Supercharged Hemi Tuning Smooth boost?

Hello and good day.

I own a 2010 5.7 manual transmission car with a kenne bell 2.8 liter supercharger. Is it possible to tune this engine with full pedal operation to run with the supercharger? Would using a smooth boost offer a more linear tune? I'd like the car to run and drive as it did stock. The light switch effect and lowered WOT throttle voltage just doesn't work for me. Can anybody steer me in the right direction to make this possible? I'd really love to continue modifying the tune myself but I'm not sure which path to take.

You need a good tuner to dial in your (VE) Volumetric Efficiencies. Some are easier or respond better than others. Edelbrock uses a spring for some resistance along with vacuum diaphragm, and they provide sensitivity settings for personal preferences.

I'm not experienced with the Ken Bell, but do run a Magnuson on one and an Edelbrock E-Force the other and both have really linear throttles. Any modern day blower mfg shouldn't be producing units that need an aftermarket Band-Aid throttle device..

Interview some tuners, possibly at local dyno shops.

http://alcphoto.net/charger/mods/boo...ent_spring.JPG

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Originally Posted by 2therock

You need a good tuner to dial in your (VE) Volumetric Efficiencies. Some are easier or respond better than others. Edelbrock uses a spring for some resistance along with vacuum diaphragm, and they provide sensitivity settings for personal preferences.

I'm not experienced with the Ken Bell, but do run a Magnuson on one and an Edelbrock E-Force the other and both have really linear throttles. Any modern day blower mfg shouldn't be producing units that need an aftermarket Band-Aid throttle device..

Interview some tuners, possibly at local dyno shops.

http://alcphoto.net/charger/mods/boo...ent_spring.JPG

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Do you think volumetric efficiency tuning would adjust the fuel enough for 2-3 pounds boost while in closed loop?

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Originally Posted by kennygene

Do you think volumetric efficiency tuning would adjust the fuel enough for 2-3 pounds boost while in closed loop?

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I don't know. I'm not a tuner. I know when I installed the e-force I had a less than optimal tune performed on a dyno. My throttle was horrible and I went to another tuner. He found my injectors calibrated for much higher rated ones, and had to remove 25% of the fuel in the VE. Its very nice now. I suggest finding another tuner.

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Originally Posted by kennygene

lowered WOT throttle voltage

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Lowering the WOT voltage threshold is possibly the worse thing you can do on these vehicles when boosted. It makes the light switch effect even more pronounced!
Have you made any changes to your TB voltage/airflow models yet?
This significantly improved the driveability of my boosted 3.6 pentastar and gave it a much more "linear" feeling pedal and response.

https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...nse-with-a-S-C

The tune that I received with the supercharger lowered the voltage some. Then, I lowered it some more which actually seemed to help with the light throttle/boost situation at cruising speeds.

But, I'd rather set the voltage back to stock and tune the throttle pedal. Did you tune your pedal or have it tuned? Does your car feel remotely as good as stock?

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Originally Posted by kennygene

Did you tune your pedal or have it tuned? Does your car feel remotely as good as stock?

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Did you go to the link I posted above? Mine will be quite different as its a 3.6 on an GPEC2 but the same concepts will still apply over most FCA ECUs
I personally invested quite a lot of time tweaking my TB airflow models/DD and flywheel torque tables which significantly helped with the throttle response and driveability.
Its not perfect but its infinitely better than what the stock tables did.

From my experience, lowering the "ETC Pedal WOT" voltage just makes the TB "snap" open to actual WOT earlier and thus, exaggerates the "light switch" effect.

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Originally Posted by HaasExp

Did you go to the link I posted above? Mine will be quite different as its a 3.6 on an GPEC2 but the same concepts will still apply over most FCA ECUs
I personally invested quite a lot of time tweaking my TB airflow models/DD and flywheel torque tables which significantly helped with the throttle response and driveability.
Its not perfect but its infinitely better than what the stock tables did.

From my experience, lowering the "ETC Pedal WOT" voltage just makes the TB "snap" open to actual WOT earlier and thus, exaggerates the "light switch" effect.

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I sure did. I have read that thread a few times. With my car being a 2010, the tables are quite different than yours.

If I'm reading correctly, you turned off NN while tuning? Did you turn it back on when completed? Does the car drive anywhere near as linear as stock?

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Originally Posted by kennygene

I sure did. I have read that thread a few times. With my car being a 2010, the tables are quite different than yours.

If I'm reading correctly, you turned off NN while tuning? Did you turn it back on when completed? Does the car drive anywhere near as linear as stock?

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Yea the NGCs are a bit different to the GPECs. Would be interesting to see your tune and a corresponding log of the issues you are experiencing.
Once I messed with it all I got the throttle response to be very predictable and smooth, even in the transition region when the bypass shut.
The NGC ECUs do have a lot more parameters regarding the "pedal follower" mode which may be in your favor and actually work. This mode has shown merit in the GPECs but unfortunately they seem to be missing quite a few related variables to make the pedal follower mode useful.

I turned NN off and tuned by VE. If the NN is then turned back on it will neglect the changes done to the VE tables and resort back to the "virtual" VE tables. These are the ones tuned by the NN trainer.
In terms of throttle response, there doesn't seem to be any effect from having the NN on or off, well at least from what I've experienced tuning N/A 3.6's on GPEC2's

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HaasExp

Yea the NGCs are a bit different to the GPECs. Would be interesting to see your tune and a corresponding log of the issues you are experiencing.
Once I messed with it all I got the throttle response to be very predictable and smooth, even in the transition region when the bypass shut.
The NGC ECUs do have a lot more parameters regarding the "pedal follower" mode which may be in your favor and actually work. This mode has shown merit in the GPECs but unfortunately they seem to be missing quite a few related variables to make the pedal follower mode useful.

I turned NN off and tuned by VE. If the NN is then turned back on it will neglect the changes done to the VE tables and resort back to the "virtual" VE tables. These are the ones tuned by the NN trainer.
In terms of throttle response, there doesn't seem to be any effect from having the NN on or off, well at least from what I've experienced tuning N/A 3.6's on GPEC2's

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The original Kenne Bell tune and the beginning of the modified tune is included in this thread. I have made some more changes to the WOT AFRs that are a little different. I appreciate you looking into it.

https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...-Kenne-Bell-SC

Just as shown in 2therock’s post, in my experience, the Edelbrock E-Force for the HEMI, the E-Force for the 5.0 Coyote, and most recently the Whipple on my LS3, all have a little nonlinearity and it is emtirely related to how the diaphragm, vacuum and assist spring work together to control the supercharger bypass valve. If you can, install a boost gauge and put a tie wrap a buddies phone under the hood looking at that valve and Facetime with it while u drive to watch that valve and the boost gauge. I bet you’ll find there is a value of manifold pressure where that bypass slams shut and suddenly you are at part throttle, cruising 30mph out of a grocery store with 8psi of boos making your car want to surge forward, but of course theres no enrichment, no timing, because your foot is not at Wide-open-throttle position. The actuator needs to be changed or the assist spring adjusted so that valve opening is much less sensitive to changes in manifold pressure.

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Originally Posted by ngc1068

Just as shown in 2therock’s post, in my experience, the Edelbrock E-Force for the HEMI, the E-Force for the 5.0 Coyote, and most recently the Whipple on my LS3, all have a little nonlinearity and it is emtirely related to how the diaphragm, vacuum and assist spring work together to control the supercharger bypass valve. If you can, install a boost gauge and put a tie wrap a buddies phone under the hood looking at that valve and Facetime with it while u drive to watch that valve and the boost gauge. I bet you’ll find there is a value of manifold pressure where that bypass slams shut and suddenly you are at part throttle, cruising 30mph out of a grocery store with 8psi of boos making your car want to surge forward, but of course theres no enrichment, no timing, because your foot is not at Wide-open-throttle position. The actuator needs to be changed or the assist spring adjusted so that valve opening is much less sensitive to changes in manifold pressure.

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That's exactly what I'm talking about. And, that seems to be the issue.

I would love to be able to use that boost but I don't think the factory ecm is capable. I sure hope I'm wrong. Anybody have any ideas?

I spoke with Tony A. @Edelbrock about things asking about the adjustable boost settings and some confuse with boost amount adjustment. Its a great feature, on long highway trips I put it on mild to be able to jostle and stay off the mpg's better. I actually left it there for a couple months (forgot about it) and was OK with it. Its on 2 now. On one you will be barking tires more and its fun.
I wish I had videoed it on the dyno where I had it on 3 so my scan logging would be smoother, have no doubt when its time to boost it slaps closed with authority.

Kenne Bell sells different bypass valve actuator setups, have u talked to them directly aboit your problem? Its almost certainly related to that vacuum assisted bypass valve mechanical setup, its not tune related. At least thats my experience on two Edelbrock E-Forces and a Whipple.

https://kennebell.net/products/acces...-bypass-valve/

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Originally Posted by ngc1068

Kenne Bell sells different bypass valve actuator setups, have u talked to them directly aboit your problem? Its almost certainly related to that vacuum assisted bypass valve mechanical setup, its not tune related. At least thats my experience on two Edelbrock E-Forces and a Whipple.

https://kennebell.net/products/acces...-bypass-valve/

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I spoke with a Kenne Bell several times. They seemed to think it was a tune issue and not the bypass valve. They were happy to talk about it but never offered a solution.

I think I probably called them about 20 times before I realized there was goin to be 0 assistance offered.