Do you have max character set to 2?
Attachment 115260
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Do you have max character set to 2?
Attachment 115260
Yes. Yesterday I ran the car again with the Dyno plug connected and car used alt 2 like it should've. Hopefully going to the track this weekend and will update then and probably have more questions. Thanks for all the help guys.Quote:
Originally Posted by veeefour
Ok guys, took the car to the track last night and have new questions lol. The first thing is why does the timing seem to hit a limiter while stalling the car on the torque converter and shortly after the car goes WOT? Is it something to do with the "launch" logic, is it just borderline timing tables? Secondly, the car isn't pulling a lot of timing for shift torque but every once in a while and for a very short time (typically, in one log it's very noticeable) I get timing pulled while spark source is still borderline but torque source says "Tq+ from trans" and Desired Airmass Arbitration Source is set to Disabled/FMEM is the log. What is this and how can I fix it. The car ran the fastest it ever has at a 7.52 on 93 and was pretty consistent throughout the night but the 1.85 60' is killing me.
Tune attached is the last tune flashed to the car and correlates to Pass 4 log. I can attach the other tunes if y'all would like. Attaching all logged passes.
Attachment 115286 Attachment 115288 Attachment 115287 Attachment 115289 Attachment 115290
In addition to this, why do I have Spark source: Torque control until almost 5 mph on launch? I think that may be affecting the 60' as well. If this is getting to far away for the original title I can make a new post under a new title if needed.Quote:
Originally Posted by zkonmando
The low speed stuff could be anti-jerk.
As for the torque+, I’ve seen that on mine as well. It seems to use one or the other or both on wot upshifts. It’s definitely a different source from shift modulation. It sounds like it’s one of the rare cases where torque management can add torque. Intuitively it sounds like when it’s rev-matching for downshifts, but that doesn’t make sense on upshifts. I’ve seen little to no discussion on that in the forum here.
Antijerk stuff is off in Engine, torque management tab. If the trans is adding torque why would it be subtracting timing? Look at the 1-2 shift on Pass 1. Its odd man. These cars are very complex.
I tried to remove tq+ from trans but it seems there's still something missing we are not aware of.
You can flip the switch but this seems to have no effect:
Attachment 115295
You car try to alter tq arbitration tables but tq+ from trans will still be there:
Attachment 115296
Setting this to off in spark table wont switch it off either:
Attachment 115297
One thing I was able to determine is when you set it to use ETC or cut fuel on shifts, instead of having SPARK to do the job, it will very rarely use tq+ from trans.
I would really like to know what tq+ from trans does and how we can really disable this logic - this is definitely not helping on boosted applications.
I wonder if torque+ is the rev-match logic (I call it rev match but I’m talking about the auto trans downshift throttle blips) and vcm jas the torque source in error. Maybe the code is mixed up with torque-. It wouldn’t be the first time they mixed up source codes. Mine sometimes switches to “traction control” at the oddest time with perfect traction and tc/at off.
All this stuff is very weird, sadly I won't be able to run the car on the track this next week as they are closed for Thanksgiving. Hopefully, the week after I can get back out and test some stuff and I will update here again. If there's anything else you guys suggest trying I am all for trying it. Crazy that these have been around for a few years now and there is still a lot of unknowns when it comes to getting them working well. Even with the car still having a mind of its own on some things I am still counting this as a win compared to the last time I took it to the track where I had huge timing dips everywhere from torque control. I finally feel as if I am making headway. Thanks for the help this far on the trans side and hopefully we can eventually figure out the Tq+ logic.
Don't think so, it looks like a second shift modulation, it slows down the entire up-shift. Rev match is only for down shift.Quote:
Originally Posted by engineermike
If you torque source shows TC your trans is slipping.
I don’t think you understood my post.Quote:
Originally Posted by veeefour
What torque source does it show for rev matching/rpm increase during transmission downshifting?
I follow perfectly...you tune MT very differently has nothing in common.
But to answer your question: mostly Tq base deccel and target N
No, that’s not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about momentary throttle blips when the 10r80 downshifts to reduce inertial effects of the engine when the lower gear engages. That’s not target-n or torque based decel. Never mind I’ll log it myself.
ok, you mean rev matching auto trans on down shift...it's 100% shift modulation. Tq+ comes only on up-shift.
It crossed my mind that Hptuners might have the torque source definitions mixed up between the two in vcmscanner. It wouldn’t be the first time.
Tq+ from trans, comes on decel as well. Engine braking. It's torque the computer can't control directly. TCC, gear changes, or going into neutral. It's torque on the engine from the trans.
You might be right but never seen it directly on down-shifts.Quote:
Originally Posted by murfie
Any idea how to not have tq+ on upshifts?
I think you figured that out already, give it as much authority over engine torque as you can with out it causing issues. Drag mode does the opposite, so it goes to tq+ from trans easier.Quote:
Originally Posted by veeefour
The problem is tq+ is still there...but it's there only once in a while...which is not making any sense or rhyme.
This is more complex than it looks - definitely some more options for hpt engineering to discover.
Let me offer an alternate explanation: "Torque+ from trans" is engine torque increase commanded by transmission logic.
I've seen it on all of my higher rpm downshifts, where the throttle is blipped open to match the revs for the next lower gear. See attached screenshot, where pedal position was zero. All of my downshifts show the same.
Attachment 115357
On upshifts, this would happen when the torque modulation value is higher than the turbine torque, such as the case in drag mode when the modulation value is 738 ftlb and the turbine torque is under 500. Nothing happens as a result of this torque source, because it's already making maximum torque. This could be addressed by copying the row axis values into the rest of the table the same, but I really don't think it would change anything.
Oh I did that and tq+ was still there...Quote:
Originally Posted by engineermike
I don't think it's a command for more torque from the engine.
It's an indication there's positive torque coming from the trans that no engine control is going to reduce. When it is determined to be the dominant control of engine speed, it shows as the source.
In hybrid vehicles this positive torque could be coming from the electric motor. In non hybrid vehicles it's coming from the vehicles speed/ transmission speed not matching the engines. A rev match down shift is requesting more torque from the engine, with out that, Tq + from the trans would force the engines speed to match the transmissions. It wouldn't be as smooth because of the differences in torques.
That all makes sense, but if that’s the case it doesn’t explain why the throttle opens with a torque source of “TQ+ from trans” on little/no pedal downshifts.
On all ZF8 vehicles that I worked on - yes 10r80 is a copy of zf8 - thers is no such a thing, shifts are crisp with just one modulation even with Dodge Demon.Quote:
Originally Posted by murfie
More to say Dodge and others can make this trans shift good and even cut the fuel for few ms to have crisp shift with a beautiful "burp" sound....but ford, hey ho lets make this impossible to tune and super complicated for tuners...
Ford should hire Audi engineers to tune this trans...there is absolutely ANOTHER level how those trans work in Audi cars...
I wouldn't say its a copy of the ZF, but actually they are controlled very similar. I would go as far to say exactly the same. Synchronous shifts are synchronous shifts. 6R80 included.Quote:
Originally Posted by veeefour
They have a lot more going on with determining shift scheduling, which arguably makes tuning them harder vs just our 3 characteristics and 15 or so maps of different modes. A problem caused by so many manufactures using the same transmission.
Ford breaks shifts down into just 3 phases vs ZF does 4 if you actually count the maintenance phase. The 3rd post of the sticky for "getting to know the ZF" in the dodge transmission section is a very good explanation and a lot applies to Ford as well.
A lot of it is just stuffed under shift properties tab. The units of torque or torque/time don't really fit shift pressure or shift timing so HPT had to make the shift properties tab to put it all under.
This applied with 6r80 and still applies for 10r80.
Attachment 115374
T eng- torque of engine
T ogc - torque of off going clutch
T occ - torque of oncoming clutch
The Ford calibration follows these straight lines to easier describe the curvy lines that pressures actually are.
P ogc - pressure of off going clutch
P occ- pressure of oncoming clutch
Its really important to know the phases of a shift for transmission tuning. Its also usually why I refrain from discussing transmission tuning with others, its all inertia phase and nothing else with most people.
If you look inside ZF8 and 10r you will see they are almost identical - of course not 1:1 but just like 6r was to ZF6.
Even gear ratios are identical up to 8th gear, trust me on this one...ford just squeezed 2 more gears out of planetary combinations.
Will read trough the rest later, have 3 cars to tune and everything you post requires 100% concentration;)
Take a look at audi tunes for zf8 - the way trans work in rs6 for example is on another level, like different galaxy...its
the same trans, well almost the same not sure why some manufactures do that in a such complicated way...this is beyond
my comprehension...
The 10r80 can also cut fuel on upshifts and make the sound. Not as good sounding as audi or mercedes or even dodge but better than nothing. Also makes the shifts feel very smooth and very fast.
6r80 can do that too - its just not working well with ford "logic".
I also got the shift fuel cut working on upshifts but there’s an unfortunate side effect. It sends a burst of air down the exhaust that registers a lean signal from the o2 sensors, which results in an unintended increase in spark timing due to the lambda borderline correction.
It can also cause the lean knock.
Very easy to do just command less spark cut with ratio tables like 0.5, it will fill up the hole with injector cut.
I don't seem to have that issue. Im not boosted yet though and I have a F-150. Most of the time it only ends up cutting a few cylinders. It seems to learn how long it needs to do it to make the shift. I also let it pull timing still too.Quote:
Originally Posted by engineermike
oh no n/a vs boosted is completely different story...you can't even imagine trust me.Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverFrostLSC
I could really go for that discussion. Imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by murfie
I as well. The info available on that subject is half baked at best.Quote:
Originally Posted by CoreyMS
Im here as well but i shared probably everything i know...
I posted this information long before I owned a 10R80. No one discussed it or even seemed to use it.
Ford added two speed sensors to the 10R80, ISSA and ISSB. HPT allows you to log these as "input shaft RPM" and "input shaft RPM B". Not really what they are (intermediate speed sensors), but still allowing me to calculate every part in the transmission speeds. Using relative speeds you can see the slip in each clutch. Something you can only really guess at with the 6R80, as you know the two clutchs off and on, but only have the gear ratio, TSS, and OSS to go off of.
Attachment 115483
Clutch A and B when applied should be 0. They are brake clutches. That's easy.
E is my favorite. Its the on coming clutch in the gears going to 3rd or 5th. To see its slip, when applied you just compare it to the input speed TSS.
In this snip, one might think something in the transmission was slipping in 4th from the RPM. People make comments about stock power levels 10R's slipping. Nothing in the transmission was, it is the stock converter locking up, and certainly feels off or there's room to improve the feeling of it, and well the sound the car makes going through that gear(4th/5th) at part throttle.
Attachment 115484
C, D, and F when applied can be a little tricky.
They are all attached to a node, and they need to be compared based on the power flow through the node and around it.
1st Power is flowing around the node, so slip in those clutches doesn't matter. its speed should be the same as planet 3 carriers with just clutch D applied.
2nd/3rd, power is flowing through C, the node, and D. Clutch C is oncoming into 2nd, then match clutch D through 2nd and 3rd. This is essentially two clutches used to keep planet 3 sun and carrier gears speed matched. Not much chance of slip doing that.
4th gear and higher the node's speed should be equal to ISSB, as long as F isn't slipping.
You can then use that to determine slip when needed for C and D in 5th and 6th.
7th and higher clutch A goes off and F becomes a direct power flow route as planet 1 is allowed to free spin. C,D,E transfer power to the sun gear of planet 4, and F alone transfers power to the ring gear of planet 4. Giving you a 1:1ratio, but unbalanced power flow through the clutches.
I don't think anyone cares about above that.
The ECU is calculating the slip of each clutch all the time. We should be able to log all of them not just A and B. It would be easier than setting up user maths.
The D clutch connecting planetary 3 carrier to the node, is what "copies" and turns the ZF8 into a 10 speed. It adds a 5th and 9th gear. This could be a very big upgrade to a weak point in 7th gear, making the node permanently connected to the carrier of planetary 3. eliminate 5th and 9th, gain strength in 7th the 1:1.Very similar to what a 4R200 hub does by eliminating the 1:1.52 front planetary.
People would probably complain you are turning it into a ZF8. GM didn't put the 10 speed into the corvette due to size, so I say if you eliminated clutch D, you would end up with a transmission bigger in size and much stronger than a ZF8.
Find a way to permanently connect both C and D to the node, and have a 5 speed transmission. Some steel bands in the shape of clutches, but with meshing teeth instead of frictions.
2.98
2.14
1.76
1
.63
6-7 shift in 10r is weird to say the least. Lot of intermittent false knock, and noticeably feels weaker going into 7th.
ZF8 HP900 is a far more stronger trans, can hold 1200Nm with a proper tuning. 10r clutches says bye at 900Nm, E clutch being the weak link.
F is the weak clutch.
C in the ZF does the same thing as E in the 10R.
D was connected into a nod and additional clutch to send power to the 4th ring from two other parts instead of just one direct to the output. This added the weak point of the F clutch.
ZFs E clutch doesn't exist in the 10R, unless you say it's the C clutch connected to the nod, but the moving parts connected would not be the same.
They are similar, but very much different. Operation, control, and, shift speed tuning, will be similar.
Unless removing C or D clutch allows you to beef up F significantly, probably not worth what I was pondering earlier.
Attachment 115505
Attachment 115506
E is a weak clutch that I see ALWAYS burnt badly:
Attachment 115517
You can modify this drum to accept more plates.
Good Info