2005 Cummins 60HP Tow Tune - Help with Fuel Economy w/ Raised Rail Pressure Targets

Hey Guys,

I hunted through 40 pages on here scoping out some solid advice from Jim P and so many others, so I finally decided to make my first post on here and get some advice.

We have a low mileage (102k!) 2005 Dodge Ram 3500 Dually with Stock Turbo (I made a custom 6466 Non-Wastegated GTX55 based Ball Bearing setup that didn't work out).

What I am trying to accomplish here is the use of higher base fuel pressure in cruise and shorter pulsewidth to make a very clean, very cold tow tune for this truck. I'm towing a 2022 Grand Design 303RLS and currently the truck is doing fantastic with it; just seeing if there's more on the table in regards to efficiency.

Let's go over what's on it and what I've accomplished so far.

Banks Economind
Banks Intake w/ Superscoop
Banks Exhaust Brake
Built 48RE
265/75R17 Front, 235/80R17 Rear (Dually) inflated to 65psi F and 60psi R respectively.

Currently the truck is on ModFan5 tune (attached) and will do 1320F peak EGT, but sustained will be 1000-1250F at 40psi.
Cruising unloaded will average 20.5-21.5mpg.
Towing will be 10 (steep mountain grade) to 13mpg respectively.
The reason why it's called ModFans is the 195F starting temp, 215F max fan speed settings for Coolant and Transmission Temp. The Mishimoto Transmission cooler bypass insert is coming in the mail this week as mine didn't have it, and the thermostat isn't keeping up.

While I know these are pretty average figures, I thought it would be great to hear the advice from actual diesel tuners like yourselves and see if we can target near peak CP3 pressure figures down low, cut short the injection timing (currently set stock), and let it eat.

On ModFans6 I used the Tony Pinto calculator at 50/50 settings to produce a new timing curve as well. This is the file with the fuel pressure target changes, which I have yet to test.

What do you guys think about these two maps? Where do I go from here?

Cheers,

-Ryan


Attachment 149910

Attachment 149911

You are far better off datalogging where in the map you are operating at on the tables and make small adjustments up and down on timing to find where it needs to be, the so called timing calculators and 50/50 split is just not how it works. What you are theoretically wanting to aim for is the cylinder peak pressure during the combustion event to be around 2 degrees after top dead center and a 50/50 split on your injection event doesn’t give that as many variables effect where your peak cylinder pressure occurs like ambient temperature, injection pressure, fuel temperature, coolant temperature, intake airflow, intake air temperature, altitude, pilot injection event, list goes on and on and without a head fitted with pressure transducers you won’t achieve the target of peak pressure being 2 degrees after top dead center. Honestly 50/50 timing split isn’t even a good starting point. Look at stock and in the cruise region it’s in the 300+% before top dead center. Map out where you are operating and make small adjustments up and down to find what’s best in the operating regions and blend the rest into that.

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Originally Posted by Jim P 2.0

You are far better off datalogging where in the map you are operating at on the tables and make small adjustments up and down on timing to find where it needs to be, the so called timing calculators and 50/50 split is just not how it works. What you are theoretically wanting to aim for is the cylinder peak pressure during the combustion event to be around 2 degrees after top dead center and a 50/50 split on your injection event doesn?t give that as many variables effect where your peak cylinder pressure occurs like ambient temperature, injection pressure, fuel temperature, coolant temperature, intake airflow, intake air temperature, altitude, pilot injection event, list goes on and on and without a head fitted with pressure transducers you won?t achieve the target of peak pressure being 2 degrees after top dead center. Honestly 50/50 timing split isn?t even a good starting point. Look at stock and in the cruise region it?s in the 300+% before top dead center. Map out where you are operating and make small adjustments up and down to find what?s best in the operating regions and blend the rest into that.

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I appreciate the insight there, Jim.

Moreso, what I am trying to figure out here is optimization of fuel economy by means of higher injection pressure.

Maybe I should setup a calculation to have the following:

OEM Injection Pressure x Injector Deadtime (or Injection Time for Diesels apparently) = Given Fuel Flow for an OEM Application.

Raised Injection Pressure x Modified (Lower) Injector Deadtime = Matched Fuel Flow for OEM Application.

Should be an extremely simple calculation to allow me to reduce the injection time and match the total fuel flow, which in theory should drop EGTs and improve cruising MPG.

*Note* Original Thread was missing the cruising unloaded EGT of 600-700F, and loaded 800-900F.

What sort of miracle work have you guys done for Fuel Economy?

Cheers,

-Ryan

I wouldn’t complicate it with trying to derive formulas and stuff, it’s just complicating it more than it needs to be. Your fuel economy isn’t horrible either for the model year, it’s pretty good actually, you’ll be pretty hard pressed to get much more out of it. I would just start with a good datalog to see where in the tables you are operating at for a specific vehicle speed and start with timing, little adjustments up or down till you get what you can out of it then you can say bump up rail pressure a little bit in that region and go back to timing and make little adjustments up or down to see if you can get further improvement. It’s just a time consuming process of little adjustments and logging till you get to where you want to be. Like I said though your fuel economy for that model year isn’t bad at all and you’d be hard pressed to get much more out of it and keep in mind external factors like head wind, tail wind, hotter day, cooler day, things like that are going to through things all over the place. You could get more complex with it by using the modifier tables to try to account for different ambient air temperatures but things like head wind, there’s just nothing you can do about it, it’s just going to pull down fuel economy, think of the surface area and mass you are trying to push through strong head winds, it’s going to take more work to push through it.

It would be pretty cool to try something like this out, so I'll see if a buddy is comfortable making me an Excel Spreadsheet for what I'm talking about above to spit out calculated, reduced "Modified Injection Time" to spit out something that matches the new raised CP3 rail pressure.

Downsides:
CP3 is run harder.
Injectors are run harder.

Upsides:
Bosch built all of this stuff for 30000psi Sustained
Sensor stops reading around 24500psi for this year.
Later trucks all ran higher rail pressure for a reason.

Well it’s more complicated than just that and it’s just making it even more complicated for what, to make it more complicated? The rail pressure relief valve is only good for about 180-190 mPa but you don’t want to run that kind of pressure in cruise region. Tuning shops that have been around tuning those trucks since custom tuning became available for them don’t use timing calculators or excel sheets with formulas to adjust pulsewidth because rail pressure was turned up a bit in a specific spot. They adjust as described above to figure out what’s best what isn’t what works what doesn’t. Your pulsewidth table is the flow characteristics of the injectors, like it’s all tested and measured and inputted into that table. So when you change rail pressure somewhere in the table, it already adjusts your pulsewidth time for the given estimated fuel flow and pressure measured. Unless you are running oversized injectors there isn’t any need to start adjusting the entire pulsewidth table, it doesn’t make sense. The upper end of the pulsewidth table maybe adjust on stock injectors to get more power out of it but there really isn’t anything to facilitate the need to start changing that table everywhere based off of adjusting the rail pressure table.

Even injector latency is already programmed into the ecm and the control algorithm uses it in its calculations. I mean if you want to go through spending a lot of time on something that makes no sense, I mean you are of course free to do so but you really don’t need to.

The purpose of having a target rail pressure increased in towing regions is to drop EGTs further since the injection event is now shorter and should produce a cleaner exhaust as a result. This then allows me to run slightly more power to now match where it was previously and should return with better fuel economy.

Example: 1800 RPM, 4th Gear, 62mph, 900F EGT. Let's say the truck is producing 200hp/300tq to maintain this speed here and fuel consumption is 13mpg.

If we shorten that injection event and EGTs drop an additional 50-100F, I can either run it at 800-850F, OR I can choose to increase power output at that same location maybe up to 240hp/350tq to hit the same 900F EGT. What this should end up doing is resulting in less pedal to maintain speed and fuel economy should increase as a result of that.

See what I mean?

If you say so

I’ll just say expectations versus reality are two different things and like I had previously said, you’ll be super hard pressed to get much more in terms of fuel economy on that model year unless you can turn pro at that hypermiling stuff, axe a lot of weight from the truck and improve it’s aerodynamics.

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Originally Posted by Jim P 2.0

I’ll just say expectations versus reality are two different things and like I had previously said, you’ll be super hard pressed to get much more in terms of fuel economy on that model year unless you can turn pro at that hypermiling stuff, axe a lot of weight from the truck and improve it’s aerodynamics.

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I took your advice on the 12-14k PSI rail pressure at cruise cells and nerfed a bunch of power between 1400-2000 RPM (due to the 4.10 Gearset). Swept the rail pressure up to 26.5k in the high load and high RPM sections and smoothed everything out.

My only question left over is if you could overview the Fuel Timing on the Mod5 file attached above and give me some insight to better shaping/targets.

The truck drives incredibly smooth and has this "tame until you want it" feel, which I believe is resulting in the fuel economy that it just showed. Mod6 was terrible due to other control strategies implemented and giving me full power off of idle and unnecessary smoke, even if peak power is about the same as it is now.

On version #8 of this, so there's been a lot of refinement since these two posted files.

Much appreciated, Jim. Thank you for everything.

Attachment 150325

So that ModFans8 file that I spoke of in my last post came out REALLY clean, drives beautifully well, and does have an improved gas mileage over stock.

What I'm doing now is ramping power back in in hopes to hit 1300-1350F EGT peak, 1000F or so sustained. This 1227F was pouring on throttle HARD, far past the speed limit and is too far detuned for the goals of hauling this 5th Wheel with a bit more gusto.

New file has:

Torque Converter TCC Lockup Changes
More Fuel Max Allowable Fuel from 1600 RPM to 2100 RPM
More Total Injector Mapping
Advanced Timing using Tony's 50/50 Calculator

Excited to show you guys the results tonight/tomorrow.

Attachment 150418

Four tunes later and I landed on this with:

A perfect shifting transmission and TCC lockup/unlock settings.
Top End with timing changes feels incredible.
Fuel Economy is up everywhere.
Peak CP3 Pressures are 25k with an average of 5% bump over OEM everywhere.
Max Injector Duration is around 2400uS.

All I'm trying to do now is chip away at the 1600-2000 RPM tow range (where I made things more efficient, slightly less powerful), and see if there's a better balance to be had there in either direction.

Small note for anyone using a built 48RE w/ Triple Disc Torque Converter; the 4th Gear Output Shaft Speed to shift a 4:10 Gearset is roughly 2150 RPM at 52mph which will make things buttery, and THIS made a world of a difference.

Attachment 150421

Well, this trip got expensive.

Either a failed injector (rev hang before we left) or bad diesel, but it just required us to change things up.

Melted Cylinder #5 and fuel economy was better than ever towing. 13.5mpg on sweeping grades up Highway 101.

The new DFC Longblock has the following mods added to it:

Hamilton 103lb Valve Springs
Hamilton Pushrods
Hamilton Tow Cam
DDP +15% 50HP Injectors with Pilot Hole Technology
ARP Headstuds

Current fuel economy on detuned version of last tune is 14.5mpg unloaded and 8mpg loaded.

It's not my truck anymore... Gutless and breaking in.

Not sure what to do right now or if this horrible efficiency is just due to break in.

Alright, things are going to move forward here with some smarter stuff, so I'll elaborate.

First off, a drop-in BorgWarner S364SX-R with 0.80 A/R T3 Divided, non-wastegate.

MatchBot Specs here:
https://www.borgwarner.com/go/ZS0B8K

Attachment 152103
Attachment 152104
Attachment 152105
Attachment 152106

Attachment 152109

Next up is an Exergy 2200 Bar Relief Valve and higher rail pressure sensor.
Industrial Injection Bag of Parts.

At this point, we are optimizing the hell out of this system like how it was with the OEM Injectors and OEM Turbo, just upsized to handle the task of Cascade Mountain Range and our REAL West Coast grades.

I'll be reporting back with fuel economy and upgrades as I get things sorted and installed.

Cheers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RGHTBrainDesign

Industrial Injection Bag of Parts

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Just a high recommendation, spend the money and get an Exergy or S&S 10mm pump, don’t waste time on a bag of parts and don’t waste money on anything Industrial Injection

Have you done any tuning with the new turbo?

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Originally Posted by Noah

Have you done any tuning with the new turbo?

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Yes.

Right now the truck is the best it's ever been.

Still balancing the Timing and Total Fueling, but the break-in period is mostly done and truck has started to balance out really well at 2500mi.

Attachment 155534

Attachment 155536

Attachment 155535

So previous mapping had this timing and towing was the best it's been since the new block. I thought it was slightly over-timed as temps were excessively low for how the rest is mapped.

Previous Timing and Difference

Attachment 155537

Attachment 155538

Really stoked to see the difference I've made on MY tuning vs. a stock tune for these injectors.

The more experienced folks like Jim will notice quite a high Injector Pulsewidth Deadtime table and this is in attempts to "fool" the ECU into running the engine leaner with the larger injectors. Getting this curve to shape properly for a faster injector took about 80x tries to get solid... Yeah, that was a lot of time.

The lie-o-meter shows a significant bump in fuel economy which is so far proving to be pretty good. Towing about 2.5hrs I used about 1/3rd of a tank going over grades and to the ocean. I'd suspect the shown 13mpg to be close.

Hamilton Cam + S364SX-R in the stock 5.9 is a really nice combo for everything and I haven't felt the need to really be "on it", ever.

Tonight's homework is going over a 60HP Tune file that I purchased and comparing timing to where I was at for these last two files. The last thing I want is to have this thing burning up a piston by latent heat in the piston region vs. out the exhaust.

Let me know what you guys think.

The Hamilton cams really make a difference, would love to put one in my 2012 one day

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RGHTBrainDesign

Yes.

Right now the truck is the best it's ever been.

Still balancing the Timing and Total Fueling, but the break-in period is mostly done and truck has started to balance out really well at 2500mi.

Attachment 155534

Attachment 155536

Attachment 155535

So previous mapping had this timing and towing was the best it's been since the new block. I thought it was slightly over-timed as temps were excessively low for how the rest is mapped.

Previous Timing and Difference

Attachment 155537

Attachment 155538

Really stoked to see the difference I've made on MY tuning vs. a stock tune for these injectors.

The more experienced folks like Jim will notice quite a high Injector Pulsewidth Deadtime table and this is in attempts to "fool" the ECU into running the engine leaner with the larger injectors. Getting this curve to shape properly for a faster injector took about 80x tries to get solid... Yeah, that was a lot of time.

The lie-o-meter shows a significant bump in fuel economy which is so far proving to be pretty good. Towing about 2.5hrs I used about 1/3rd of a tank going over grades and to the ocean. I'd suspect the shown 13mpg to be close.

Hamilton Cam + S364SX-R in the stock 5.9 is a really nice combo for everything and I haven't felt the need to really be "on it", ever.

Tonight's homework is going over a 60HP Tune file that I purchased and comparing timing to where I was at for these last two files. The last thing I want is to have this thing burning up a piston by latent heat in the piston region vs. out the exhaust.

Let me know what you guys think.

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Do you have a new tune file you would not mind sharing? Just getting some ideas.

Once I adapted some changes into the new mapping, got on her hard and tuned out the smoke limit and main pulsewidth table at WOT, the truck really stood out as stellar.

I have a 5% Over on the Higher Commanded Rail Pressure, which may result in fuel being dropped into the piston improperly. This is pretty close to how injection timing works for reciprocating 4-Stroke Gasoline engines and by having it too high or too low will result in less than stellar efficiency.

I'll likely move this back and advance timing a little bit under 2000 RPM and move rail pressure to stock.

Really think this came out nicely.

Pilot Timing and Injection is set to 0 at 2600 RPM and big load, so that may benefit from the stock setting as well. I found on these DDP 50HP (15% Over) Injectors, they preferred 0.75x on the Stock Pilot Injection Amount to really clean up and sound super smooth. This is likely due to the new DDP Pilot Tip Design.

Really honed things in. Truck is happy just like it was waaaaaay back when on the old 5.9 Block on stock injectors.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMjw0Zcd8-A

The time has come.

Final steps now are dialing in the CP3 and the main SOI and pilot timing for spool region to optimize for this turbo. This truck has truly turned into a gem to drive and I have a feeling the towing will be exceptional once we load her up again. By increasing Duty Cycle even 10% in this CP3 Commanded Duty Cycle, I was immediately able to remove smoke and increase pulsewidth from 1679uS to 1850uS with nothing but gains.

Just tuned a local truck here and posted it on my Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/p/DGfSQlcR0LE/

"Really getting the hang of this Diesel Tuning.

Art's 2004 gave me the information I needed to dial in all 3rd Gen stuff for clean power, both 2003-04.5 and 2004.5-2007 5.9Ls.

Fuel Economy
Power
Response
Quieter Operation (Pilot Timing Optimization)

It's crazy to me how well the trucks wake up with tuning and minor mods.

Today I stumbled on High Pressure Pump Fuel Pressure Commanded Duty Cycle (for controlling the CP3 better) and a slight reshape nearly ironed out the pressure command vs. pressure actual delay with very minimal over/undershoot (within 200psi).

To dial in a high pressure fuel pump, you can either do this table (labeled as Fuel Pressure Regulator Base Duty Cycle) or offset the table via the Duty Cycle to Current Conversion table. Both should not be edited as one is a 3D table and the other is a multiplier scalar and they work off of each other.

Easier Route = mA adjustments on scalar table to ramp CP3 in faster. If unplugged, CP3 goes to 0mA which maximizes the duty cycle at 71% (by default). Lowering the values in this table will ramp the CP3 pressure in faster, but too much and you'll overshoot pressure and run into the PID control which will oscillate the pump's pressure.

Longer Route = Mapping Duty Cycle for Fuel Volume (mm3) vs. Engine Speed on a 3D table and leaving the mA conversion table alone. What this does better is allows for any RPM/Volume region to be pinpointed for better response from commanded to actual rail pressure without a global change that could effect drivability.

The amount of information I can cover on diesels these days blows my mind and I'll be revealing more of this soon."

Excited to see where this takes me career-wise, as I've really enjoyed doing engine calibration for years now on Rotary Engines and have a vast range of EFI expertise, but Diesels were a new/fun hurdle that I am glad to add to my toolbox.

Another side-note, the BorgWarner S258SX-R with a 0.83 A/R Turbine Housing will be one of the most capable towing turbos ever placed on these engines. Let me explain...

Attachment 157844

Considering most of run around 40psi of Boost, you'll be looking at PR 3.75 if you live at Sea Level.

Going through simple math for the compressor mapping, you'll see the following:

S258SX-R Surge Line at PR 3.75 is Starts us at 33lbs/min of Airflow and then carries out to 68% Efficiency (before we start pumping hot air --- note, the turbo will do significantly more than this here) at 67lbs/min. This gives us a powerband WIDTH of 34lbs/min and a total power capability of roughly 8lb/min per horsepower for a 5.9L Common Rail, or roughly 536hp worth of air before pumping out hot and inefficiently. By maxing the turbo out we will see 74lbs/min before reaching redline shaft speeds for the turbo, but we'll be able to produce 592hp. It's hard to put this into perspective, but you'd have better response than a Stock HE351CW, no surge of turbo, and power capabilities over 100whp over stock with a better drive ratio. This is the turbo you want if GRUNT is your game and you want to run a S368SX-R over it in a compound setup. The nastiest tow spec I could come up with and it's compact!

Modern turbos change the game up for everything.

Attachment 157906

The truck is almost perfect now.

Just adjusting my CP3 Fuel Volume vs. Engine Speed Duty Cycle 3D Table to optimize engine response and hit targets.

Off Idle there's as much as a 3000psi difference, so that's where I'll feel response the best at 10mm^3 and off of idle (those DC % Values will be increased next revision).
Really crispy at 1800 RPM and within 200psi (perfect/within tolerance).
Slight refinement needed at 2500 RPM breakpoint, but nothing more than a couple percent.
Fuel Pressure at CP3 is DROPPING by Redline by about 1500psi, so that will require higher Duty Cycle there as well.

I put together the new offset blend and we'll see what these estimated values end up with. Glad that at least the most driven region (1800 RPM) is dead to nuts dialed.

Getting rid of delay this way vs. mA Current Conversion Scalar should net me with better engine response and less likelihood to have any PID engaged or oscillation.

As a reminder to myself, I'll be logging mA Current Conversion values for next time to see where I'm at in terms of total flow.

Motorsports Diesel Stroker CP3 is on the way in the scenario I am actually out of fuel; but that would indicate almost 600hp worth of fuel flowing through the engine, which I don't think is the case. This is a BRAND NEW Cummins OEM Pump after all...

For this iteration, I dialed in fuel and timing for what I think will be needed for our ~14000lb 5th Wheel setup and then left a good bit of fueling overhead past 100mm^3 to get us out of trouble if anything wild arises. Not wild like heavy rollin' coal, but definitely noticeable, moderate smoke level in the scenario we need the extra power for emergency.

On this new engine, I don't think I'll ever forget the first drive ever going up Hwy 199 after leaving Brookings, and over Siskiyou Pass in Oregon and how we effectively had ZERO overhead for power, losing speed everywhere, sub-6mpg, etc. Stock Tune + New Engine + 50HP Injectors was NOT the business and we were anemic on power to say the least. Hot (1300F Sustained for a LONG time), smoky, and gutless.

The result of that however has given me depth of insight into calibrating these engines and has paid in dividends. Now I can rest assured knowing our truck will tow flawlessly and efficiently again without being a turd.

So here's the timing shape that I'm finding works best for aftermarket injectors with a higher pressure "pop" rate.

Attachment 157955
Attachment 157956

Same Main SOI table, just two different angles.

This isn't bad but it looks a little like a gas tuner learning to tune a diesel lol. There is room for improvement on the overall shape but not too bad! Do you have a dyno to play on? If so Play with the whole 140-100mm3 lower rpm ramping into the higher rpm,. Also high RPM low injection quantity, you can start raising it back up on the 3400-2800RPM rows starting at 40ish mm3 going all the way to 0mm3. It should look kinda V shaped, but you won't see a huge improvement as it's low fuel quantity, but it does help smooth up higher rpm tipout. Also depending on how you have your multipliers set, if you are setting all the timing maps or modes to the exact same values there is for sure a decent bit left in overall driveability when going through different elevations. Also, I saw a post of yours talking about pilot timing where you said if you advance your main 8* then you'd subtract the pilot 8. IDK if you still believe that or not... but that would be true "if" the pilot was set based off the main or what's known as interval timing. However the pilot is set based on TDC, therefore you'd actually advance pilot 8* instead of subtract it if you wanted to maintain the factory split... I also think but maybe wrong, that you believe the lower the EGT the better at all times. This is true for pure efficiency but it can start to lie to you as well. If you over advance injection you could have it try to turn the engine backwards "torque loss" and that simultaneously gives more time for the combustion heat to be absorbed onto the pistons, cylinder head, and cylinder walls. So your EGT probe would read lower... but your coolant temps would start getting higher... Lower EGT can also slow spool and thus the ability to make more torque sooner. You'll sacrifice some initial torque on tipin but make it up quickly, think of a linear line vs a exponential curve, linear wins at first but exponential wins a little later. Especially with modern turbos that once they start to light they boogie and that lets you add a lot of fuel very quickly! That is why I believe diesel tuning is, and will forever be very subjective, it's also why there isn't one diesel tuner who is the "best". Especially when it comes to decently modified trucks, if you are not spending time tuning them in person there is probably a decent bit left on the table...

This is GREAT insight. Would you be able to snag me some similar photos of what you mean in regards to what you've found to be ideal Main SOI Tuning?

While this isn't the "final" of where I've landed at, it's pretty darn good and this truck has impressed everyone locally with fuel economy, response, and drivability.

At the end of the day, it's setup to tow a pretty heavy 5th Wheel and the way it lights off the S364SX-R is great.

More on the table? Definitely, but I am aiming for safety and reliability for another 150k Miles before changing injectors or anything else again.

Dyno? I mean, there's probably a dozen of them within a 20 mile radius, but nothing the Dually would set well on, I don't think.

The angle was hard to tell, but I already had the shape you described for 2800 RPM to 3400 RPM at 0mm3 to 40mm3. Kinda, at least.

Attachment 158002

The front blending from 100-140mm3 I think you mean sort of like this. Makes a LOT of sense. Great observation.

Attachment 158003

The truck runs super clean and has been 1000x better than any of the "paid" tunes I've deal with. I think these injectors needed quite a bit more timing to handle the pop pressure, which I'll give feedback back to Lenny for his other tuners.

Definitely a Rotary Engine Tuner, so I'm used to weird, oddball, unique stuff like this and sorting out issues by vehicle feel; then working backwards.

Attachment 158015

My buddy Josh (who is world class in everything he touches) sent me something like this to work off of.

Definitely more of the exponential power vs. linear power style building that JaegerWrenching is talking about, but this doesn't quite have a spool region either.

I'll try this out as a "last shot" and see if I like it. I can always go back.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RGHTBrainDesign

Attachment 158015

My buddy Josh (who is world class in everything he touches) sent me something like this to work off of.

Definitely more of the exponential power vs. linear power style building that JaegerWrenching is talking about, but this doesn't quite have a spool region either.

I'll try this out as a "last shot" and see if I like it. I can always go back.

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This or Josh's shape looks good, and you can see the V on the high rpm rows, they start going back up around 30mm3. As for high mm3 low rpm or "spool area" you really need to play with it, each truck is a little different and likes different things. Also if your boost limiter is in play and you're ridding the limiter dial that in and see where you're actually operating timing wise. But your ramp in should be more exponential than linear like josh's map shows. If you look at pic#2 of yours to the left of your hill in should flatten out some, maybe even be slightly bowl shaped. This is why I asked if you had access to a dyno. It really helps make repeatable runs in dialing this in. The lazier the turbo the more timing it'll like pre spool to keep it responsive. But once the turbo starts to spool your in cylinder density increases quickly reducing the required timing as the flame front starts moving quicker. hence flattening of the timing. If you are higher in elevation it will want more as well, I typically see in the spool zone 0ft or sea level map will be 0-3* 5500ft will be at say 3-6* and my 10k will be at 6-8*. But it easier to tune all maps the same where you are at first to get your map shape and timing right, then adjust your altitude maps based off your current map and your elevation.

So after quite a bit of updates across the board, I landed on what I think is the ideal tune setup for my truck.

"Josh's" Curve that I adapted to work was pretty good, but the one that I produced earlier with a more rounded cruise section and linear timing curve in regards to fuel flow ends up driving better, having more response, and significantly better in tow regions.

Here is a detuned version of that tune for break-in:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzxXSATv3lc

What the truck is on now is enough to make me question the 650hp transmission build... It moves out with fury and haste. I didn't think roasting grippy Continental dually tires would be effortless like this.

The short of it is that I managed 26000psi and 200uS more vs. the detuned tow tune (in video), and it's incredible.

My last step now are tightening up the torque converter to stay locked more often (it can handle the torque).

Beyond impressed with this setup and the cleanliness of the tune/mapping/drivability.

Reworking some TCC settings in HPTuners and Transmission (fluid level) things tomorrow, but she's a baaaad girl!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IToc9GpqyPQ

Very inspired, thank you for your knowledge and detail. I?m learning a lot from all of you here.

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Originally Posted by DTMCreations

Very inspired, thank you for your knowledge and detail. I?m learning a lot from all of you here.

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If you have anything specific you want me to go over, you're welcome to email me at [email protected]

Fixed the shifting, limiter bounce, and bumped up fuel economy just a hair. I think we'll leave it there. Truck is beyond happy now.

Gentle Haze + Higher Commanded Transmission line pressures = really happy truck.

Happy Easter everyone!

Put together a new timing curve on a whim and it's brilliant now.

That was the last piece of the puzzle, I think.

Now it's time to reshape for altitude on each timing table (simple degree change per step or something along those lines), final pedal mapping, and confirm we aren't dropping rail pressure on top-end with the 100GPH FASS setup. We have to be close to the edge of that 600hp range from the feel of this thing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RGHTBrainDesign

Put together a new timing curve on a whim and it's brilliant now.

That was the last piece of the puzzle, I think.

Now it's time to reshape for altitude on each timing table (simple degree change per step or something along those lines), final pedal mapping, and confirm we aren't dropping rail pressure on top-end with the 100GPH FASS setup. We have to be close to the edge of that 600hp range from the feel of this thing.

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I watched your video and that turbo combination lights very well! The truck moves out! Modern turbo tech is game changing, especially borg EFR and Garrett G series stuff. I'm curious where it lands timing wise as it spools very quickly. I tend to start low and work my way up to not overshoot. But typically I have to increase timing as most customers have larger lazier turbos, which don't want to light as fast. But no two trucks are exactly the same either. They all like a little more or less depending on the injector setup and their response time /rate shape. It's why I like to use the same injectors for all the trucks I can. I would bet your truck makes 600 around 2200us on 50%, I have a customer with 64VGT, DDP 150s, 07 5.9 stock LB with a hurt cylinder #3 and it made 613whp @ 1900us. Probably more left on the table but he tows with it and his goal was 600.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JaegerWrenching

I watched your video and that turbo combination lights very well! The truck moves out! Modern turbo tech is game changing, especially borg EFR and Garrett G series stuff. I'm curious where it lands timing wise as it spools very quickly. I tend to start low and work my way up to not overshoot. But typically I have to increase timing as most customers have larger lazier turbos, which don't want to light as fast. But no two trucks are exactly the same either. They all like a little more or less depending on the injector setup and their response time /rate shape. It's why I like to use the same injectors for all the trucks I can. I would bet your truck makes 600 around 2200us on 50%, I have a customer with 64VGT, DDP 150s, 07 5.9 stock LB with a hurt cylinder #3 and it made 613whp @ 1900us. Probably more left on the table but he tows with it and his goal was 600.

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What's crazy is that this was that previous "gas tuner" mapping that I did prior to where the truck is now, and I have legitimately picked up at least 60HP over where that was with where I finalized things for towing. Your advice was rock solid about being more parabolic and exponential vs. linear. That really allowed me to get under the turbo even faster and allow for more fueling cleaner. It's disgustingly quick; even at 50% throttle now.

Not bad for little DDP 15% Injectors, huh?