Mistakes in file definitions

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05-15-2023
spoolboy

Mistakes in file definitions

There are many dumb mistakes in the file definitions in the Mopar files.

For example, any time there is a temperature "span" such as hysteresis or dead-band, if you display it in Fahrenheit it is wrong. Only the NATIVE temperature range is correct, which is often Celsius.

For example, a span of 2 degrees Celsius is about 3.6 degrees Fahrenheit, not 35.6. Although 2 degrees Celsius is equal to 35.6 degrees Fahrenheit.

There are mistakes like this all over the files. If something doesn't make sense, try setting Tools>Options>units to NATIVE.

Anyway, if something doesn't make sense in your file, it's probably wrong. Good luck! You can try getting this fixed if you're patient enough.

I wonder why simple stuff like this has been wrong for several years?
05-15-2023
LilSick

2 Attachment(s)

Attachment 131790 Attachment 131791

*what controller has the math wrong????
05-15-2023
spoolboy

Quote:

Originally Posted by LilSick

Attachment 131790 Attachment 131791

*what controller has the math wrong????

Well, they both can't be right, can they? The native file is most likely correct - in Celsius. Would it make sense that the hysterisis is 36-37 degrees? Or more like 4-5 degrees F?
07-28-2023
TdeLuca2311

Not trying to degrade or sound disrespectful... Temps going from C to F is not a direct as your would think. The correct formula is T(?F) = T(?C) ? 9/5 + 32. It is easier to just keep in mind to multiple by 1.8 then add 32 to a ?C temp to find a ?F.

So 2?C would be 35.6?F

So 3?C would be 37.4?F

So 63?C would be 145.4?F

So 110?C would be 230?F

That is correct to the pics provided by LilSick just rounded to the nearest degree.
07-28-2023
LilSick

first of all you are prolly on your phone so there are ques marks all over the place lol

what @spoolboy was saying is real

every degree of C (when you are talking about a hysteresis) is only about 2.1 F

so a hysteresis of 2 degree C is not 30+ F

its barely over 4 lol
08-01-2023
TdeLuca2311

Yes I may have used my phone but I also have it readily available for other hobbies and what not.

The conversion that you are looking for does not happen as you would think not in this setting. (Setting: 1st hand values with unlimited education and experience levels.) You are only looking at one formula and not the whole software. First you have to understand the "Baseline data for testing, tables, etc." is in Celsius. This is done by the Mopar writer's of the ECU and is the absolute standard for Celsius to be used in ANY calculation for the ECU. The HP Tuner's writers kept with the same thought of utilizing Celsius probably because it is what was used from the factory. For all writer's of computer software, if you did anymore than a simple known that then you would require more computer software writing in 0s and 1s. Some conversions, like temp, are not a direct ratio that can just be utilized. Looking at the hysteresis formulas, they use trigonometry so there is a SIN, COS, etc. If you remember anything about these, you will always know they caused a headache to try to figure out. Trying to use trigonometry one time is a bear BUT trying to use it across all possible inputs units through conversion is like humans trying to stay alive without breathing. You would need additional math formulas, known tables, etc built into the software to help and it would get too expensive to keep up. SO, to help with the understanding of these values the software IT utilizes a common value, in this case Celsius, as it value and relates back to it 100% of the time. The input Data is in Celsius and any conversions within the ECU or HP Tuners will ALWAYS relate back to it. Although when viewing the conversion outside of the HP tuners software may be wrong, the application in which the conversions are happening within the software writer is 1000% correct in trying to stay within the known unit value (I.e the Celsius Temp). The reason why is because it WORKED. This eliminates the potential of any conversion not being fully done which typically is done when consumers like us with limited knowledge behind the values.

So, YES, I would agree that the value of "hysteresis of 2 degree C is not 30 + F" if you ONLY did the math within that one formula. If you relate back to the known data from which the writer of the Mopar ECU used, the writer of the tuning software is correct with trying to reference to the known value given in Celsius by the Mopar ECU writer.

If you would like to see more info tp what I am referring to, I can provide you some links, books, etc for "temp conversions within trigonometry" as well as work with you to see how the math is being done. I am not an expert in this exact engineering math but it is the same for all engineering areas trying to stay within the known units with keeping conversions to a minimal.
08-01-2023
PurpleRam

Keep in mind all the “new v8” software was initially based on Mercedes-Benz existing programs cica 2001-02, then current Jtec was not going to meet emissions, let alone operate the 545 as intended, for 04 the realization was how limited the 03 OS was , but the programmers still had to stick to the base code.
08-01-2023
spoolboy

Quote:

Originally Posted by PurpleRam

Keep in mind all the “new v8” software was initially based on Mercedes-Benz existing programs cica 2001-02, then current Jtec was not going to meet emissions, let alone operate the 545 as intended, for 04 the realization was how limited the 03 OS was , but the programmers still had to stick to the base code.

And what does that have to do with HP Tuner's file definitions being wrong? The JTEC was paired with a stand-alone trans controller when using the RFE trans. The old "trick" was to cut the communication wire for torque management so the TCM couldn't command the PCM to retard timing. It worked, but I'm sure was less than ideal for the RFE.
08-01-2023
LilSick

which wire do you cut so your fans work like mine do?

as in perfectly : )

*thx spoolboy... had you not pointed out the glitch i mighta never seen it
08-02-2023
PurpleRam

Quote:

Originally Posted by spoolboy

And what does that have to do with HP Tuner's file definitions being wrong? The JTEC was paired with a stand-alone trans controller when using the RFE trans. The old "trick" was to cut the communication wire for torque management so the TCM couldn't command the PCM to retard timing. It worked, but I'm sure was less than ideal for the RFE.

Not much, hptuners is the hack that we use to manipulate the os all these posts are supposed to be is an explanation, you’re not wrong, but you’re not catching on to the explanation.

And that wire trick is how we ran the 727/904 behind our 03 ram in 2003.,
08-02-2023
PurpleRam

The point Tdeluca and I are making is, hpsoftware is not going to be perfect because it’s a hackers device, there are going to be issues, there’s a few tables that have miss labeled row or column axis, the Hptuner guys did a great job, skyed(sp) software was better in certain things but overall was an inferior product(v8 os) Diablo has its positives also… but it’s not perfect either.

Gm is easier, no doubt, but gm was designed from scratch, with a totally different approach, all of the hemi stuff is based on a European system, different thinking, different priorities
08-03-2023
TdeLuca2311

PurpleRam is correct with the ECU being piggybacked off a then current programming scheme from Europe. Everyone needs to understand that the underlying calculation of that program used Celsius and any deviation converting to a Fahrenheit hysteresis would not/may not be optimal for the program being used to allow the motor to run. Just as Lilslick said "its barely over 4" which in its own calculation is absolutely correct I am sure BUT that is not the starting unit of Celsius.

More simplistic approach, look at a thermometer that has C and F and do not worry about what it is currently reading. Look at 2 degree C and that is your Hysteresis degree. Now convert it to F and you should see approx 35.6 F. Within the scaling for the problem (thermometer = ECU), I said Celsius and therefor it will 35.6 F. It will be the same for all others respectively to the the degree C you choose. Now, start with a 4 degree F and convert to C. You will end up with a different result. Why? Because the initial problem was in F for the thermometer. Note, we are NOT concerning ourselves with any formulas this includes the hysteresis formula. Just values.

Switching back to the original issue, the original programming is in Celsius and any conversion factor must retain the initial input unit value. If you converted the entire programing of the ECU to F, then without a doubt it will be a the 4+ degree range.

BUT 1) then if you tried the conversion to C, It would be most definitely not be 2 degree C. It would be the degree of hysteresis that is equivalent to 4 degree F.
BUT 2) you ECU programming may not be acceptable to allow the motor to be efficient and run effectively.

Just because you change units in HP Tuners to reflect Fahrenheit does not mean the entire ECU computing software is utilizing it. Degree Celsius is within the ECU from the factory are ultimately is all that matters. HP tuners is just along for the ride keeping their consumers happy in tuning.
08-03-2023
spoolboy

Quote:

Originally Posted by TdeLuca2311

PurpleRam is correct with the ECU being piggybacked off a then current programming scheme from Europe. Everyone needs to understand that the underlying calculation of that program used Celsius and any deviation converting to a Fahrenheit hysteresis would not/may not be optimal for the program being used to allow the motor to run. Just as Lilslick said "its barely over 4" which in its own calculation is absolutely correct I am sure BUT that is not the starting unit of Celsius.

More simplistic approach, look at a thermometer that has C and F and do not worry about what it is currently reading. Look at 2 degree C and that is your Hysteresis degree. Now convert it to F and you should see approx 35.6 F. Within the scaling for the problem (thermometer = ECU), I said Celsius and therefor it will 35.6 F. It will be the same for all others respectively to the the degree C you choose. Now, start with a 4 degree F and convert to C. You will end up with a different result. Why? Because the initial problem was in F for the thermometer. Note, we are NOT concerning ourselves with any formulas this includes the hysteresis formula. Just values.

Switching back to the original issue, the original programming is in Celsius and any conversion factor must retain the initial input unit value. If you converted the entire programing of the ECU to F, then without a doubt it will be a the 4+ degree range.

BUT 1) then if you tried the conversion to C, It would be most definitely not be 2 degree C. It would be the degree of hysteresis that is equivalent to 4 degree F.
BUT 2) you ECU programming may not be acceptable to allow the motor to be efficient and run effectively.

Just because you change units in HP Tuners to reflect Fahrenheit does not mean the entire ECU computing software is utilizing it. Degree Celsius is within the ECU from the factory are ultimately is all that matters. HP tuners is just along for the ride keeping their consumers happy in tuning.

You're surely in a country that uses Celsius, so this doesn't bother you as much. The point I'm making, is this is all math. The tables are defined via math formulas from Hex. I bet if this was a GM platform, it would have been fixed years ago.
08-03-2023
Bill@HPTuners

Quote:

Originally Posted by spoolboy

You're surely in a country that uses Celsius, so this doesn't bother you as much. The point I'm making, is this is all math. The tables are defined via math formulas from Hex. I bet if this was a GM platform, it would have been fixed years ago.

I'm sorry you're having troubles and we'd love to help you. Have you already opened up a support ticket where you've reported the temp issues? If so, do you have your ticket number so that we can review the status? If not, please open a support ticket here: https://support.hptuners.com
08-03-2023
spoolboy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill@HPTuners

I'm sorry you're having troubles and we'd love to help you. Have you already opened up a support ticket where you've reported the temp issues? If so, do you have your ticket number so that we can review the status? If not, please open a support ticket here: https://support.hptuners.com

I tried a support ticket years ago when I first discovered it, but support didn't understand the issue.

Since you are here in the thread and understand the issue, and it's across all the OS that I have seen, can you fix it without a support ticket?
08-03-2023
Bill@HPTuners

Quote:

Originally Posted by spoolboy

Since you are here in the thread and understand the issue, and it's across all the OS that I have seen, can you fix it without a support ticket?

No.
08-04-2023
spoolboy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill@HPTuners

No.

Fair enough. I'm done providing free tuning support for your product on this forum. See ya!
08-04-2023
TdeLuca2311

Quote:

Originally Posted by spoolboy

You're surely in a country that uses Celsius, so this doesn't bother you as much. The point I'm making, is this is all math. The tables are defined via math formulas from Hex. I bet if this was a GM platform, it would have been fixed years ago.

No, I am in the the US that utilizes the customary unit of Fahrenheit. I understand the use of Celsius AND Fahrenheit because I have had PLENTY of hours of training using temperatures within formulas. We were given problems in degree C and asked to provide results in customary units within US ( degree F) and vice versa. This gave us a proper understanding of unit for measurements allowing us to talk to future potential colleagues from around the world. Yes, I do not do much with temperatures now days and I did have to look back to see what hysteresis was.

Yes, I agree with your statement "...this is all math." BUT you have to willing to understand the underlying math in which the system was development is not as simplistic as one individual formula or one computing software.. In this case, the ECU system setup as one temperature unit that CANNOT and WILL NOT be change by the HPT's VCM software (VCM). The VCM is just reading what is on the ECU and allowing you to change those units to meet your preferred viewing. The VCM is ALLOWING you to change units since it has to write it back to the ECU in which the "data" was given. It is not about your likes or dislikes to a specific unit BUT ONLY to what SPECIFIC UNIT the ECU MUST be written to. The VCM is doing just that. We all should know by now that the computer language when driven down to the lowest level is nothing but 0s and 1s. Imagine you switching that to 3s and 4s. It just wont work for what the system was designed for.
08-04-2023
LilSick

exactly

so the bottom line is we really oughta keep this shit in C

hp tuners prolly shoulda told us that up front cuz we all know that they figured this all out way before we did, but they just wanna sell devices and credits

and i lack power

i can not make them do shit

in the mean time we have people driving around with their cooling fans on high all the time and not knowing why

"fan tunes for sale"