E67 with 12613412 injectors

Hello, I'm very new to this other than tweaking little things like Idle RPM, disabling PWM fans.. etc. I have a 2007 Saab 9-7x Arc model that originally had the 5.3l LH6 in it. I'm swapping in a brand new 430hp LS3 Crate long block and intend on using the NNBS intake manifold with the stock 5.3 Throttle body and MAF. I wanted to use the 12613412 injectors that came with that NNBS intake but, after alot of searching on here over the last few days I'm struggling to find any injector data that works with the E67 ecm for these injectors. I tried pulling up a tune file from a 2010 Silverado with them but the tables are all skewed differently. Any help would be appreciated as I'm just basically trying to get a base tune done on this thing so I can take it to a local dyno tuner.

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Originally Posted by blindsquirrel

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Thank you very much! I greatly appreciate it! I'm trying to learn but, don't want to do it at the expense of my crate engine lol.

If you're N/A, it only uses the 400-480 columns in the flow rate & offset tables anyhow. The rest to either side of that range can be nonsense data or just placeholders. It's not possible to have a Delta outside that range without boost (left of 400), or more than 58psi rail pressure (right of 480).

I started by using a stock 2008 Corvette LS3, A6 tune file (same E67 ecm) as a comparison and was changing over tables other than the ones related to the maf, Throttle body, MAP and such. I left the intake volume the same as the TBSS intake on my LH6 because I believe the NNBS intake is nearly identical other than port shape. I noticed the Torque management tables were VERY different. would it be best to leave those the same as the stock truck since I have the 4l60e and 10 bolt at the moment. (I have a RWD 4l80e with a trans go HD2 shift kit, 3000 stall converter, and stock TBSS 14 bolt going in after I get the engine sorted. The kit I bought for the 4l80e already had a programmed T42 TCM included.)

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Originally Posted by blindsquirrel

If you're N/A, it only uses the 400-480 columns in the flow rate & offset tables anyhow. The rest to either side of that range can be nonsense data or just placeholders. It's not possible to have a Delta outside that range without boost (left of 400), or more than 58psi rail pressure (right of 480).

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Thank you, I'm glad you explained that too me. Again, I'm learning so I do appreciate the detailed responses. I do better when someone explains WHY I want to do something as opposed to just telling me to I guess.

2008 LS3 would have been an E38, Corvettes only used E67 with the LS9. But either E38 or E67 pre-mid-'09 will have the same scaling you found didn't line up in the '10 truck files.

The key to look for is the injector flow rate limit (hover over the button and look at the tooltip at bottom right). If it's 63lb max then it's an '09-down ECM and has the 128-640 axis scaling, if it's 127lb then it's '09-up and has 128-768 scaling. Both versions have the same number of cells/columns though, so a lot of people just copy/paste the data from one to the other and don't notice that it's completely wrong afterwards.

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Originally Posted by blindsquirrel

2008 LS3 would have been an E38, Corvettes only used E67 with the LS9. But either E38 or E67 pre-mid-'09 will have the same scaling you found didn't line up in the '10 truck files.

The key to look for is the injector flow rate limit (hover over the button and look at the tooltip at bottom right). If it's 63lb max then it's an '09-down ECM and has the 128-640 axis scaling, if it's 127lb then it's '09-up and has 128-768 scaling. Both versions have the same number of cells/columns though, so a lot of people just copy/paste the data from one to the other and don't notice that it's completely wrong afterwards.

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Since you seem to be at the top of the food chain, ;) What is the "Octane Scaling"? [ECM] 13336
E38 2009 Corvette
Attachment 134690

The difference between the cylinders will not be allowed to be higher than the set value, duh! (translation: I don't have the slightest f'in idea what that means or what it has to do with fueling)

(that's 8109; 13336 is Injection Boundary)

Octane Scalar Delta is maximum allowed difference between individual cylinder's Knock Learn Factor.

I.e. if you have Octane Scalar Delta = 0.4 and one cylinder is knocking and have KLF = 1.0 then other cylinder's KLF will be pulled to at least 0.6 (1.0 - 0.4).

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Originally Posted by blindsquirrel

The difference between the cylinders will not be allowed to be higher than the set value, duh! (translation: I don't have the slightest f'in idea what that means or what it has to do with fueling)

(that's 8109; 13336 is Injection Boundary)

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Ah yes. 8109. You are correct.

[/QUOTE]Octane Scalar Delta is maximum allowed difference between individual cylinder's Knock Learn Factor.

I.e. if you have Octane Scalar Delta = 0.4 and one cylinder is knocking and have KLF = 1.0 then other cylinder's KLF will be pulled to at least 0.6 (1.0 - 0.4). [/QUOTE]

That is odd that they would put that in fueling and not spark. So it will in effect modify spark on an individual cylinder basis?

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Originally Posted by blindsquirrel

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Looks like there is a 2010 Silverado in the repository with injector data in the newer column breakpoints...at least for my E38...not sure about E67. I have attached it for reference.

ETA: However, I notice the the example I posted has this value to 4ms, where as my ECM is set to 1ms. What exactly does this do and should I change it?
[ECM] 7977 - Short Pulse Cranking: ECM assumes the engine cranking to be a small pulse if the injector time is lower than the set value.

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It's the '06-'09s with the 128-640 kPa scaling that there's no stock files for. Not with this p/n injector - they're all 2010-up, after the ECMs changed.

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Originally Posted by blindsquirrel

It's the '06-'09s with the 128-640 kPa scaling that there's no stock files for. Not with this p/n injector - they're all 2010-up, after the ECMs changed.

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Ah ok, thank you. Any idea about [ECM] 7977? How should that field be accounted for or changed? Should that follow the injectors or stay stock to the vehicle?

I've never seen that data in aftermarket datasheets; lots of ECMs don't even have that field. I guess you could think of it like the transient stuff - it may need to be changed, but it's not part of the injector characteristics that applies to everything.

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Originally Posted by TheMechanic

So it will in effect modify spark on an individual cylinder basis?

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Seems like it is. I've overlooked important things when typed previous post. So I've deleted it.

Knock Learn Factor is individual for cylinders and have 6 RPM/Airmass Zones.
[8109] Octane Scalar Delta - maximum KLF difference between cylinders in each zone.
There is similar limiter which restricts maximum difference between zones for each cylinder. (Not mapped in HPT)
Knock Learn Factor in VCM Scanner is calculated maximum KLF for all cylinders in the current zone.

Every cylinder have it's own Main Spark High Octane - Low Octane biasing due to individual KLF. So it is possible for one cylinder to work on High Octane spark table and another cylinder on Low Octane.
I see it as potentially dangerous situation for controlled slip TCC and DoD make it even worse.

As I wrote in deleted post there is some logic which is using individual cylinders KLF for idle spark advance limiting.
General idea seems like limiter is calculated for every cylinder as [High Octane spark] - [KLF] * [IdleKnockLearnRetard] + [other IAT, ECT,... corrections].
In my (Escalade 2011) calibration [IdleKnockLearnRetard] is set to 10*.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by blindsquirrel

2008 LS3 would have been an E38, Corvettes only used E67 with the LS9. But either E38 or E67 pre-mid-'09 will have the same scaling you found didn't line up in the '10 truck files.

The key to look for is the injector flow rate limit (hover over the button and look at the tooltip at bottom right). If it's 63lb max then it's an '09-down ECM and has the 128-640 axis scaling, if it's 127lb then it's '09-up and has 128-768 scaling. Both versions have the same number of cells/columns though, so a lot of people just copy/paste the data from one to the other and don't notice that it's completely wrong afterwards.

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Thanks, I was wondering what year it changed. Can the newer operating system be copied to the older hardware?

No, ECM hardware is different (stuff like memory size/addresses/etc., I assume).

Does anyone have good data for 12613412 on E67 with 128-640 kPa scaling? Is interpolation a safe method?

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Originally Posted by griffincox

Is interpolation a safe method?

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For the Flow Rate? Sure. If you had to pick one of the injector tables to just guess at and not cause major problems, it would be the flow rate. And that's all that is in that .xls.

Early 128-640 file
Attachment 157412

Only these 4 fields, which you can see by looking at the changelog (CTRL+L)
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Open that file as Compare with whatever file you are working with, right click and 'Copy Over Selected Differences' (only that one single item you right-clicked on), do that for each of the four and only those four
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Thanks for this info! Can I ask did you put this together or find it? Just curious the methodology going from the later L96 engine controllers to the 2007 E67 and what is involved and how much error there may be, etc. Thanks for all that you do!

Zero out all the cells in the target file. 'Copy With Axis' from the source file. Paste. Interpolate across any cells that didn't get filled in (that's why zero it out first, pretty much impossible to miss them that way). Double check in 2D/3D mode, make sure the result makes logical sense.

The Short Pulse Adder table has the same axis labels, so that one just copies/pastes as-is.