TC Duty Cycle tables for 4T60E in '97 Bonneville?

Just had the 4T60E in my '97 Bonnie rebuilt, and we elected to use the TC that has the paper-lined lockup clutch. According to the builder this type of lockup clutch is only usable if PWM is disabled to allow a full-on, no-slip lockup. The PCM isn't set up to do this at the moment, and unfortunately the gentleman doing my tuning (screen name PDXGTP) is telling me the TC Duty Cycle tables are not showing up in the tuning file for my car. He can see the tables on his '98 GTP, but not for my '97 Bonnie. Anybody know if this parameter is stored somewhere else for my car, or if there is an alternative way to tune for a full TC lockup? Thanks.

97's seem to be left out at the moment. An existing request thread can be found in the request sub-forum.

Thanks a lot for the reply. I'll put something in the request forum.

Sounds good.. but I was saying that there is already a request in there (not sure if I started the thread.. but I know I posted in it).

Sorry about the confusion... nothing like redundancy redundancy ;)

On a related note, I emailed Bill at HPT and he got back to me very quickly. He had me email my file to them so they could see if it's possible to put something in to control TC duty cycle. I sure hope they have success, because I'm limited to slow speeds and manual 3rd gear to limit TC lockup right now.

Out of curiousity, do the '97s GPs have the 4T60E or the 4T65E? I'm wondering if the duty cycle tables are unavailable because of something funky with the 4T60E.

Well.. It is kinda odd.. If I remember correctly, the 97 GP GT still uses the 4T60E (the only year of GT form 97-03 that way)..

However. The 97 GTP uses the 4T65E-HD just like the 98-03 GTPs.

Ben,
Did you get the second email I set you?
HPT has the box in the controls/trans with TCC-PWM on/off and value adjusts.
Either TCC Duty or TCC PWM will help to remedy this issue. I'd love to see HPT unlock eiher parameter.

Yes I did get your second email. I would also like to see them unlock the PWM features, as this seems like it would be extremely helpful in this case.

And bilemke, it sounds like the GPs are just like the Bonnevilles. In 97 the L36 Bonnies got the 4T60E while the L67 versions received the 65E. In 98 GM decided to switch over the entire line. I guess they had to phase it in for some reason?

Still dealing with this issue, and wondering if anyone else has insight. As far as we know the TCC duty cycle isn't supported for the '97 model year, and I'm willing to think outside the box for a work-around solution. Is it possible to make my PCM think it's really a '98? Would this solve the problem? Or is this really an issue of software support for the 4T60E vs. the 4T65E?

What other options might I have? I'm posting my file if anyone wants to dig around in it. Thanks for the help.

Big News -

I talked to Aaron today about my own issues with trying to get the 1997 PCM to 1)Act like it has an L67 and 2) Act like it has a 4t-60. Aside from the additions the -65 has electrically, the solenoid pinouts between the two PCMs (one with the 60, one with a 65) are the same. He suggested running the 65 tables for my application. I fished around and it looks like the pressure motor can be disabled in the 65 file.

Not sure if it will work, but its worth a shot.

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Originally Posted by sandrock

Big News -

I talked to Aaron today about my own issues with trying to get the 1997 PCM to 1)Act like it has an L67 and 2) Act like it has a 4t-60. Aside from the additions the -65 has electrically, the solenoid pinouts between the two PCMs (one with the 60, one with a 65) are the same. He suggested running the 65 tables for my application. I fished around and it looks like the pressure motor can be disabled in the 65 file.

Not sure if it will work, but its worth a shot.

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Thanks for the email you sent. I'm excited to try this, as it seems it is supposed to work. Hopefully it will give me the parameters I'm looking for, as we could just be SOL being a '97 model year. I'll give it a shot, though!

I tried the method on my freakshow tune, and aside from the higher-than-normal shift points, I was able to get to third gear. (Keep in mind my tune is in its infant stages and nowhere near "there" just yet...the test drive was just around the block), it seemed to work. Though I have had no chance to try the TCC yet.

You will need to disable the shift force motor, and maybe the input shaft speed sensor, since the -60 does not have these. After that, I suppose it's just the matter of plugging in the shift strategies of the -60.

In your tune are you able to see the TCC Duty Cycle tables now? That's specifically what I'm looking for. If I can't get to them I'm still screwed.

Thanks!

Just checked it, and unfortuneately not in the 1997 file. I opened a 2000 GTP file and I could....wonder if that function just isn't available for 1997, no matter what transmission?

EDIT - Looks like that is the case my friend. NO 97 file has that option, but shows up in 1998. Looks like if we want that function, we are going to have to custom make a harness, or spend alot of time repinning the ones we have, to accept a 1998 PCM.

Or we can bug the powers that be to unlock this feature if it is available. Though with the -65 no even having the option, I doubt it is.

Thanks for checking into that. Looks like I might be back at square one :(

I put in a direct request to Bill at HPT a few weeks ago and he said they would take a look at it. I checked back with them a couple days ago and he told me they haven't messed around with it yet, but I still have hope they might unlock it. I feel like such a weenie for putting a different torque converter in the car without knowing 100000000% that I coud tune for it!

By the way, why couldn't we do some sort of copy/paste job with a '98 or later 4T65 config file? I don't know the software very well, but would that even be possible?

What other options might I have? You mentioned repinning a harness to mate with a '98 PCM... how tough would this be?

Thanks!

Wouldn't be tough...just time consuming. It might be a better option to re-harness instead of re-pinning. I'll look into it later.

Is there any way to copy '98 GTP transmission tables over the tables in my file? Any chance this would give me the functionality I'm looking for?

Thanks.

TTT

Any ideas? I'm willing to explore all options... Anybody know exactly what it would take to use a '98 PCM for a '65E in a '97 with a '60E? I'll rewire or re-harness if I need to.... I've just got to get this car back in good shape.

I have note read about it being done in a Grand Prix yet.. Otherwise I would comment further. The HPT guys might know more about the switches in the calibration to make such a thing happen though.

I have a sister with a 97 Grand Prix GT that is in the same boat as you. I have a 97 GTP without someone of the TCC tables mapped as well.. I have found some through other means, but not all.

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Originally Posted by bilemke

I have a sister with a 97 Grand Prix GT that is in the same boat as you. I have a 97 GTP without someone of the TCC tables mapped as well.. I have found some through other means, but not all.

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Can you elaborate on this a little more? Which of the other TCC tables did you find through other means? Is there anything you have found that could disable or modify the pulse width modulation lockup?

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Originally Posted by big_news_1

TTT

Any ideas? I'm willing to explore all options... Anybody know exactly what it would take to use a '98 PCM for a '65E in a '97 with a '60E? I'll rewire or re-harness if I need to.... I've just got to get this car back in good shape.

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Ben, if you need/have to go to a 98-up PCM, you will have to rewire the PCM harness...move pins here and there. Go to this site for your pinouts and any 1998 style PCM:

http://home.att.net/~subzero350/

To run the -60 with it, just connect everything you normally would with the exception of the force motor and the trans speed sensor (not talking about the one at the tailshaft). Then set those values to zero, and delete the codes associated with those controls.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by big_news_1

Can you elaborate on this a little more? Which of the other TCC tables did you find through other means? Is there anything you have found that could disable or modify the pulse width modulation lockup?

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Tables aren't for the 97 with the 60.. My GTP however, I do have access to a few of the additional TCC tables. (Apply Rate and DC, via a hex editor).

The solution in the above post is probably your best choice unless you want to wait for tables to be mapped in the 97s.

Actually I had suggested that we convert the car to a 4T65-E because I have a spare built and waiting in my shop in the back yard. I also have several known good 97 bonneville bins with a 4T65-E.
So he needs an l67 top swap & a 4T65-E.
I have enough parts to do the top swap too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PDXGTP

Actually I had suggested that we convert the car to a 4T65-E because I have a spare built and waiting in my shop in the back yard. I also have several known good 97 bonneville bins with a 4T65-E.
So he needs an l67 top swap & a 4T65-E.
I have enough parts to do the top swap too.

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Lol! I'll do it if you can explain to my wife why we're swapping out my newly rebuilt 4T60E (which cost $2200, by the way) for a different tranny!:D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sandrock

Ben, if you need/have to go to a 98-up PCM, you will have to rewire the PCM harness...move pins here and there. Go to this site for your pinouts and any 1998 style PCM:

http://home.att.net/~subzero350/

To run the -60 with it, just connect everything you normally would with the exception of the force motor and the trans speed sensor (not talking about the one at the tailshaft). Then set those values to zero, and delete the codes associated with those controls.

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So as long as I get the pins in the right places, the physical harness will mate up to a 98+ PCM??? So maybe this is what I ought to do, eh?

Thomas, does this look like something you would be interested in helping with? I'm not all that good with wiring/electronics... what do you think?

Sounds about right Ben. If you decide to go with a -65, your best bet would be to secure the trans harness intact...meaning go to the junkyard, separate the wheat from the chaff, so to speak, all the way to the PCM pins.

Quote:

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Actually I had suggested that we convert the car to a 4T65-E because I have a spare built and waiting in my shop in the back yard. I also have several known good 97 bonneville bins with a 4T65-E.
So he needs an l67 top swap & a 4T65-E.
I have enough parts to do the top swap too.

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He wouldn't *need* the top swap. Only pins that the OS would add would be BCS related, and those codes can be turned off, and values zeroed out. All the other tables could mimic an L36, or whatever his tune is. At least, I *think* so.

But if he WANTS the topswap...well....that's whole 'nuther game =)

Looks like I may have gotten the update I needed from the HP Tuners team. Downloading now.

NICE! Let me know how that works for you. I'm having trans issues of my own now :shrug:

The update we got still didn't fix the issue :(

Here's the deal: When I had the tranny built, the technician said the TCC was slipping about 200 RPM when locked. He said the paper-lined converter clutch we installed has a maximum allowable slip of only about 10 RPM. So we're trying to get the TCC to slip less than 10 RPM when locked so the clutch doesn't get burnt up. Makes sense, right?

Today, after downloading the update for HP Tuners, we used Autotap to monitor TCC slip when under lockup. We monitored a parameter called TCC Slip RPM, but for some reason it didn't seem to be giving us accurate data. It kept showing 1 or 2 as the value while cruising, and every now and then would show 31 when I let off the gas. Then while idling at a stop sign it normally read 0. Nothing like the 200 RPM the technician claimed to have seen. So we pulled up "Engine RPM" and "Transmission Input Shaft RPM" and figured that the two numbers should be almost identical if the TCC were locking up properly. We found that on average the two numbers were 150-200 RPM different, which seems to verify what my tranny builder told me.

The crappy thing is that changing my TCC Duty Cycle didn't affect the numbers at all. The HP Tuners update gave me a mutant form of the regular Duty Cycle controls (hopefully Thomas will post them up in the near future), but they seemed to have no effect on the relationship between Engine RPM and Input Shaft RPM. No matter what we did the numbers were always about 200 RPM different. We changed PCMs, we monkeyed with the duty cycle minimum, we even held hands and prayed to the Almighty God. Nothing worked. We have a theory that it has something to do with the Duty Cycle minimum table referencing line pressure, which I don't have. Beyond that, we just can't figure it out.

Are we going about this wrong? Were we correct in watching Engine RPM compared to Input Shaft RPM? Are we missing something vital?

I'm about to take a sledge hammer to this car and be done with it :mad:

Lets see if this will allow me to past a pic.
This is the slip Ben was talking about.
Now I need to edit this post.
I believe the new parameters did not work because this car does not have a pressure transducer.
The parameter needs line pressure vs trans oil temp and it only has data for the trans oil temp.
Bummer.

So, let me get this straight....

1997 models, no matter what trans they got, got the same trans operation system??

Ben, if this is the case...you might want to consider what Bill is doing with his '97. It may very well be the only way for you to go now.

if you log the TCC Duty cycle PID and it is showing 99-100% then the TCC line pressure is at its maximum, ie. the solenoid is fully open applying full pressure from the TCC supply line to the TCC clutch to lock it. If that is not enough pressure to lock the TCC then to me it points towards a hydraulic issue. ie. the main pressure control solenoid (the force motor) is not supplying enough base pressure to hold the other workings and provide to the TCC etc. or some other detailed trans issue.

The 97 V6's have slightly different min/max values for the duty cycle in that there is only one single max value and a 2d table for the min value (compared to the two min/max 3d tables for the later code). In all other respects the code looks the same, and in actual fact is mostly the same code (logic) used on the LS1 V8 PCM's.

Hope that helps,

Chris...

also, have you tried logging TCC Slip RPM using VCM Scanner?

TCC Slip RPM is calculated as the difference between the Engine RPM and the Turbine RPM and Turbine RPM is the the Input RPM multiplied by your sprocket/chain ratio.

If your trans doesn't have an input speed sensor then input speed is calculated back from the output sensor speed multiplied by the ratio of whatever gear you are in.

You cannot log Turbine RPM, but you should be at least able to verify that in 4th gear your input and output RPM match. You can use user defined pids if you need to calculate Slip RPM from Engine RPM etc. to check the logged value of TCC Slip RPM.

Chris...

Thanks Chris,
That's how we measured the slip but we used a different program because I didn't know we could use HPT to do this.

Just a FYI, I requested/downloaded the the latest beta for my 97 GTP. TCC tables are present and working. (I had seen them in the past, but not in HPTuner yet.)

I suspected it is something with the 4T60E vs the 4T65E.. The 97 Grand Prix GT (as it turns out) was the only Grand Prix from 97-03 to not use the 4T65E.

I makes me wonder how the 60 applies the TCC.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chris@HPTuners

if you log the TCC Duty cycle PID and it is showing 99-100% then the TCC line pressure is at its maximum, ie. the solenoid is fully open applying full pressure from the TCC supply line to the TCC clutch to lock it. If that is not enough pressure to lock the TCC then to me it points towards a hydraulic issue. ie. the main pressure control solenoid (the force motor) is not supplying enough base pressure to hold the other workings and provide to the TCC etc. or some other detailed trans issue.

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So you're saying that if TCC Duty Cycle shows 100% (which it did when we scanned) there should be zero slip during lockup? How does pulse width modulation (PWM) figure into the equation? Does this mean my car is already programmed for 100% no-slip lockup if I see duty cycle at 100% while cruising?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chris@HPTuners

TCC Slip RPM is calculated as the difference between the Engine RPM and the Turbine RPM and Turbine RPM is the the Input RPM multiplied by your sprocket/chain ratio.

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When we were watching the scanner we were directly comparing Engine RPM with Input Shaft RPM... is this wrong? Are you saying we need to multiply Input Shaft RPM by a certain factor to come up with the correct number? If so, we were doing it wrong.

How would a person correctly figure this equation? I have a 3.43 FDR.

if you are seeing 100% TCC Duty Cycle then the TCC Pressure Solenoid is fully open. The PWM signal (duty cycle) is the percent "open" the solenoid is (roughly speaking). If it shows 0% then it is fully closed ie. a release. If it is 100% it is fully open ie. locking.

The TCC works by hydraulic pressure coming from the main line feed (controlled by the force motor solenoid). If there is not enough pressure in the main line to hold the TCC clutch when the TCC solenoid is fully open then it will slip. Generally when coasting the base trans pressure is not very high and if you need a lot of pressure to lock your TCC then you might want to modify the force motor table to increase pressure across the board.

It may also be an issue with the trans design and hydraulic pathways but this is something that is beyond my knowledge.

Chris...

That's good food for thought. Perhaps we can try more tuning sometime soon. I need to get my own setup so I don't keep bothering Thomas, though ;)


So can you confirm or deny that we were figuring TCC slip correctly?

Chris, I think you are stuck in 4T65 mode. The 4T60 never came with a force motor. It's fluid pressure is controlled solely by the vaccuum modulator. Solenoids A,B, TCC PWM, and TCC enable solenoids function in the same manor though.

This is why I am confused when I see force motor values in Bens -60e file. They shouldn't be there at all when Laymans logic is applied.

TCC Slip RPM is the difference between the Engine RPM and the Turbine RPM. The Turbine is the inner part of the converter that goes to the tranmission. The engine is connected to the outer housing of the converter. So the difference between the two is the converter slip.

On most FWD cars the turbine does not connect directly to the input shaft, but there is a chain/sprocket system that connects the two. In some cases the ratio of this chain/sprocket is 1:1 so turbine speed would be the same as input speed, but in some cases it is not. eg. a GTP usually has 1.121:1 sprocket ratio, so in that case the input speed is Turbine RPM / 1.121 meaning the input speed is 1.121 slower than the turbine RPM.

You can see the sprocket ratio in the editor under the speedo section.

Chris...