09 Chall RT + TSP STG3 CAM NA - constant false knock after 5,7kRPM

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Originally Posted by rays04gtx

I myself I'm on the fence about your #2 , I think when you are trying to find an Issue, make things as simple as possible, I also feel that tuning banks separately is more of a final detail....My one son and I differ on that point greatly

Curious Question Where did all the Jasper Engine talk come from , did I miss it in this thread ? I thought what you are working with is a stock 09 Long block with a cam (and new springs)

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I'm sorry, but did not get this part :)
What does the "Jasper Engine" means?
Yes, it is stock 2009 Challenger RT, stock pistons, injectors everything beside:
1. Valve springs from Comp 26918
2. TSP Cam
3. Torque converter for 2800 stall (i think it hasn't got any impact)
4. Long Tube headers.
5. 525LPH Fuel pump.

Edit: allright I get the point why You propose to copy VE maps, but I would not recommend it while You can log AFR from both banks independently. That's the game changer I suppose. :)

honestly , 2 reasons ,
1) I find it's easier to isolate an issue when both banks are as close as possible, Many times when I come across a new issue on a previously tuned car, I try to eliminate any deviations from bank to bank. , side note in my experience if the difference between each bank's VE table is more then 5% per cell , there's a problem with the "health" of the short block.
2) 09 PCMs are know to have some oddities , when it comes to VE tables, just because the switch says one thing the PCM is doing the opposite, I've had a few that seem to jump from V2 disabled to enabled during driving.

as for 44453 the faster you can get the PCM to make it's adjustments the less "thinking" it has to do, also when you are commanding a large transition from PT to WOT, it's a faster "ramp up" to WOT values, I do the same for decrease , the faster you get it to go back to "normal" the better.

09 PCM's are know for some oddities. NN has some serious issues in the 09 program.....search around on this site for 09 issues you'll find a few threads that talk about it, mostly boosted issues but large NA cams will act up.

we had one 09 come through the shop 6 years ago , we fought with it for weeks, between Benny and I we spent hours on the VE tables, we'd get them with in 3% of each other, and the next log trip, Total ve Bank 1 would jump as much as 15% above and 10% below Base VE bank 1values for up to 10 seconds of drive time....a few times on the chassis dyno , Bank one would have as much as 4% difference between Base and Total VE Bank1 ...... the next week bank 2 would do funky crap during log trips.

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Originally Posted by Pablito[PL]

I'm sorry, but did not get this part :)
What does the "Jasper Engine" means?
Yes, it is stock 2009 Challenger RT, stock pistons, injectors everything beside:
1. Valve springs from Comp 26918
2. TSP Cam
3. Torque converter for 2800 stall (i think it hasn't got any impact)
4. Long Tube headers.
5. 525LPH Fuel pump.

Edit: allright I get the point why You propose to copy VE maps, but I would not recommend it while You can log AFR from both banks independently. That's the game changer I suppose. :)

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LOL we're responding as the other types...all good, all good

Jasper is a company that sells remanufactured engines, Db5249 mentioned it in a response, I wasn't sure why he mentioned it,

I've had some issues with 2800 stall in 09/10 PCMs with TSP's stage 3 being 223/232 @ .050 the idle "bounce's off the converter and causes idle surge , it's not too bad with the NAG1 but the trucks with the RFE65 can be a nightmare........but ...that won't cause what you are going through.

Start logging Injector duty , TSP's3 is big cam you could be running out of Duty cycle , if it goes above 85/87% for any length of time , you are in "upgrade area" we always jump up to 6.4 or 60LBS Injectors with any cam over 220 duration @050.

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Originally Posted by Pablito[PL]

Kill me please, I have no idea.

Just installed the kit from Compcam 26918

(.6" conicals)

...to answer I have to find in data sheet.

It is my 5th set, and never had any issues with high RPMS up to 7k.

But first time with TSP Cam.

Maybe here lies the problem.

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maybe. there could be a number of mechanical reasons why its seeing noise. or none at all

I’m not a fan of TSP’s cam specs, but the quality of their cores is top notch, not to say that it could not be the cam, but highly unlikely. About a month ago I received a set of comp springs(for a ls build) that had 2 springs whose closing
& open pressure was off by 40lbs , if I didn’t catch it when I did, it would of caused some knock for the tuner to deal with.

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Originally Posted by LilSick

maybe. there could be a number of mechanical reasons why its seeing noise. or none at all

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I just checked.
Those springs are quite good:
Coil bind height: 1.14"
Seat pressure: 125lbs
Spring rate 372lbs.

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Originally Posted by Pablito[PL]

I just checked.
Those springs are quite good:
Coil bind height: 1.14"
Seat pressure: 125lbs
Spring rate 372lbs.

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Those are good specs, so we now know the springs are good.

Those are good advertised specs but how do you know a spring is as advertised without checking it? Like purple just stated, sometimes you throw em in in a spring tester and find out their QC ain't all that.

And how do you know what pressure or clearance you have, or how far from bind they are, if you don't know what height they are installed at?

He has tried FA (verified with a wide band) and pulling timing. Might be time to check the stuff that got overlooked? Correct pushrod length is crucial in a hyd lifter motor.

i have tuned a lot of Mopar cars, trans tq management holds the cars back a lot on the early cars. i was building and tuning supercharged srt mopar cars before a hell-cat was even a concept. the stock transmission is more resilient than you think. if you don't change your fluid and maintain your transmission it will fail. but a good mopar trans is fine N/A

So you think the tcm is causing him to see noise above 5700?

(I see You both Gentlemen are changing signifficantly FA Incr 44453. Changed factor from 0.0005 to 0.5 will push too much of fuel when I step on the pedal i think.)

you should put the stock injector values back in, use the timing, and ve tables I sent you, use the exact power enrichment strategy I sent you. and the vvt cam angles in the tune I sent you to start off with. keep rpm max at 6100 to start with. get the motor dialed in like that. LOG BANK1 AND BANK2 LTFT+STFT Seperatly And adjust the VE TABLES I SENT YOU AS GOOD REFERENCE!!!!!!!!! these motors do like slightly different fueling from bank to bank it is not much but they do. HEMI MOTORS LOVE FUEL and 12.5 IS TOO LEAN DESPITE WHAT YOU READ. THEY LIKE 11 AT WOT AND ITS WAY SAFER... Hell Send me your stock file and ill do it for you. People are here to help if you let them.

i can't view his log because I wont upgrade my hp tuners software. but I think he needs to send us a stock file, ill update his fueling and timing to get him in the ballpark. Make Sure He Is Logging Comanded EQ and BANK1/BANK2 LTFT+STFT Seperatly with their own graphs as well,

build a graph P-ratio vs rpv vs commanded EQ (lambda) referencing the wideband for eq percentage variance. swap wide band between bank one and two, to get both ve tables dialed in. I'm More concerned if he has the wideband wired up currently showing a direct 1-1 ratio gauge vs log. Hopefully, he is using at least an AEM 300 series with AEM can protocol so he doesn't have to calibrate the gauges input. make him aware no need to desensitize knock sensors. start from scratch basically. pulling 8deg something is wrong with the motor. as you mentioned Valve and seat pressure. tuning 7k rpm on a cast crank isn't great either. SRT motors have forged cranks. helps out a lot. personally, for reliability on a mild street toy I see no need to turn 7k. 6200 max.

My money is on injectors, looking at his data in the tune, he’s over “duty cycle”

thats possible. i had thought about what db was saying too... that maybe his wideband is not calibrated correctly so maybe he didnt really have 11 11.5 etc

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Originally Posted by LilSick

that's possible. I had thought about what db was saying too... that maybe his wideband is not calibrated correctly so perhaps he didn't really have 11 11.5 etc

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Also, i see we forgot to mention the issue these engines have with the valve guides breaking off and clattering around on a valve at rpm this will cause knock readings. a mild annoying ticking noise is usually present as well. this is something i have seen commonly and when the broken guide tip finally breaks off the valve say goodbye to a piston and head. i am sending another revised file for you. just try it out and go from there. remember to clear codes after flashing as it will sometimes put trans in 3rd gear limp mode. Cheers

Attachment 127508

Gentlemen,
I would like to repeat that I Appreciate Your attention a lot.
It is a fair point from LilSlick to review the valve train. On my defense i can only say, i bought valve springs as a kit dedicated for this engine, with shims, retainers etc. always installing by the book from CompCam, and never had any issues.
However, I'm aware that it is worth to check and measure what I can.

As for the widebands, I have something different than AEM, they are a factory sets with own controllers, characteristics specs are included how to scale their 0-5V output. Two independent sets, bought with one year of interval (that is also minimalise risk of production failure).
Wideband itself is a Bosh LSU 4.9.

Having that said, I'm quite confident that they are working correctly. They are reflecting corrections in close loop as well if that makes any sense to You.

Purple, I'm quite confident that I'm still in the range of DC, otherwise, commanded AFR wouldn't be followed by widebands readings.

And Finally, DB - Thanks a Milion for reviewing my file. It is Your time and effort to do so. I'll have to spend some time now to review it.
My personnal approach is never to copy&paste someone work, I have to understand first, and maybe because I'm a bit slow, it will take some more time.
Again, I preffer to be 1000% sure what I'm doing.

Allow me please now to return to my den, and chew all what I've just read.
I will let You know about my findings.

Thanks again Gentlemen!

it gives you the ability to see whats been done. also don't rely on a stock style controller or many aftermarket controllers. they do not read or calibrate the same most of the time and will cause you major headaches and blow your motor up because of a bad input reading. the AEM controllers are tried and true. Stay away from innovate as they have been over-hyped, if you don't know how to set up your sensed ground on an aftermarket wideband for an analog output and then calibrate the range in vcm scanner the data you think you are getting is almost aways off. its always good to have more than one tool to reference. and the file I sent you is not copy paste it is a reference to what your setup is. fueling i sent will be a tad rich but it needs to be rich until you sort out the knock.

also verify you don't have a broken valve guide. the noise in your knock looks to be what I have seen with an engine with a broken valve guide. ALL MOPAR ENGINES SUFFER FROM STOCK VALVE GUIDE ISSUES. never hurts to check.

also, make fewer changes at a time when tuning verify and repeat. log less parameters at a time and log only what you are focusing on in the tune. that way you get the fastest updated data from given parameters. logging to much hinders the polling rate or latency at which you log data. this in tern will give you bad data. this is especially true for dialing in speed density.

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Originally Posted by DB5249

Also, i see we forgot to mention the issue these engines have with the valve guides breaking off and clattering around on a valve at rpm this will cause knock readings. a mild annoying ticking noise is usually present as well. this is something i have seen commonly and when the broken guide tip finally breaks off the valve say goodbye to a piston and head. i am sending another revised file for you. just try it out and go from there. remember to clear codes after flashing as it will sometimes put trans in 3rd gear limp mode. Cheers

Attachment 127508

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Been a FCA fleet tech for ten years, we see 1 to 3 "broken Valve guides a year.....out of 500-600 car/trucks , I seem to remember "GM and fords, subi, polaris, can am are my specialties" was one of your statements.......

Pabilto , Attached is a copy&paste of my brothers 09 5.7 challenger tune on to your file .....it's not a tune you should try, but a good study of what direction you can go with also note this file is leaner then what you have and we are making north of 550 hp total timing is 24^ ,then backs down to 22^. Car is 4k lbs race weight , runs 11.10s between 119-121 MPH @sea level . stock short block ,Eagle heads , 2.125/1.64 valves , Cam is 225/230 570/600 112 Lsa , Holley snipper intake. we run an old school 727 trans with a 3500 stall.

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Originally Posted by TaylorJ

Been a FCA fleet tech for ten years, we see 1 to 3 "broken Valve guides a year.....out of 500-600 car/trucks , I seem to remember "GM and fords, subi, polaris, can am are my specialties" was one of your statements.......

Pabilto , Attached is a copy&paste of my brothers 09 5.7 challenger tune on to your file .....it's not a tune you should try, but a good study of what direction you can go with also note this file is leaner then what you have and we are making north of 550 hp total timing is 24^ ,then backs down to 22^. Car is 4k lbs race weight , runs 11.10s between 119-121 MPH @sea level . stock short block ,Eagle heads , 2.125/1.64 valves , Cam is 225/230 570/600 112 Lsa , Holley snipper intake. we run an old school 727 trans with a 3500 stall.

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I enjoy the imports and the new sxs are fun to tune. I used to work at dodge that's what got me into the imports when DSM motors were a hot ticket. ended up buying one because I enjoyed them so much, easy to work on, made tons of power with bolt ons and a DIY megasquirt units. even this day I have a 96 dodge stealth twin turbo AWD with a 6g72 putting down 700 with minor upgrades. and my old laser I had before that was putting down 1000hp on a 4g63 with more money in it than sense. Mopar cars have been the easiest-to-tune platform since day one with hp tuners and the integration they have made with software. In Arizona where its hot as hell hemi guides seem to be a weak link and a borescope will tell you quickly. also because people don't install rocker shaft tie bars and rev their hemi motors to the moon. on a head getting hot on a cylinder cooling down too quickly and beating on again. as you said it either happens or it doesn't. but getting bronze guides installed is cheap insurance. i can send you pictures from 2 customers this year that broke valve guides in their hemi. one a 5.7 the other a 6.4. so he might be that 1 this year with guides you would see. JS its so easy to take a peek. might save the guy a few thousand in repair. I wasn't even saying it was or is the problem but its worth a shot is he doesn't see anything else. broken guide makes enough noise at rpm to pull timing and I have log to prove it. rebuilt the heads no more knock reading. but you can usually hear it ticking even at idol.

Attachment 130283

Lads,
One problem found. Unfortunately that hasn't solved the issue.
Thinking of checking the pushrord once again.

However, I'm start to think, that something ain't right with the factory PCM.
Why the hack, the noise aplitude goes up right after 5600RPM?

Leave the fuelling please. It has been checked double times on different widebands, and injectors will be replaced with 100% proved set, just to exclude this potential source.