They are 100cc heads. How thick is the head gasket? Domed pistons on that Eagle kit?
https://eaglerod.com/item/5527353-co...v-tall-454-1pc
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They are 100cc heads. How thick is the head gasket? Domed pistons on that Eagle kit?
https://eaglerod.com/item/5527353-co...v-tall-454-1pc
This sounds shady. The piston size and intended use will dictate the final bore size when done correctly.Quote:
Originally Posted by oldpartsnrust
-3CC dished
So they say to add to the volume as a positive value in the calculator.
I ordered head gaskets (Cometic) that are 0.075" thick
Yeah, I was not all that happy when the guy told me 4.315" bore... This time I sent the pistons with the block, they came back numbered and fitted per cylinder.
Block is ready. Supposedly the line hone/bore is 'tight' whatever that means and the pistons are fitted to each cylinder. I guess that means that each cylinder was bored to match the piston? New cam bearings and the freeze plugs were already brass, so they are O.E.M. I will post pics of the block once I get it back. It was done on Thursday, but just getting out of the hospital sapped a bit of ambition. Couple that with the fact that a tropical storm was indiscriminately dumping rain all over the place AND that I have an open trailer, I decided to wait till Monday.
Anyone care to check my compression calculation? (No, I won't blame anyone if it is wrong and I blow it up. I've already done that myself and I own it!).
deck height: 9.780" (0.00" piston clearance)
piston volume: +0.183" (+3 CC dish style)
combustion chamber size: 6.102" (100 CC)
head gasket bore: 4.500"
head gasket thickness: 0.075"
cylinder bore: 4.310"
stroke: 4.25"
I came up with 9.3:1
anyone?
Block is now home safe:
Attachment 150607
Bored to pistons:
Attachment 150603 Attachment 150604 Attachment 150605 Attachment 150606
So after struggling with the spirolox removal and seeing that everyone else struggles with it like I do.... I took a 1/4" drive flat blade screwdriver bit and ground it down on an angle and it worked amazingly well at prying out the edge to be able to be grabbed by pliers for removal... Once you can pry the edge out of the groove and get it grabbable, it is game over for the keeper!
Attachment 150695
Ok, learning a bit more about ping, quench height and CR. Looking at 0.036 with the current deck height and an 0.030 Head gasket. 10.1:1 if I get 4.630 bore gasket. Thinking my previous 0.030 quench height may have contributed to ping?
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldpartsnrust
I'm getting 10.05:1 CR with the 0.030" gasket and .006" deck clearance. 8.39:1 DCR with the cam 212/218 .510/.510 113+3 and 6.135" rod. Kinda pushing it there with that chamber design and iron heads.Quote:
Originally Posted by oldpartsnrust
Since the heads are off now would be the time to do some bowl work, especially on the exhaust side.
Tight quench reduces knock sensitivity, even when tightening it up increases the C.R. Proper quench is much more important than static or dynamic compression for a pump gas street engine. If you can run .036" without the piston rock causing a collision (depends on bore size, and piston/wall clearance) you aren't going to get much better than that, increasing it will only make it more knock-prone.
Loose piston/wall, and larger bore needs more piston to head clearance to avoid contact which will pinch the top ring land.
The Internet says dynamic compression is something you should pay attention to, engines built in the real world say that it's not. Keep the quench tight and it will be fine.
Yes the quench is pretty good. If it does knock it can be brought in with timing adjustments.
Ok, so I took a look at the block to verify the deck # and apparently I misread it the first time around. It is 9.794".
Additionally, the rod lengths are 6.385". Not sure if that affects the dynamic CR or not as I don't know how to calculate that myself yet.
I took a pic of what was stamped into the block.
Attachment 150908
IF my assumptions are correct now, this would give me 0.014" deck to piston clearance (to be verified once I get the crank and at least one piston in to check with feeler gauges and straight edge). SO, the gasket I got has 4.370" bore and 0.030" compressed thickness. This would give right around 9.9:1? I ALWAYS put premium in everything I own, even my freakin free lawn mowers.... So around here the minimum I have seen is 91 and it is usually 92. Upstate in NY I have seen as low as 89, but I have octane booster as well.
Deck Height: 9.794
Bore: 4.310
Stroke: 4.25
Gasket Bore: 4.370
Compressed Thickness: 0.030
Cylinder Head Volume: 100CC
Piston Head Volume: 3CC
Compression Height (in.): 1.270 in
Stroke: 4.250 in
Rod Length: 6.385 in.
Advertised Intake Duration 264
Advertised Exhaust Duration 270
Intake Duration at .050 Inch Lift 212
Exhaust Duration at .050 Inch Lift 218
Intake Valve Lift 0.51
Exhaust Valve Lift 0.51
Lobe Separation 113
Valve Timing Lift 0.006
Exhaust Close ATDC -6
Intake Open BTDC -5
Exhaust Open BBDC 44
Intake Close ABDC 37
Lifter Style Hydraulic Roller
Attachment 150907
If I remember correctly, the knock sensor was always reading knock? I am still hoping that this was a result of the oiling issue causing valvetrain noise which was being interpreted as knock? I also recall that the addition of octane booster did nothing to the sensor reading?
Assuming these measurements are correct, then the quench would result in 0.044" (which still seems to be in the target range?) and compression of 9.9:1 without fiddling with any head work or anything like that? I only say that because this is simply the family tow vehicle and should never see the northside of 5000RPM. I do expect to be towing about 4000-5000lbs through the mountains which is what took out the stock 454 at 179,000 miles AND an oil diverter baffle failure that wedged it into the oil passage resulting in a death rattle when I tapped the brake after the cruise had a downshift and rev to 5000RPM (4 rods spinning at once is what it looked like when taken apart...)
Sounds like this is a feasible combination? I originally was shooting for lower compression, but thought my heads were 110CC and not 100CC....
Edit: I also have a 4-row aluminum radiator.
Just so it is all here instead of scattered all over my shed/workbench and various notes:
Factory Spec Journal Diameter:
Mains - 1-4: 2.7494, 5: 2.7488
Rods - 2.20"
Measured Journal Diameter:
Mains
1 - 2.74955"
2 - 2.74935"
3 - 2.74945"
4 - 2.7494"
5 - 2.7486"
Rods:
1 - 2.1999"
2 - 2.1999"
3 - 2.19995"
4 - 2.1999"
Rod Positions:
1 - Ser# 04092
2 - Ser# 03878
3 - Ser# 04651
4 - Ser# 04020
5 - Ser# 04111
6 - Ser# 08082
7 - Ser# 04001
8 - Ser# 04170
Rod Torque Spec (ARP): 63 Ft/Lb
I reviewed the tops of the pistons I removed and saw zero evidence of any pitting or other signs of detonation nor any signs of contact with heads, valves, etc. There was ample evidence of swirl in the carbon build up patterns from when it was running rich before the tuning started.
Attachment 151003
I was running 9.780" on the block so there was 0.000" clearance and the 0.030" gasket gave a quench of 0.030" (dumb luck). The knock sensor was reading knock, the valvetrain was making every conceivable noise you can think of and the engine ran a little sluggish. I added octane booster on top of the 92 octane gas that I run all the time and it did zero for the knock sensor readings. Disabling the knock sensor made it run fantastic, even if it was only for one jaunt around the block, but I could tell the difference immediately. Figuring that the new block now has deck clearance of 0.014" and I will be using the same 0.030" head gaskets it comes out to 9.938:1 via the calculator. The quench will be 0.044" which is still inside the 'recommended' range, but a 0.001" but hey, It's in there! Assuming that any knock could be tuned out with timing or other tweaks, I think this is what I want to run. Unless anyone has any reason that I should change something? By all means please add any input. I was also considering the 0.040" head gasket that gets it to about 9.6:1, but sacrificing quench, which would be at 0.054". But for now sticking with the 0.030" and 9.938:1.
Long story short, this thread may be back on-track with TUNING shortly here....
Got rings fitted. Hayes file fit on hypereutectic KB pistons. 0.029" for top ring, 0.023 for 2nd. ring. Going for crank bearing clearances check and install next.
Got pistons, pins and rods sorted:
#1. 1615.23G
#2. 1615.41G
#3. 1615.12G
#4. 1614.93G
#5. 1615.15G
#6. 1615.18G
#7. 1615.33G
#8. 1615.03G
Did you happen to check bore clearance on the skirt?
I did not. I left that to the machine shop. SUPPOSEDLY, they fitted each piston to each bore and then stamped the pistons with the cyl #. I had given them the block, pistons and spec sheet that came with the pistons. I'll see if I can figure it out.... I don't think my tools measure that big, but I will check.
EDIT: Ordered a 4-5" micrometer (el cheapo) and should be here Thursday. I'll give it a go to see what I can come up with.
Ugh, Amazon 2 day delivery turned into 3 day again... I don't mind 3 day, but DON'T LIE and say 2 DAY!!! :)
Also, looking at the Factory specs, the 'builder recommended' clearances would have put the crank in 'out of service range'. The factory spec is different for each main journal almost:
MAINS:
#1 - 0.0017" - 0.0030"
#2-#4 - 0.0011" - 0.0024"
#5 - 0.0025" - 0.0038"
RODS:
0.0011" - 0.0028"
I am going to try to stick to the tighter end of the spectrum.
Alright... got the following clearances on the mains:
#1 - 0.0017" - (Spec says 0.0017" - 0.0030") - Can you split sizes on mains? I was considering 0.0010" extra clearance, half (0.0005") for the upper bearing here ( for 0.0022")?
#2 - 0.0015" - (Spec says 0.0011" - 0.0024")
#3 - 0.0016" - (Spec says 0.0011" - 0.0024")
#4 - 0.0015" - (Spec says 0.0011" - 0.0024")
#5 - 0.0020" - (Spec says 0.0025" - 0.0038") - Ordered 0.001" extra clearance to get to 0.0030" as per factory manual
Got new extra clearance bearings for rods and undersized for crank mains. This would go a lot quicker without my day job, kid's activities, hospitalization, blood clots AND recent covid!!!!
#1 - 0.0022" - (Spec says 0.0017" - 0.0030")
#2 - 0.0015" - (Spec says 0.0011" - 0.0024")
#3 - 0.0016" - (Spec says 0.0011" - 0.0024")
#4 - 0.0015" - (Spec says 0.0011" - 0.0024")
#5 - 0.0032" - (Spec says 0.0025" - 0.0038")
Ship it! Cam going in shortly...
Cam is in, crank is in and torqued to spec (105 Ft/Lb) in 3 stages. I also installed the #5 cap o-ring and put a touch of sealer at the edge where the cap ends at the rear main as well. Crank Rotates really nice. Same with the Cam. Cleaning up the cam parts and timing chain/gear and should be installing tomorrow. Then Rods! I can see the light at the end of the tunnel!. :)
My daughter hit a curb with the car, still learning how to drive, and learning IN A MANUAL! Had to go swap a tire and didn't get to the build last night, then worked tonight... Time. If anyone figures out how to manufacture it they will be set!
I hope I live long enough to actually finish getting this thing back together, running and tuned! Icing in the cake would be a successful run from PA to NY towing some stuff! I am going to try to get the pistons in this weekend, connecting rod bearing clearances measured and adjusted, and the deck clearance measured so I can verify the correct head gasket and then start the 'don't have to measure everything and can just start bolting crap together portion till I get to the valvetrain geometry...
Looking forward to it, too.
color scheem of the motor says it meant to be
Yeah it's pretty cool isn't it?
Attachment 152950
Thanks! Didn't get back on it yet, wound up replacing control arms, axles and ball joints on my Wife's Sienna this weekend... sheesh...
man... OK, trying to get back on this tomorrow! Wound up swapping transmissions (and rear differential) in my kids car because of a bad 3rd/4th grinding noise.... That and my actual job keep butting in line to take all my time!
Was working on this again last night and trying to get good clearance measurements with Plastigage, but the caps are stubborn to get off once torqued. I was placing the plastigage on the rod side and pulling the rod up with the cap, and then knocking the rod back down to free it up without compressing the plastigage any while doing that. It is tedious and I wound up inadvertently spinning the crank slightly while torquing the bolts. Sheesh... SO gotta start over on that. I don't want to skip or rush this part, so will try to get back on it shortly. I THINK I got a measurement of about 0.0020", and I plan to add a 0.0005" thicker half shell and remeasure. All the journals were basically right on the spec, so I will confirm that it is between 0.0011" and 0.0029" but shooting for about 0.0013" - 0.0017". Going by my cheap ass micrometer and dial indicator, the clearance is about 0.0025", which is still in spec, but I want it on the tighter side this go around.
Got the pistons in. Soon back to the tuning after I get this back in!
Attachment 154244
bottom end done. Ready for heads
Edit:
I jumped the gun on this... I have to do some hostage negotiations with the pan as there is some interference with the crank (most likely the rod bolts.). Getting pretty motivated so I don't think this will delay me for too long. I like beating the crap out of stuff with a dead blow mallet, so I am kinda looking forward to some exercise! :)
Looks good except maybe the lifter bores were overlooked. Can't tell for sure, but it looks like wear grooves especially in #1. When you get the pan on run the oil pump with a drill. While doing this, turn the engine over with a socket and monitor for oil pressure drops.
Bushings and anti-rotation slots are an option before you get too far along.
I'm sure you realize the heads valve train assembly need to be on during the pressure check. You already mentioned putting the heads on, but thought I'd clarify.
Gonna go get an eyeball on them before I get too far along. I don't recall any concerns when I was disassembling. Honestly this block seemed a good bit better than the one that came out of it. The machine shop guy commented as well on that. BUT I don't want to do this a third time, so gonna double check. Thanks for the heads up.
Lot of good info on the subject. I like listening to this guy talk. He did a video about upgrading a Y-block that is interesting, too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9bFVz_uUC0
Ok, so what I heard is reassuring as there is a higher tolerance for the roller lifter set. Now, to actually measure stuff is gonna take another minute. I have ALMOST successfully negotiated release conditions for my crank with my oil pan (slight scraping with no pan gasket and torqued down on all 20 bolts. So, if I can clearance it with no gasket, I am figuring I am good with a gasket. I will of course check again with the gasket, but that is where I am aiming. I can work on those lifter bore measurements next. My dial bore gauge kit says 0.7" - 6.0" and the bore is supposed to be at 0.842", SO that SHOULD be measurable by my current kit. Additionally I have a antique Snap-on 0-1" dial micrometer (One owner, me!) and SHOULD be able to check this in house... This weekend is my target weather wise and time wise, HOWEVER I am on-call for my company and will probably be capped at the knees on my personal stuff... So, fingers crossed that doesn't happen! The sad truth, at least for me, is "life happens while you're making plans". OR, "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the face" - Mike Tyson.
Lots of us out here in forum land wishing you good luck brother!! Been watching you for a ...while... now :)Quote:
Originally Posted by oldpartsnrust
Thank you! Getting there,,,, slowly(obviously very slowly)... Latest hurdle, I ran out of gas for tacking the oil pickup on the pump..... off to the welding supply!