and those are the mods ^^^ there in yer sig???
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and those are the mods ^^^ there in yer sig???
yesQuote:
Originally Posted by LilSick
Anything new on this or am i still dead in the water?
Sucks you're still having issues. Have you considering installing a 1320-spec converter? Just sounds like something is wrong w/ your stock converter. How many miles u have on the tranny?Quote:
Originally Posted by james1595
I thought about it, just converters are so expensive for these cars. $1200 for the convertor, plus a new filter, fluid, and labor. As for miles about 37k . I have not been to the track yet, but I believe i have possibly found a fix. Most people take away torque reduction, ive had to add it, but now i might have to much, and am scaling it down
Any update on a Fix?Quote:
Originally Posted by james1595
My 8HP70 $3,600 trans rebuild was more for longevity with the Raybestos frictions and Raybestos Kolene treated steels and valve body Sonnax Zip Kit (Shift Kit) to handle the additional power now at about 680+ RWHP on pump gas and 13lbs boost. I was told this upgrade should handle up to 900HP. Unfortunately the upgrade does not come with a billet steel E clutch for that price or new solenoids but the solenoids were supposed to be tested.
The Raybestos clutch/friction materials and the valve body Sonnax Zip Kit (Shift Kit) materials are as follows.
https://www.raybestospowertrain.com/...packs/rgpz-018
https://www.raybestospowertrain.com/...packs/stmzf19k
https://www.sonnax.com/parts/4590-zip-kit
https://www.alltranz.co.nz/media/115...structions.pdf
I witnessed the teardown. The clutches were definitely burned. It was scary to see how thin and light the transmission internal and externally splined "aluminum" hubs/shell are. The rebuild seemed to solve my WOT 1-2 shift problem but then the problem came back after a few days and it happened 50% of the time. Lighter throttle may work but that takes me back to the original problem.
With my current power, now when the shift fails at WOT with the 6,700RPM rev limit activating limp mode, the sudden belt torque tension, tensioner limit, and belt stretch expands the belt faster than the tensioner can respond during the sudden acceleration and deceleration. This results in eating my heavy duty Gates HD 6 rib green belts like candy. This also snaps the crappy stock and aftermarket belt tensioners (not designed for supercharger load) :banghead: :-)
I upgraded the tensioner with a $79 Ford Motorcraft BT-92 (7R3Z6B209AA) tensioner with twice the tension, movement, and durability of the stock MOPAR part. It also works on 8 rib systems. It is used on the Ford supercharged Shelby including the 760HP Ford Mustang GT 500 Shelby. You will need an adaptor plate for the Dodge Durango. HHP sells the adaptor plate with the tensioner. This is a cheaper Ford OEM solution to the 9x cost of an ARS tensioner. Now if I go into limp mode it will just snap the belt (unfortunately, confirmed). If the tensioner did fail, replacement is $79, almost cheaper than the belt.
I am still hoping a tune will fix and I do not have to resort to changing my Circle D 2800-3000 stall for the MOPAR OEM performance 1320 with the 2350 stall speed converter. The cam operating range is 2,100-7,100 with a duration of 270. This is ideal for my current 2800-3000 RPM stall converter. The 2350 would not be the best match.
To complicate things, I did notice in my scanner that the valve body solenoid current, on one of the solenoids, when activated during the 1-2 shift, was half the current of the others. A slow or sticky activating solenoid? Maybe this was not detected during the trans build? Still hoping a tune will fix.
Notes on 1-2 Shift and Solenoids:
The 1 >2 shift is a transition that adds "RS2" (Solenoid) engagement to the RS1 already engaged and a single Clutch transition from Clutch "C" to a single Clutch "E". I believe mechanically, the fluid line from the pump is longest for the E clutch, which may make it more troublesome. The valve body shift kit is supposed to help with this shift delay. I did have an alternator failure that caused a voltage surge to 16V and one overheat condition with the previous engine. This condition could possibly contribute to a solenoid coil issue, even though the solenoids are supposed to be very reliable, especially with only 60,000 miles and 3 fluid changes.
Note: All the shifts above Gear #2 have two or more clutches engaged. For example, Gear #6 at 1:1 ratio (dyno testing gear) has the most clutches engaged with three clutches C, D, E.
I have not logged the solinoid activation, but i will now. But as of now no fix. I am still running the factory 5.7 convertor thoughQuote:
Originally Posted by Enthusiastic
the only way to tune this area (1-2 shift) is by referring to logs (good logs) (as in required pid's and not created on a laggy lap top) while slicked down at a track that hooksQuote:
Originally Posted by james1595
So sorry it did not work. You get an E for effort or E for E clutch, the one that engages for the first time in 2nd gear :rolleyes:. Sorry bad joke. Laughing is better than crying.Quote:
Originally Posted by james1595
My supercharged 5.7 setup with the stock 5.7 torque converter and stock 8HP70 worked fine with 560WHP before the engine failed. The issue started with the new forged 6.4 setup with the same supercharger, surprisingly the same horsepower, and with the same stock 8HP70. I later lowered the trans fluid operating temp to 130 degrees but the problem still existed.
When the trans was rebuilt, it only temporarily fixed the problem so something is marginal. It would be much easier if there was a complete failure.
Again the common change is still the Circle D 3000 stall converter and tune. I was told to change the converter to a higher stall for the cam and higher horsepower. On the chance there is a solenoid issue, I will go back and try to find my old log of the solenoid that was half the current on the scanner tool.
In addition, I recently added another 120+ horsepower for the other 6 gears :crazy:That probably does not help any for the 1-2. It is crazy how track cars can put down over 1,200 HP to those sticky tracks with the right tires. They probably don't even need 1st gear and just skip that one.
I can definitely see how a sticky track changes everything regarding the tune and much easier to break stuff. However, if you smoke the tires on a safe street, can you get a successful 1>2 shift? Mine only needs to be tuned for a successful street shift as a first step. I am not ready for the track.Quote:
Originally Posted by james1595
I could not find my log, data, or playback showing commanded gear #2. I only had one in park as illustrated. Same with the shift solenoid valves, the commanded gear is not showing. I will need to relog those to confirm. However, as you can see below Shift Solenoid B Current does not seem correct at 360.8 mA.Quote:
Originally Posted by james1595
You would think a solenoid is either full on or off. Assuming that the solenoid voltages are all the same, and the amount of force necessary to activate them are all the same, then you would think that all of the coil resistance and induced current would be the same. If true, then a drastically different reading may indicate a bad solenoid coil or a bad supply or ground current resister, if they are used. I do not have a schematic. The voltage supply of the solenoid valve is stable at 13.24V for a 24 second sample. If the solenoid sensed current path should be 850mA, then the resister (if used) and coil total path resistance should be about 15.5 OHMS.
Solenoid B Current at 360 mA would indicate that the current path resistance is much higher at 40 OHMS, implying bad resistor, solenoid, loose or badly crimped wire connector, oxidized or loose solenoid terminal, pinched or damaged wire. At almost 1/3 the current, this may indicate that the force used to activate the solenoid valve may be 1/3 of the other solenoid valves which could barely be enough for it to activate at certain pressures and maybe very slow or not completely activating or closing with higher pressure or mechanical resistance. At least that is my theory. Based upon this, I would say that in this case it may have been wise to request changing all of the solenoids when rebuilding a transmission. I will need to talk to a transmission expert to verify if this makes any sense. Finding one in my area is challenging. :doh:
Attachment 141963Attachment 141964
Spinning on the street all sorts of things can happen. Combine how low the low gear reduction is with a street tire and a dirty street - the trans can run itself overQuote:
Originally Posted by Enthusiastic
Or it can complete the 1-2 shift and then nick the rev limiter anyways from spin
https://youtube.com/shorts/SqAvZnYo5...3O8AVYbQtNn8vK
The trans can run over itself. ROTFLOL :burnout: :drivin::burnout:Quote:
Originally Posted by LilSick
Your ride sounds awesome, no nappy time for the kids.
Mine sounds like a sewing machine compared to yours:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiHT...GApFE8&index=1
I have many times. Im now going to be logging almost every trans perameter i can log. But when you look at the logs, it sumply just didnt try to shift. However, ive messed with the torque managment and think i found what was needed. Hopefully anywayQuote:
Originally Posted by LilSick
thanks!Quote:
Originally Posted by Enthusiastic
for the trans to shift from low to 2nd valve for E needs to be open and valve for C needs to be closed
both those are normally open valves
Found this a while back. Can't find the sourceQuote:
Originally Posted by LilSick
[UPDATE 1/20/2024] - Apparently these are the clutch diagrams and not solenoid. I think captured from a video.
Attachment 141992
Attachment 141994
valves
Thanks!Quote:
Originally Posted by LilSick
Apparently, the solenoids are actually more complicated than I thought. They are not just on/off fluid switches. They are normally open or normally closed variable force PWM solenoids (pulse-width-modulated) that control the fluid pressure for each hydraulic circuit. Cool!
This probably provides an incredible amount of control when it works right. I believe the TCM pulses the 13V solenoids, sync to ground (in TCM/PCM), so the current will be variable based upon duty cycle.
It is better to state the solenoid is energized (on) or not (de-energized, off) as their is a mix of normally open or closed. Also keep in mind that when energized, it is variable how much because of PWM.
Not sure if 1>2 shift is a 1st flare or delayed 2nd causing engine max rev limp. Hard to tell by feel or sound as the attempted shift cycle is so fast from first gear. Hopefully the log captured this. If the issue is not the tune and is mechanical, I would not suspect the fluid, fluid paths, or clutches recently upgraded. Also, the valve body zip kit (shift kit) mods are supposed to help reduce the normal "E" clutch delays if installed properly. The normal "E" clutch delay is because the fluid run distance is longest from the fluid pump for the "E" clutch.
Regarding fluids - I tried the branded Chrysler genuine MOPAR OEM ZF 68157995AA (ZF Lifeguard 8), Amsoil ZF compatible version - OE Fuel-Efficient Synthetic (OTLTP-EA/2.5-Gal.), Valvoline MaxLife full synthetic fluid, and currently I am using "Liqui Moly Top Tec ATF 1800 synthetic fluid" installed by the trans builder.
It is clear depending on usage, your fluid should be changed before 50k miles per ZF. Vehicle OEM "Lifetime fluid" is not correct when ZF (the trans manufacturer) recommends fluid changes every 50K miles or less in heavy-duty use. However, after the OEM vehicle warranty, usually 50K miles (coincidence maybe?), all of the compliant “multipurpose” full synthetic fluids should be ok as long as they support the replacement of ZF branded Lifeguardfluid 6, Lifeguardfluid 8, Lifeguardfluid 9, and meet the TE-ML11A, 11B, 14 specs. I have tons of information on this but it really boils down to the specification requirements and the highly profitable branded reseller agreements enforced by the vehicle OEM warranty requirements.
I am running cooler than normal operating temp which could affect viscosity and may slightly affect fluid velocity and pressure but the issue existed before the lower temps. Fluid brand and viscosity probably would have more impact than the cooler temp. I think there may be some tune temperature settings that may limit torque but this could be offset it necessary.
Solenoids Energized (Excluding Park):
1st = A, B, D, E
2nd = A, B, C, D
1-2 Shift Change = C (on), E (off); solenoid picture layout illustration below (Figure 51), White Color Solenoids C = #4, E = #5
Note: "Clutches Applied" Chart for 1-2 Shift is opposite, C (off), E (on, applied)
Clutch Application:
1st = ABC
2nd = ABE
1-2 Shift Change = C (off), E (on)
I wonder how the important "E" clutch pressure for second gear is modulated when the fluid flow is already highest on the normally open circuit with the solenoid "off". As long as the E solenoid is off and ABCD are energized when second gear is commanded, the ABE clutches should be engaged. I assume the transition is probably very important from clutches ABC to ABE on how the pressures are modulated for the on/off transition and clutch engagement. The AB braking clutches stay engaged during the transition but the rotating C clutch transitions to rotating E. Then it would seem that the Line Pressure Solenoid (LPS) and Torque Converter Clutch solenoid (TCC) needs to be very fast in modulating the pressure and clutch friction for the WOT torque. Maybe the timing of releasing/reducing pressure C while engaging/increasing E then balancing the line pressure without burning up everything or decreasing durability. So goes my current hypothesis :-)
Here is some great info:
Attachment 142016
Attachment 142017
Attachment 142018
Attachment 142019
Yes, correct for flow.Quote:
Originally Posted by LilSick
That means 2nd gear for "energized" solenoids:
E = off, open (to engage E clutch); low or no current
C = on, closed (to disengage C clutch); higher current depending on PWM duty cycle
Note: Solenoids ABD will still be on (energized) so ABCD should all be reading some energized current for 2nd gear and the TCC and LPS may have some current depending on PWM at idle.
Not sure what the PWM duty cycle would be fully transitioned to 2nd gear and what that current would be. Scanner tool may tell me this at least at idle with the brake on. The paddle shifter will allow 2nd gear at idle to test. It is possible the lower current solenoid I saw, was the LPS or TCC current at low idle torque with different PWM, which would make sense. I need to check it again.
The automatic trans calibration procedure has to be done whenever there are changes like a rebuild including replacement of the clutches, valve body, or other modifications. Normally the trans builder/installer will perform this but it was not done successfully in my case. It shifted very badly. I ran the calibration and that totally resolved the issue. The trans temp needs to be at least 130 degrees for the calibration to perform. I did not do a recalibration after the latest engine tune that added another 120+ HP with the smaller Whipple pulley.
You bring up an interesting point on the calibration procedure. When I was having my 1>2 shift issues I performed the Adaptive Reset (via HPtuners) but don't recall using AlfaOBD to perform the Quick Learn as explained in this vid,Quote:
Originally Posted by Enthusiastic
https://youtu.be/wDmrLD3ph0s?si=zJTl1SpqmQvxQT16
I'll keep this procedure in mind as I've shipped my tranny off for a rebuild, which will include a custom-spec converter.
Ive done the trans adaptive reset, and although ahifts feel firmer, it never fixed the problem. As of now, i have all my shifts above 5k rpm shift as though i had my car in sport mode, with factory sport mode pressures and everything, and also have a butt load of torque managment pulling power, but even with all of this, shifts still seem to nick the limiter, even though its pulling timing, and closeing the throttlebody
post a log of it doing that slicked down on a drag strip
not at the drag strip, couldnt start in 2nd if i wanted, let alone 1st, but was doing some data logging to see what the trans was doing, and also some fuel and spark adjustments, but should be enough info.
Attachment 142087
enough info to do what?Quote:
Originally Posted by james1595
To see why its not shifting properly. I know it wasnt first, but should give an insight to what its doing
if its running into the rev limiter at the top of low gear (instead of shifting into 2nd) the car needs to be on slicks and on a prepped track and at a dead stop in low gear when ya leave and collect data
there is no way around it
Awesome. Good luck on your rebuild and torque converter. I assume they chose the spec converter for your horsepower and the stall best matched to your cam operating range, duration, and driving application. For consistency and compatibility with whatever fluid they use, you may want to ask them which fluid they will be using or recommend for the build to avoid possible issues. Also, find out if they upgrade the frictions/steels, and if they modify the valve body with a zip kit for improvement in E clutch operation. Some will even upgrade the E clutch to billet steel at a higher price if you have higher horsepower plans.Quote:
Originally Posted by shak3r
Yes, I used HPTuners for the relearn using VCM scanner, Controls & Special functions, Trans Fast Relearn:
https://www.hptuners.com/help/vcm-sc...fast_learn.htm
I do not have the $50 windows or android based AlfaODB scanner application but it may be interesting to check out. I do have XTool D8BT, a dedicated Android based scanner. I did not notice a trans relearn feature under special functions.
Sorry to hear that.Quote:
Originally Posted by james1595
I went the tune route at first, with many attempts and no success. Then I did the hardware route with the rebuild and limited success. Further tune attempts to tweak the tune with the new hardware, and still no success.
I know that wheel spin is not helping me and sometimes disabling traction control helps. Traction control, aka "computer controlled wheel braking of the lost traction wheel" at straight-line WOT just seems wrong. The science evades me how that is good for your clutches and helping with the next shift. A second opinion on the tune can't hurt so I am still being optimistic and this forum is great.
I can see it now, a brake pedal for each rear wheel, managed by a human traction control engineer, who is also the co-pilot on the passenger side. At WOT, the pilot yells out, quick, hit the left rear brake, its starting to spin, no . . now quick hit the right brake, no . . . your too slow and not listening, hit both brakes and I will turn on the nitrous :doh:. BOOM. Let's blame it on . . . we don't have traction and need 315s.
:burnout::drivin::drivin::burnout:
What would slicks do any different than a street tire if it doesnt spin? Ive been to the track and it didnt matter if i spun or not, still didnt shift until ibhit the limiter
Yes. We both agree. Like you, in anticipation of someone telling us your problem is (the commonly used statement), "you don't have 315s and your not running on a sticky track". That's why I added it to the joke :)Quote:
Originally Posted by james1595
[EDIT - COMMENT UPDATE CLARIFICATION] - the reason I said that spinning does not help was that a spinning first gear change is so fast that it would not help, especially if the tune was on the edge of marginal. It does not mean it is necessarily the cause of the issue, especially if you have the computer hitting the brakes with traction control on. I was only marginally successful by turning it off. However, I just don't like what happens when it is on. My brain says if you spin the tires, traction control or not, it should not trigger limp mode on any car and means something is not right. traction control is great for normal driving around corners, weather and braking.
coolQuote:
Originally Posted by Enthusiastic
cant wait to see what the two of you come up with
my slicks have different rollout than my street tires do
that means rate of acceleration will be different IF it was hooked dead up on one, vs hooked dead up on the other
yes, spinning shortens the amount of time available to complete the shift too
if ya cannot understand that... well, i just do not know how to say it any clearer
LilSick - Lucid, clear, crystal and transparent. Totally makes sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by LilSick
Traction, friction, load, acceleration and a lot of tune tables that involve engine RPMs, torque, gear ratios, axle ratio, tire size, speed, acceleration and offsets loaded into the HPTuners interface and compiler to load binary data into the proper memory registers into the PCM/TCM controllers. Sounds like a great spreadsheet project to help with loading the data into HPTuners.
I love building spreadsheets and can reverse engineer the tables into Excel but I still need to learn the basics how HPTuners works and how all the tables interact. Then I can do the intermediate calculations and build my own tool. I have not even setup step one, a custom VCM scanner PID channel layout more specific to monitor/log all the important trans parameters yet. Looking for some good training links or videos.
To be more clear, I think a better example of the discussion is:
Let's say your RWD hardware and tune were theoretically perfect enough to hookup almost all of your 800hp without slip, flare, or wheel spin (traction loss) on 93 octane pump gas. It is hard to believe you would trigger limp mode under the same conditions, except the only change was reduced traction and crazy wheel spin by using rear wheel skinnies. I can see going the other way being an issue where your higher load fatties and stickies condition is never realized during tuning and you find out your marginal tune with skinnies does not work when you move to a higher HP and/or load condition (better traction).
Not to sound rude, but ive been dealing with this for a long time, and have had many people look into it and no one can seem to fix it. I cant just go to drag strip and get multiple passes. Its usually 1 and done. So hoping i dont spin isnt really good enough. But like ive said, it doesnt matter if i spun or not, it still wouldnt shift. It didnt pull any timing, fuel, or close the throttlebody. It did nothing. Now it is doing all that, but not shifting quite right and was hoping with the data log i posted could give insight into why, and maybe why 1st gear doesnt shift either
could be a leak between the valve body and the case
being that there are no pressure sensors in these things kinda hard to know how bad its leaking
(from what i understand they all leak to some extent)
my car shifts great hooked dead up
hook yer puter up to a good speaker and listen to this 1-2 while spinning:
https://youtube.com/shorts/SqAvZnYo5sg
here it glitch out a lil??? (cuz it was spinning)
that was not in D tho... i shifted it manually there
at the track its always in D
on the street, just driving around, i usually shift it myself
*what you can not see in that video is that there was a truck in the #1 lane and a vette in the #2 lane that i pulled up on the right side of : )
It says the video is private. So if it is bad, im assuming no tune will fix it. And it will only get worse. So i should look into getting a replacement trans
no bro
the way to determine that ^^^ is by logging at the track
dont just throw parts at it
*the video is public now
Mine shifts like that on the road when i spin, kinda like a hiccup, but thats because i dont stay floored to the floor. But do you know what i should be looking for in the log? How to tell if something is wrong or right?
pedaling the thing makes the log as worthless as one made while spinning on the street
#never lift : )
"do you know what i should be looking for in the log?" - Yes. This is how a tuner tunes. With a good log. Knowing what to look at, and why they are looking at it. Making changes to the tune and logging again. Rinse and repeat. Want to learn how to log? 20/hr. Lunch money. Learn how to log you will be able to tune. Don't and you wont. It's that simple
Don Tanklage
here is my latest log and tune. i was not at the drag strip, so i left about 500ft of rubber behind, but i did not lift(the 2nd time). 1st was supposed to shift at 6k, but didnt. 2nd is 6600 rpm, but im pretty sure they both just hit the rev limiter. you can see it doesnt try to shift till much later in first, so im not sure why. is it just too quick for the tcm?
Attachment 142468Attachment 142469