Stock VVT cam tuning help needed for modified Ly6 (Engine swapped into a Kia Sorento

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Originally Posted by IARLLC

No worries. We were all there....and some of us remember it:) The majority of this will be simple for you in no time. There are still some mysteries for all of us through.

Yes, MAF vs Frequency is your MAF table to correct.

GEN3 still has a normal VE or Volumetric Efficiency table that was a more direct link to transition fueling based on MAP/load and RPM (Speed Density) but GEN4 does not. GEN4 has a variety of VE related tables. It was a mathematical nightmare adjusting it...then came Bluecat's system for integrating VE information....then came VVE. VVE is Virtual Volumetric Efficiency. On the top of your tuning page when you open the tune you have File Edit Compare Flash etc. If you click on Edit, a couple of rows down you will see Virtual Volumetric Efficiency. There are 4 tables within. I do all of the tables the same on GEN4. When you finish changing the table each time and blending/smoothing it out you hit the apply setting button and it applies the virtual table to the actual tables.

It would be nice if I could find some of the user-friendly guides on here to help you get started but I gotta get back to work right now. 5FDP has guided people through this numerous times. GEN3 guides will get you the concepts you need. Some of the GEN4 VE guides you will find were written before VVE existed....just good to know when trying to follow instructions exactly. Will check back in to see how you are doing.

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Thanks again so much for your help and also for your total understanding of my confusion!! It's great to be on a forum with people that are so willing to help!! I have been on so many that have people that leave responses with nothing more then "use the search button!!!"
That being said I did try the search but came up with exactly what you mentioned... Threads that detailed the setup and process on Gen3 and also without the VVE like you mentioned.
I will give this a shot. I am not sure if I can do this with the current log file or if I need to take a new one to do this. I will give it a shot. I will also make a new thread when I get this all figured out so that people can possibly learn from it. Thanks again for your help I wouldn't get this far without you guys!!

Attachment 74022

I am not sure if that worked but it is supposed to by my GEN4 layout.

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Originally Posted by IARLLC

Attachment 74022

I am not sure if that worked but it is supposed to by my GEN4 layout.

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Thank you!! I will give it a look.
Does this table work for all Gen4s regardless of intake system or exhaust system? I imagine those would have an effect on the engines VE correct?

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Originally Posted by IARLLC

Attachment 74022

I am not sure if that worked but it is supposed to by my GEN4 layout.

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This is what I got, I don't think it worked.Attachment 74023

I think that I see how to do it:
Download it
Copy or cut it
Go to Documents - HP Tuner - VCM Scanner and paste it in Layouts
Open VCM Scanner
On the top/left click Layout
On the drop-down click open Layout
Chose GEN4 Layout

Pretty sure that will work.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IARLLC

I think that I see how to do it:
Download it
Copy or cut it
Go to Documents - HP Tuner - VCM Scanner and paste it in Layouts
Open VCM Scanner
On the top/left click Layout
On the drop-down click open Layout
Chose GEN4 Layout

Pretty sure that will work.

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Ok I will give it a try!
Do I put this in all the tables, even the DOD table (even though I don't have DOD)?

It won't hurt.

I was thinking that the Layout file would include everything but now I think that you are going to need to add these channels too. Same process as the Layout file except that channels are right below layout on the scanner page. Attachment 74025

Please let me know if it works right for you. Upper right you should have graphs. 3rd one down should be LTFT + STFT which is my GEN4 chart for VVE. Different Gens have different graph criteria.

You can add channels and change things all you want for different rigs. You will want to add wide-band to this one once you get one.

Thank you so much again. I will give it a shot after I finish my "husbandly chores" haha.
I unfortunately am 37 and am on disability due to a massive cyst inside my spinal cord. So being stuck at home on the couch is how every day goes. I do as much physical labor as my body let's me. That's why it took 2 years almost to do what was actually a relatively easy swap. :banghead:

WOW! That sounds tough man! You are making the most of it though....and that is cool!

So this is what it should look like now?

Attachment 74036

Then do i just run a new log? Should I drive normally through the pedal and RPM and also get on it hard? Or how should i drive for the best log of data?

Oh I think i found the info...

So once i get the data from the table you sent me in the picture I basically follow this procedure.

Method 1 using the LTFT and STFT corrections from the scanner histogram data
After you have logged sufficient data, it is now time to look at what changes you need to make. This will require looking at both the LTFT and STFT data on a cell by cell basis.
The LTFT values are your indicator of how much error is in your Volumetric Efficiency table. If Block Learn is at 0% everything is just right. If your STFT is more than 3 % away from 0 , the LTFT value is still "learning". A motor is considered well tuned to have LTFT values between +- 4%. Not every motor can achieve this though.
There will always be a 2-4% change in learning from day to day. Weather, fuel, and engine dynamics vary quite a bit. It’s the VCM's job to learn these corrections, so don’t spend your time trying to get the LTFT numbers down to 0 and remain there forever. It will never happen.

The VE table corrections can be derived by the following formula:

(+-LTFT%) + (+-STFT%) = Final % Learned

If your LTFT histogram value @1600 RPM, 30 kPa Map is +7 and the associated STFT value is -2 your total % fuel correction is +5. Use about ? the correction (2.5%) on the VE table cell @1600 RPM 30 kPa Map to avoid overshoot.

Repeat this process for any LTFT histogram value that is out of the +- 4% range. After you reflash your VCM with the new VE table, use the VCM Controls function to reset the fuel trims before you start recording new data. This will give you a “clean slate” to work with.

It will take you the better part of an afternoon to log the LTFT, make the corrections to the VE table, then verify the results on the histogram again.

I made the two charts to line up well with their perspective settings...of course MAF for MAF and LTFT + STFT for VVE.

For VVE you will need to turn off your MAF. You don't want to unplug it because the IAT sensor is in it and that will mess with your results. So you go to ENGINE DIAG - AIRFLOW - and set MAF FREQUENCY FAIL HI to 2 (if memory serves...and it sometimes does not) and MAF FREQUENCY FAIL LOW to 1 (I think GEN3 is 1 and 0 while GEN4 is 2 and 1...). Then under ENGINE DIAG - DTC's - you'll want to go down to P0101, P0102, and P0103 and set them to MIL on FIRST error (not second). Some turn off FUEL - Power Enrich for this phase but I would just move your PE Enable MAP setting from 55 kPa up to 85 or 90 so that you will have the extra fuel if you end up needing it during your logging....but you really don't want PE coming in during this phase if you can help it. Now under ENGINE - FUEL - Cutoff,DFCO - DFCO Normal you can set the Enable temp to 493 or set Enable RPM to 8192. Now I save this tune as a VVE tune and keep it separate from the original. You can now download this one to the KIA. It might not run as smoothly now without the MAF. No big deal. This is just a temporary phase. Now I warm it up for more than 10 minutes as valve temperature and maybe even injector temp seem to affect trims on GEN4s below full operating temp. Now you can open the scanner, connect to vehicle and go over to what looks like a power button...under Engine - Fuel you will want to reset fuel trims. Then it is off for a smooth drive. I usually run around in second smoothly accelerating to a little past 4000 RPM then upshift to third and again smoothly pull up to 4000 then upshift to drive and very gradually slow back down sometimes keeping very light throttle pressure so as not to get really messy readings (tough on the brakes, smarter people use filtering to disqualify readings in this phase....maybe I will figure that out some day). After doing this for a while you get a feel for what you need to do to populate as much of the table as possible....and I suggest doing it for quite a while in order to get as accurate readings as possible. You will see how the numbers steady out as you go longer and smoother.

Then it is time to apply the numbers to the VVE table in your VVE tune. Your first run will be off by quite a bit. If the whole thing is off by 20% you can multiply your whole table by 1.2 (or -20% multi by .8) then go for another drive... The real professionals just take their carefully filtered table and multiply special in some way to apply it to the VVE table. I apply pretty much the whole thing one cell at a time blending and smoothing as I go, then blend around the edges, then click CALCULATE COEFFICIENTS, then copy the whole table and go up to the modes and open each of the modes (DODs and Manifold Switch Open) pasting into them and calculating coefficients. Then save it, load it into the KIA and go for another logging. This part is tedious but worth it.

I should mention that without the MAF functioning your trans will shift HARD. This is normal. Not sure how you hooked up those monstrous U-joints to that KIA pumpkin but it might be good to pray for it before shifting:)

Don't worry...the MAF portion is much less tiring.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IARLLC

I made the two charts to line up well with their perspective settings...of course MAF for MAF and LTFT + STFT for VVE.

For VVE you will need to turn off your MAF. You don't want to unplug it because the IAT sensor is in it and that will mess with your results. So you go to ENGINE DIAG - AIRFLOW - and set MAF FREQUENCY FAIL HI to 2 (if memory serves...and it sometimes does not) and MAF FREQUENCY FAIL LOW to 1 (I think GEN3 is 1 and 0 while GEN4 is 2 and 1...). Then under ENGINE DIAG - DTC's - you'll want to go down to P0101, P0102, and P0103 and set them to MIL on FIRST error (not second). Some turn off FUEL - Power Enrich for this phase but I would just move your PE Enable MAP setting from 55 kPa up to 85 or 90 so that you will have the extra fuel if you end up needing it during your logging....but you really don't want PE coming in during this phase if you can help it. Now under ENGINE - FUEL - Cutoff,DFCO - DFCO Normal you can set the Enable temp to 493 or set Enable RPM to 8192. Now I save this tune as a VVE tune and keep it separate from the original. You can now download this one to the KIA. It might not run as smoothly now without the MAF. No big deal. This is just a temporary phase. Now I warm it up for more than 10 minutes as valve temperature and maybe even injector temp seem to affect trims on GEN4s below full operating temp. Now you can open the scanner, connect to vehicle and go over to what looks like a power button...under Engine - Fuel you will want to reset fuel trims. Then it is off for a smooth drive. I usually run around in second smoothly accelerating to a little past 4000 RPM then upshift to third and again smoothly pull up to 4000 then upshift to drive and very gradually slow back down sometimes keeping very light throttle pressure so as not to get really messy readings (tough on the brakes, smarter people use filtering to disqualify readings in this phase....maybe I will figure that out some day). After doing this for a while you get a feel for what you need to do to populate as much of the table as possible....and I suggest doing it for quite a while in order to get as accurate readings as possible. You will see how the numbers steady out as you go longer and smoother.

Then it is time to apply the numbers to the VVE table in your VVE tune. Your first run will be off by quite a bit. If the whole thing is off by 20% you can multiply your whole table by 1.2 (or -20% multi by .8) then go for another drive... The real professionals just take their carefully filtered table and multiply special in some way to apply it to the VVE table. I apply pretty much the whole thing one cell at a time blending and smoothing as I go, then blend around the edges, then click CALCULATE COEFFICIENTS, then copy the whole table and go up to the modes and open each of the modes (DODs and Manifold Switch Open) pasting into them and calculating coefficients. Then save it, load it into the KIA and go for another logging. This part is tedious but worth it.

I should mention that without the MAF functioning your trans will shift HARD. This is normal. Not sure how you hooked up those monstrous U-joints to that KIA pumpkin but it might be good to pray for it before shifting:)

Don't worry...the MAF portion is much less tiring.

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Damn, I didn't know I would have to turn off the MAF. I went out and made a couple logs today but with the MAF still operational. Out of curiosity why is it that you unplug the MAF sensor? Is this because you want it to adjust fuel solely via the MAP sensor? Why is this exactly?
I unfortunately cant lock it in any specific gear yet. The Kia shift pattern only has P-R-N-D then a gate to the right for its OEM tap-shift. I will be implementing this later. I am working on a Can-Bus driven tap shift box to try to avoid the issues i see people having with programming the trans to a Corvette tune (I have the 6L90e)

Just for giggles though here is a picture of the data i picked up on my log run

Attachment 74041

Oh, also.. there is a button in VCM Editor under Virtual VE. Its for camshaft angle. changing it upwards effects the table. Do i have to worry about this? Would i have to set the cam to stay at each angle and do a complete log for every degree?

"Damn, I didn't know I would have to turn off the MAF. I went out and made a couple logs today but with the MAF still operational. Out of curiosity why is it that you unplug the MAF sensor? Is this because you want it to adjust fuel solely via the MAP sensor?"

In short, yes. But remember not to unplug it as you lose IAT which screws up your fueling big time.

"Why is this exactly?"

GM has used MAF and MAP together in various ways for quite a while now unlike the old MAF or SD systems of the past. GEN4 prioritizes the MAF for steady fueling but uses the MAP for advise during transitions (up to about 4000 RPM usually) as the MAP gets instant pressure change during load change compared to the MAF that has to wait for the air to start going faster or slower some distance from the source. Pretty smart if you ask me. As the MAF gets priority when turned on, the results you charted so far are almost entirely MAF. MAF has to be off to get accurate results for tuning the SD/VVE side of things.

Some for various reasons stick with just one or the other but for your set-up I prefer to keep both systems and keep the benefits of both.... once tuned.

"Oh, also.. there is a button in VCM Editor under Virtual VE. Its for camshaft angle. changing it upwards effects the table. Do i have to worry about this? Would i have to set the cam to stay at each angle and do a complete log for every degree?"

Good question! Based on my tests and results I have seen posted I don't believe it is worth it to do it at several positions. When I do it at 0 degrees and apply the results at 0 degrees the results are mathematically applied to the other tables as well. It would of course be possible to log and chart everything at 5 degrees and 10 degrees before and after doing the basic VVE work at 0 just to see how close it brings you. Hmmmmmm!? Maybe I will do that with the 2015 Yukon Denali sitting here if I get a chance:)

Thanks for the info. I totally get the reason for shutting down the MAF now. I guess it should have been more obvious lol since the lag in airflow data behind demand for fuel makes complete sense!
When I upgraded my intake I lost the laminar airflow honeycomb. My "Spectre" intake has the MAF pretty close to the filter and right after a rubber bellows. In sure this is pretty unfriendly on the MAF reading as well. I am using the Ly6 truck sensor. Which looks like a little scoop made from plastic. It's not the card style like the LS car MAF.

Also, I figured I'd ask this because it's relative to my question about doing air tables for each cam degree.
So if I technically just have to do the one basic one (0?) then shouldn't I lock my VVT to 0? for the VE mapping LOG?
My VVT definitely would effect the log I'm sure.

On the MAF...People say not to de-screen them...but a lot of people do it... You will re-calibrate it anyway. We'll see.

"So if I technically just have to do the one basic one (0?) then shouldn't I lock my VVT to 0?"

Great point! I don't remember every seeing that suggested...which does not mean it wasn't though.

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Originally Posted by IARLLC

Great point! I don't remember every seeing that suggested...which does not mean it wasn't though.

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So I should give it a try and lock my VVT at 0?. It honestly makes sense because if I'm putting those table numbers into the 0? on the VVE data then I wouldn't want the VE from mixed cam angles to effect that table. Therefore locking it at 0? ensures I am only getting the engine VE from the cam being at 0? all the time.

Yep! Totally agree! Once you have dialed in VVE/SD to between 0 and -4 you can unlock the cam again and log in SD to see how the VVE automatic math system did guessing the cam advance values. This shall be interesting. The parts for this GEN5 Denali won't come in until tomorrow but I will have to dial it back in once installed....we'll see.

Cool!! This sounds like it will be a good knowledge gathering collaboration for the both of us!! We will be able to see the impact of the cam being locked at 0? on the VE table. I may even do one before locking the cam down just to see how much difference there is in the data.... This would be so much easier if I had a dynometer! LiL