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Im tring to get the boost to go up but im failing at doing something. Ive played around with the optimum torque table and its not helping. Need some more direction on this. I would like to get this around 210kpa or 220 in that range. Here is the log and tune. If im understanding what im reading its lower the optimum torque table, then raise the torque to load table. I feel as if im need to adjust another table. Getting frustrated a bit.
Attachment 127195Attachment 127196
Attachment 127202
give it a shot
Thank you. Here is the log. seams like I feel a clip or something. but kpa is still down.Attachment 127206
I'm curious why your fuel is set like that (pix below). It doesn't look like something someone would normally do so I can only assume you copied from somewhere? I was curious what and where it was from.
It doesn't really seem bad, but it wouldn't really work for me, too lean at low rpm and high load. It would cause timing retard and retard pulls boost. Took me a while to figure that out but I see the pattern and the more timing retard there is the more boost it pulls.
I also see your ignition timing map is a little retarded at peak load and higher rpm. I can only get 91 octane so I have to retard even more, and retard a lot more of the map all the way down to 13% load. So I was curious because in the first log you posted it was retarding like I'd expect, but the second log it barely retarded at all. Did you do something? Mine does exactly this when I add alcohol to bump octane, which I'd need to have ~25% Ethanol to prevent retard using the oem spark tables.
Or maybe your low octane retard map kicked in? I have that disabled since you can't tell when it kicks in, which obviously make it impossible to dial in timing or to see what fuel map changes do, or actual fuel changes do.
For boost there are a couple things I have to have set higher than yours. The Max Load under Airflow/General/Max Desired Load I have at 300 or more. 250 works ok, 200 woud kill it. Not sure why its that way because most don't need to go that high, but fyi.
The Torque to Load I'm still trying to figure out but setting peak to anything below about 220 will hurt me. 200 will kill me.
Driver Input under Torque Management/General I see you set some good peak #'s. I have to have it up high as well but I also have to have a wider range set high. So from ~2k to 6k it's 900 or more. I think I have it at 1200 right now, not that it helps but I'm pushing it further out of the way to be sure it isn't bothering me. If I used yours I could kiss all my higher rpm power bye.
I see your Optimum Load (Monitoring) is set higher. I set mine higher once and it cost me a good chunk of power. I forget what I set it to but I think 90? Not sure why or what that chart even does, but that was my experience. I suppose it's possible that it's part of what calculates power? If so, then the higher the #'s are the more power it thinks it's making and it will control boost and throttle earlier to not exceed xx power. I need to experiment with that chart more but it's back burner. I can say that mine runs fine on the oem #'s.
There's also the Normalized Torque, if you want to tinker with that. You lower the # to make more power. Apparently it's a reference # used in the math that calculates power, so the lower the # the lower your torque reading, and thus it has to try harder to hit the # it wants to hit. So in theory, I suppose, if set 20% lower then you should have to make 25% more power to hit the limiters? I'm guessing, but that's the general idea; lower the # and you should net some power. Just note that the torque reading on your screen is the same the ECU sees so don't freak out when it's suddenly lower.
Exhaust temps are another. My power will always be low if I use the oem Ex temps. I see some people clip them a little here and there, but not by much. I'm not sure why others can run oem #'s and I cannot. I have to reduce the primary fuel to peak ~1650 and 2nd fuel and EGR peaks at 1700. Shift I have set to 770. If I lower them further I don't notice anything so this why I have them set there. If I raise them 50F, to 1700/1750, I seems to hurt power but not a lot. If I raise it to 1750/1800 it most certainly does hurt it.
Attachment 127279
That fuel table is pretty much stock. I adjusted a little in the transition. The gl550 I have is completely stock. No modifications. The timing and fuel should not change much. I'm not trying to over write and complicate things. most of the way these maps look there built in for some percentage of increase. Obviously we want to adjust a bit more than it has. The knock control is very aggressive in these new vehicles. I don't want to disturb much. I only took some timing out because of the knock retard it was doing up top. Keep it safe. Nothing wrong with having knock its a safety. When it pulls 2 degrees its not bad its ok. When it pulls 14 or 15 we have an issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by chevota
Ive been working with the torque tables and its frustrating learning them. Keep your clips in are good To keep it safe. I dont want to raise the clips to high yet just so I can calibrate it proberly to keep the power levels where I want them. Goal is to have the load through the rpm band just under the clips for safety. I still have work to figure out the tables in the optimum torque and load percentage table.Quote:
Originally Posted by chevota
To turn the boost up Is this correct. I'm just trying to get familiar with what I'm doing. I went back to a stock file and modified just minimal stuff. I kept increasing the tables by small amounts To generally see what is working. At one point I'm sure something has to get adjusted somewhere else.
I labeled as follows
torque to load is increase of load to percentage that is available up to 80 percent in the table which is inversed to optimum engine torque to 100 percent if table is maxed.
Maximum desired load is essentially my target boost that I am commanding.
The rest are clips of some sort.
I would like to know if there are more tables I should be considering when making these adjustments. I feel like I am missing something. The last log I did with creeping up on this I was at 195kp of boost
I found your oem map in a different post, which has the normal M278 map in it. Your version was just unusual looking is all.
The problem with the limiters, imo, is there are waaaay too many of them, and of course set too low. Pretty sure one limiter would be fine. So unless you move all of them out of the way you won't know what's holding you back.
The Max Air Load bit me in a similar way me because I only raised it ~50%, thinking that's more than enough. It was not.
Despite all the limiters (that I'm aware of) moved out of the way, something is still holding me back and it's driving me nuts. Maybe something right in front of me that HP labeled wrong, or isn't available via HP in the first place?
So even with all those limiters out of the way it still can't hurt itself. The only thing I have to watch out for is overboost below 4k. Beyond 4k it can't physically overboost, and that's where I have trouble because it's pulling what boost I do have and I don't know why.
The Optimum Torque I've played with but I can't tell the difference. Optimum Torque (Monitoring) I'd leave alone, I lost power bumping that.
Torque to Load, Max Air Load and Driver Input are all biggies. So imo your high Torque to Load isn't panning out because the other two are holding you back. So I'd bring those up a good bit, and maybe lower Tq to load down to 220 and start over. Mine is high because I'm chasing that boost I'm losing, but it isn't helping. If I had it high down low, with the others high, I'd imagine boost would go through the roof starting ~2500. Even now it easily spikes past 20.
Are you watching boost psi before the throttle? It didn't show up on my scanner. You should also watch Lamda from the O2's, which can be quite different than commanded.
Rather than explain all the little things I just attached my latest tune and you can check it out and make whatever adjustments you want.
Attachment 127363
optimum torque is how much is available of 100 percent. So 80% of power that the engine has. this allows you to control how much you can use. That's how I see it. Im only looking to increase 20 percent power. I really only want to adjust what I need and keep the limiters in tact. driver input is how much the throttle opens compared to the pedal. This is good for throttle feel to input. This will not raise the boost.
Attachment 127445
If you notice the boost was adjusted with the torque to load table. I did raise the clip by 10 percent there. This actually caused the car to shift faster Through the rpm. Also caused harder shifts for some reason. The tranny does look at loads the engine has to make adjustments also.
Optimum was explained to me in that way, and several others ways. I think maybe nobody knows what it does. All I know is it doesn't do anything on my car. The oem values of ~75 or bumped to 100, no change. I even tried changing the scaling from 180 to 220, which didn't help. I also raised the scaling on Torque to Load from 80 to 100, nothing.
Fyi I changed the scaling on Lambda once, which was a disaster. I only changed the 170 row to 200 and my trims at all rpm/load went to like 30 or something stupid. The 140 and below rows were were all normal values so I don't know why.
Lets compare notes on what happens from pedal to torque output, since I don't know what happnen once it gets to Optimum or Torque to Load. I've read conflicting theories but I don't believe any of them based on what I see. So the Pedal Characteristics is the pedal output command. The "Mode" is how far you physically push the pedal, the values below it, in color, are the command as a result. Apparently that feeds into Desired Torque on the same page tab. Or maybe that's backwards but whichever chart is first it's the same result so who cares.
The output from there = 0-100. Where does that go? Based on how changes respond I can only conclude it does NOT go into Torque to Load first, so it must go to Optimum Torque, then Torque to Load?
The left column % In Optimum goes to 180 so clearly a max value of 100 does not go there, but instead must plug into the chart cells (colored). Oem chart values only go to ~76, which = 180 Engine Load %. This makes sense since raising the values from 76 to 100 did nothing for me because they all end up being 180. So if we had 100 going in we have a 180 out, which goes into Torque to Load? Again it can only go into the cells since the Engine Torque % only goes to 80. 180 ends up being ~75 Torque. If this is true then raising the values in Torque to Load, like I did, would push 180 down into the 60% range and lower the torque. It does not. So either way I look it, Optimum or Tq to Load first, it doesn't pan out.
From my perspective it seems Optimum isn't even part of the loop. If it were not, and the 0-100 throttle output went straight to Torque to Load, then that would make sense and it's what I see when I make changes. If Optimum came after Tq to Load then it would act drastically different than what I'm seeing with my changes. So imo Optimum Load is not in the loop.
I've also heard that Optimum (Monitoring) is in the loop as well. If it is then it just made things much more complicated because where in the loop does it sit. And why did raising #'s in it reduce my power. i don't think it's in the loop, but instead I think it's used to calculate the torque used by the limiters, so my raising it raised the power it thinks it's making, so it lowers boost. It's the only theory I have but it fits.
Driver Input, under Torque Management/General is torque related, not throttle, and adjusting the #'s up most certainly does make more power.
I can't figure it out exactly because it isn't a straight up limiter. What I mean is above 2k it's a limiter for sure, but the lower the rpm the more it acts like a command. If you raise the the lower rpm #'s you will feel it at part throttle. Eg I have 1000rpm set at 550, oem is 400, and I feel that % change when I barely give it gas. Even down at 5% throttle so it's a command at that point, not a limiter. Then around 1500rpm or so on up it's a power limiter (boost). I need to keep the #'s ~850 or more or I'll lose power. If I end up making more power some other way I don't want this at 850 and limit it, so I keep it higher.
It's still wrong, per the chart, because all the oem values say torque, in ftlbs, and they exceed the oem power by quite a bit. Plus the fact I have to raise the crap outta them to get more power. So whatever this chart is, it does do something, I don't know what exactly.
So you can try to make 20% more power without bumping these #'s, but it most certainly would not work on my car. Just keep in mind that if you have Tq to Load sky high like you have and not much is happening, then it's something else and likely the two I mentioned.
A Tq to load of 200 will probably give you the 20% you want. Tq to Load of 100 is basically normally asparated. 200 is ~15psi boost. So 250 is basically asking for 22psi and that far exceeds your 20%. That's why I thought you should lower it and look elsewhere.
From what I see, when you floor it, the only time the throttle is not fully open is thanks to the tranny. Exceptions would include manually forcing too much boost, then the ECU will close throttle to control it (ask me how I know). Of course traction control, and maybe other special cirumstances like overheating. So basically the tranny is to blame for any throttling, until you hit 4th gear, where it finally stops dictating how much fun you're having. In 4th+ it's all ECU control, which is boost control, not throttle.
This makes my 200th post, which I see makes me an "Advanced Tuner". Funny....
This table is more of a monitor or a clip from what I understand. If the vehicle cant reach 100% of the value it should trigger the under boost code. Im thinking if this is jacked up too high and it cant make the percent of commanded it will trip. Or say you have only 50% and its Making more it will trip. My theory is adjust this table just above what it is capable of what the vehicle is doing. You can rescale all you want does the same thing. You should adjust the torque to load table and Make it work below the optimum table. Im guessing you will have better luck.Quote:
Originally Posted by chevota
Driver input is exactly what it means when you command more torque the vehicle will accel faster because you commanded it. Your only getting as much of what is available in the torque to load table.Quote:
Originally Posted by chevota
Its hard for me too trying to figure it all out myself. I think there could be something missing in the data logging pids. Hard to know exactly where you are in some of these tables.Quote:
Originally Posted by chevota
I do know one thing for sure: I only somewhat understand all this crap. I'm been working on it for a year now and I'm still in the dark.
After our chat I decided to tinker with Optimum again and raised the values to 100 and made Optimum Monitoring match. Changed the scaling on Torque to Load from 80 to 100, assuming Optimum feeds that so 100 optimum would fit the 100 row in Tq to Load. The Tq to Load #'s in the 100% row were 250, which is where I had it before. Zero gain. I guess that's better than last time where I lost power, but my power is down at the moment so hard to say.
Then I changed the Tq to Load scalng back to 80, left 250 in there, and set Optimum and Monitoring to oem, which is ~75. Zero change. I will tinker a little more by raising the scaling on Optimum up, but it makes me nervous since I cannot raise scaling on monitoring. Makes me think it'll shut down on me, which is very risky where I live.
My car also has issues so it's possible these things are working but something else is screwing it up. Eg; if I load the oem tune my power is pathetic, nowhere near the claimed 400HP. Boost, excluding spikes, is ~7.5 at peak and quickly tapers down to <3. 0-60 I think was 6 sec? With an OE Tune 5.5 sec. Oem bone stock 0-60 is supposed to be 4.3 to 4.8 depending who you ask.
So really all I've managed to gain with all this tinkering and raising #'s way up is net what is likely oem power, with a best 0-60 of 4.5.
With the oem tune in it the scanner says I'm making exactly oem power, it just isn't. So I assume it's doing what it thinks it right, but either the data it's receiving, or the math, is bad.
With my tuning work it says I'm exceeding 600hp and sometimes even exceeding >800ftlbs, neither of which is possible. So all I can gather is this is the error showing itslef and my estimation is the error is bumping the power # by 50%, which cuts actual power by a third, is correct. A 600hp reading making the same 0-60 time as the oem 400hp makes sense.
What's also weird is my boost is not netting the power it should either, so even if my avg boost across the board is higher than oem, it's still no better than stock.
So thinking it's a calculating error, I lowered Normalized Torque, which "they" say the math for power factors in. Lowering the # apparently lowers the power reading so the ecu tries harder to hit the #. All it really does is lower the net power reading in the scanner by the same, actual power is virtually the same. I first lowered it from 885 to 796, and it does "seem" to make a little tiny bit of extra power but nowhere near 10%. More like 2%. Then I lowered it to 752 which did nothing at all, except lower the power reading in the scanner by 17%. phuk...
So I usually leave it at 796 because it doesn't seem to hurt and 2% is 2%.
Check this out: When cold, just after I start it, I do have more power, as in the power I'd expect with the tune and well above oem. I can't do the following when leaving home, neighbors n all, so this is after work. So I fire it up, say water temp is 100F, then I leave the driveway and by the time I'm in second gear I give it maybe 1/4 throttle at say 2500rpm. It'll spin the tires with ease, enough that the car starts getting sideways in a second. If in that exact same location, same everything but warmed up, 1/4 throttle just accelerates normally. If I floor it (warmed up) I just get the usual power. The usual power means "if" the tires break free it can't spin them nearly as fast and certainly won't get sideways.
Fyi that extra power just after start is gone 30-60 seconds later, long before it's actually warmed up. So how does that work? My settings in the editor are all set to make the same power from ~220F on down. I raised that to 250F as a test, no change. I raised my Overheat Prevention, limp mode, emergency power, everything available, no change. I also changed the cams so there is no cold or Cat heating mode, no change. I wondered if maybe open loop nets the power and closed loop kills it, but that doesn't matter either. It's as if it's teasing me, saying I'm here, all you gotta do is figure it out. Sigh...
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I looked at your tune again and all I can say is compare to this one and see if you want to try anything: Attachment 128101
This tune is from a few months ago but it's the last tune that worked well for me. It's better than the one I posted previously, but basically it's just a second example to look at.
Just note my Fuel Slope and Inj Pulse Mult are different, and some Spark settings are very different, which are all set to work with 30% ethanol. So obviously adjust to match yours but note that even on gas I still zero out the Low Octane, use the same Cat retard (disabled but it works anyway). Plus I bump the Min Spark quite a bit simply because it retards too much for no reason. There is no excuse to go to -20 when 0 doesn't knock, all -20 does is make the car fall on its face. Imo, and in my car, but adjust it as you see fit.
The Fuel settings work on gas or the 30% eth just fine. This tune the Target Lamba is oem, only the 2nd fuel is different, and it works really well, maybe even better than making both the same. It switches to 2nd, or a blend of the two as needed. Not sure how it decides that but it does work and has a crisper throttle compared to making the Target Lambda richer. Maybe it keeps it lean until richer is actually nessasary? The only drawback is sometimes it's a little slow to richen when needed so I get a some retard. I dunno, just try it and see what you think. Your map is, as mentioned, would not work in my car so I wonder how, of it, it's working in yours. Maybe mine is F'd up and yours runs right, who knows.
The rpm limits are raised since the oem limits are a complete fail for me, and I'd assume for you too? The P/N limits are set to 1800 because I have bad luck, but I don't have any need to exceed 1800 anyway.
The Exhaust Temps are clipped to a lower temp but not as much as I normally do, yet it worked fine in this tune. Your temps were oem and since it made a big difference for me I think it's worth a shot. How/why it works I have no clue.
Any luck with your boost? Better, awesome, fail?
I posted a couple days ago about settings I "believe" are key to netting full boost to redline, or at least the shift point.
Thread: "Optimum Torque, Normalized Torque, Torque to Load: Calculations, Effects, p061, etc"
Still don't understand Optimum Torque and Monitoring but I wrote about some recent clues I thought you might be interested in.
At minimum it's some info to play with and ponder, but I am curious about any luck you may have had.