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For what it's worth, the settings in one of my *purchased* tunes has the max angle at 285 deg, and max duty cycle at 1.1, with airflow limit timer maxed out. I have been running this tune for about 6 months, with several sub 13 second track passes in my '15 full size crew 3.5L Eco.
What WOT lambda are you running?
I thought DI boosted engines liked running leaner unlike the PI ones. Like 11.5 to 11.7 on e10. Possibly leaner of the intake temps were not getting to high. Am I mistaken?
They do, but I think a lot of people just keep tuning them like they are MPFI engines. I didn't notice any extra margin for knock resistance running my GTDI engines richer (0.77 to 0.80) versus leaner (0.85 to 0.87). Heck, my GM LNF engine's Power Enrichment table shows lambda starting at 0.95 in the 100% throttle column (at low RPM) going as rich as 0.87 at 6500 RPM.
I agree. On my experience with the Cobalt SS/TC car's, you can indeed get away with a very lean AFR on a TC/DI motor vs. MPFI tuning. It seems to me as if most still tune like MPFI on the WOT Lambda for some reason, maybe someone can offer an explaination for that. Aside from catalyst cooling, I really don't see why?Quote:
Originally Posted by murfie
I logged my truck with the OEM tune, and they run them REALLY fat past 4k or so, like 10.8:1 or greater at times.
The OEM EcoBoost tune does run it very rich at WOT. My Cobalt SS/TC's stock PE table ran it lean, as rich as 0.87 at WOT.
I think most run it richer to get some knock retard margin, but again from what I have seen with the SHO, running it as rich as 0.77 to 0.82 didn't yield me any extra knock resistance compared to running it at 0.85 or leaner.
DI does have a cooling benefit directly to the piston that does help a little bit, but that isn't a free pass to run lean. I feel like some people confuse the ability to run stratified charges and thus very lean overall on some designs with the ability to run much leaner.
As well, it's dangerous to compare one engine to another. Just because an LNF can run nice and lean doesn't mean an Ecoboost or a VAG GTDI or some other engine can. They have different designs and are different motors.
Your best resource for an idea of AFRs you can run is available in the stock tune. Those numbers typically aren't just pulled out of nowhere, and have reasons behind them. There's a reason there's overtemp responses and why it gets richer with higher ECT on the newer cals, etc. As well, I again point to the torque ratio for a given lambda. If you're not losing much power, but you're gaining cooling and longevity there might be a benefit there.
As well, keep in mind the "duty cycle" of the motor. Having a real lean map might work great on the strip because you're at full load for <20seconds. The same map on a road course might end very badly for you as you're at higher loads for longer, and heat builds up.
Yes, a well implemented DI will be able to run "leaner" and more efficient than the exact same motor with PI, but its not a free card to assume you can suddenly run long stretches of time being .1 lambda leaner than a PI vehicle. I'm a member of a few tuning groups on Facebook and you regularly see people ask why a given DI piston failed, and the answer is pretty much always heat related, and people always argue "oh you're too rich, you're too lean" and then you see people with OEM calibration experience come in and answer "too lean" even though its DI.
You've gotta be careful here in my opinion. I've tuned a ton of the 4-cyl Ecoboost and as a rule of thumb I don't ever run leaner than the stock calibration was in PE, and I typically bring PE in sooner (because I'm bringing more torque in so I have to move it down). I've seen far too many tunes allow insane loads nearly twice what OEM would do outside of PE (Stoich!) or run far too lean, and I've seen entire communities feel like their engine is weak due to what in my opinion is poor tuning backed by ideas like "DI can run so much leaner!".
The OEM invests a lot of money into their calibrations, and they make conscious decisions on what they run. They also have far more things under sensor than an equivalent production engine and thus collect data you just don't see in the aftermarket really. For example, the reason for the pig rich on a stock tune up top is typically Exhaust Component Protection, primarily the catalyst, to help protect the washcoat and keep the catalyst functional. So that could be said to be emissions related, but at the same time, a three way catalyst needs to be close to stoich to function at maximum efficiency, so if emissions was the sole reason for things, you'd think they'd just run stoich full time until overtemp happens (this is actually in use by some OEMs like Mercedes, but I haven't seen any Ford calibration do so), but there are other factors that determine PE enrichment, of which I'm pretty sure the primary is cooling and thus longevity.
But its tough to say. I haven't worked as an OEM calibrator for Ford and I don't know what drives their decisions, but you can bet they made conscious ones when they did development of the calibrations. That's why I never run leaner than they have in a factory calibration, and it's also why I don't disable the overtemps (except catalyst if the vehicle is indeed cat-less). There's a reason for it, and its typically longevity, which I'm not willing to sacrifice for 3% more torque.
Looking at my stock SHO tune, the factory runs a very lean lambda up until 4k-5k RPM, and then it starts to enrichen down to 0.77 or so. But for the bulk of the powerband at WOT, the lambda is around 0.82-0.86 - this is the factory setup.
Version 1.4 is posted - mainly some changes to spark and turbocharger torque management. I'm still in the process of testing/datalogging the ECT/CHT with the Reische 4D 170F thermostat. Once I find some fan settings I like, I'll post them up.
It's been awhile and I haven't posted many updates, but my SHO was able to run 12.4 @ 110.9 mph at a DA of 1900+ (900' ASL, 70F ambient, headwind, poorly prepped track) with the stock exhaust, stock intake, stock filter, and the factory original worn out Goodyear RS-A (not RS-A2) tires with about 5/32" tread remaining and a slow leak on the right rear (loss of 5 psi every month).
I figure with proper tires, lower altitude, and cooler dry air conditions, the car could run about 12.1-12.2 without tune/power mod changes. The guys running faster than this seem to use WMI and a lot of engine/turbo changes.
The heat soak from driving to the track does have an impact on the performance. Now I'm spoiled because I was looking at future project cars that I could *possibly* afford: Scat Pack Charger, Corvette Stingray, Shelby GT350/350R, and the SHO could run with any of these factory cars on the 1/4 mile. I raced against a Scat Pack Charger and we crossed the 1/4 mile line within 0.04 seconds but he had 115+ mph trap speed and was able to zoom past me beyond the 1/4 mile line at the track. So respect goes out to the torquey OHV V8s.
Thanks for the update! What sort of changes did you make if you did not make lot of big changes or run WMI? 12.40 is a great ET and mph.Quote:
Originally Posted by metroplex
Can any of this be applied to a 14 f150 ecoboost?
This guide applies to almost all '11-14 Ford ecoboosts. Its probably also the best out there for the '15+ as well, although the newer pcm is more indepth the same concepts apply.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill88stang
Great info
Thanks for this guide. I'm just starting out with my first Ecoboost 3.5 (2013 MKS). I previously used HPTuners on a 2002 Buick Regal, so the Ford stuff is new to me.
I'm just starting out. I've read the vehicles PCM and now am scanning to see what's what. I am recording the PIDs listed from the Data Logging Guide. I have a few basic questions.
For monitoring knock, should I graph "Knock Retard". I have been and it seems to go negative at random times. What does that mean?
What is the Borderline Knock PID telling me? Same for the Knock Octane Modifier, Preingnition Modifier and Learned Average - these are all new to me.
For AFR, I've been watching WB EQ Ratio Bank 1 & 2. Is this correct? I assume they should pretty much follow each other.
And is there a PID for what gear the transmission is in. I can't find one that will graph.
Knock Retard should have a label next to it that says +Adv/-Ret, so a negative value means there is knock and it is pulling timing. Another way to verify if there is knock is to log Total Spark Advance or Final Spark Advance, Borderline Knock, and MBT Spark. The Borderline Knock is the spark commanded from the Borderline spark table(s). This would be identified via the Spark Source PID. If BKT is higher than MBT, the Spark Source may switch to "Base".
WB EQ Ratio should be the actual lambda, what the wideband O2 sensor is seeing.
I put some 87 in to see what effect it has. At WOT, I saw positive knock up to 4*. I still see negative values here and there.
Are yout logging final spark or total spark as well as borderline and spark source? Total spark should be borderline minus any knock. The ECU can add spark if it doesn't detect knock but usually in normal driving conditions and not at WOT.
This is a WOT run on 87 octane. (Engine is a 3.5 TT V6, but the HPTuners shows it as a 2.5L, 4 cyl in the header)
I'm logging "Timing Advance" and graphing "Spark". Not sure if they are the same and if either is "Total Spark" or "Final Spark". Where the cursor is the borderline knock is 22* and KR is 2.5*, which is pretty much 19.5 (about equal to timing advance and spark.
The negative values pop up here and there, never very large. There's a small one at the beginning of the run.
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