Given GM have two spark timing tables and moves between the two based on knock sensor activity maintaining optimum timing.
Does anyone know how the ford timing accomodates this outcome which I assume it can.
Printable View
Given GM have two spark timing tables and moves between the two based on knock sensor activity maintaining optimum timing.
Does anyone know how the ford timing accomodates this outcome which I assume it can.
it only pulls timing if ping occurs but stays on the same spark table
Oh dear
?Quote:
Originally Posted by JETURBO
Don't worry about Jet mate, he does one word kryptic answers all the time that everyone scratches their head about.
From what I understand, their are 2 tables also, borderline knock table and Maximum brake Torque (MBT) table.. The computer picks the lower number between the two for a particular load vs RPM point (generally Bordeline Knock).. Then pulls timing if the knock sensor picks up anything
There are also numerous multipliers that can add and take away timing for a given ECT, IAT, Lambda, etc
Just for you princess ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by turbotrana
Peppy_t & turbotrana , thanks for the responses.
While some tuners make the borderline knock table and MBT table the same it would appear this is the wrong thing to do as the MBT table is used for torque calculations also. This leaves the borderline knock table only to modify and for some situations the borderline knock table will be the lowest table when timing is optimally adjusted for 98 and when 95 is then used it is solely dependent on the knock retard from knock sensor activity to control the knock this doesn’t seem correct.
Ive never seen BLK and MBT the same, what tuners do this ?
Do u have an understanding why the MBT is there ?
The ford timing selection is actually quite decent and when u start mapping a timing table there are key areas u need to leave room in, exactly like ford have done, why do u think you can clean up a timing table and pick up a bunch of hp but in actual fact uve destroyed a best "worst" case senario
Have a think why....
Jet, go easy not everyone is as good as you are!
I know when I was looking at other Ford tuners (not the reputable 1's) but still 90% of them & are pretty sure when I did the VCM course 3 years ago they even said you CAN siamese the table to make sure you get what your aiming for!
SO I think maybe try & lead people in the right direction rather than shooting them down, I know your trying to do that but be a bit more understanding.
The MBT table should be left alone unless there have been modifications that would have actually changed the MBT. Other than raising the MBT table up for higher load values, I seldom touch it.
Copying the MBT table to the borderline spark table is fine, if you are wanting to run the MBT value, which on a stock car, if you have enough octane to know run into knock, then it will make the best power.
In many ways it appeared the way ford managed the application of fuel and timing was superior to GM which from the comments this may not be the case given what appears to be limited ignition learning control.
I guess it will become clearer when the scan tool is upgraded and we are able to accurately determine the knock threshold compared to the applied standard timing under actual track/road conditions.
I have downloaded multiple tunes from this forum that have the BLK copied over the MBT. I've always been curious as to why because 50* at idle seems like a very bad idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by JETURBO
Also, does anyone know the conditions that the MBT is configured under(@ford) as mixtures will change the timing requirement? I imagine it's configured with "unlimited" octane as it is theoretical MBT.
there is a table which changes spark based on AFR
Borderline Knock Spark = borderline knock + (IAT Spark Base * Mult) + (ECT Spark Base * Mult) + Lambda Spark Base + (Actual Cam Angle * Variable Cam Spark Base).
MBT is pretty much the same. You can work it out from what is defined in HPT.
There is some modifiers for IMRC, combustion noise, EGR etc but these aren't significant in the turbo's.
The BKT and MBT calc's are run...the lower of the two is referenced and then there is an additional retard for knock sensor activity.
However the ford system has many Spark Sources. Idle feedback, deceleration etc etc...there's about 18 in total iirc.
All the source stuff will be great for the scanner
(sung to the tune of "you don't win friends with salad")
You gotta log with an X-Cal, You gotta log with an X-cal (etc etc etc)
Iam sick of saying it
Also grant i started at the bottom of the pond and do not think iam by far anything special but when it comes to reading data and again "JUST READING" i can do that and then make an educated guess to change parts of a calibration and the actually check it ( <- see this part ) to make sure its done what i asked
Ive had to ask lots of questions along the way, the difference is i try to make a statement with what i suspect is happening supported by what ive logged and then what i was expecting to see
Asking flat out questions with zero thought put into it shows the asker has done sfa thinking and giving an answer will actually be more harmful than good imho
You can blame people like me for Jet's attitude. When he was starting out and seeking info I would answer his questions with questions tailored to lead him to what he needed to learn.
He takes the same approach, but unfortunately as he's from Souf Australia it's now quite as polished as us So-fist-a-cated West Aussies
Hi Eric,Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric@HPTuners
Is there a chance there is a multiplier table missing from my strategy still? I went over some of logs, and right of a pull the car was adding 1 extra degree of timing from what I had commanded in my BLK table, I had disabled every multiplier table I could find where it advances timing, both the main correction and multiplier table. Just out of curiousity I copied and pasted the last 3 load lines from my BLK table over to MBT, carried out a pull under same conditions, and the timing curve was as per my commanded BLK values. Am i missing something?
There are modifiers to the MBT table....being e85 you would be close to the modified MBT values. Check the spark source.
On the upper load lines the MBT still has a minimum of 5 degrees more around peak VE and about 7 degrees more uptop, not as close i would have thought might be an issue, but i guess it depends on how much a mystery table can affect the calculation, cheers for the feedback on the spark source, will see if i can borrow an xcal lol
Agghhh yeah no chance then!!! Don't bother!Quote:
Originally Posted by 45T-XR
Definitely a little odd.
B series loves to ref both tables almost like ls series but i found if your running closer to minimum temps it can get closer to the MBT timing points ( or combination )
When were on the dyno we have the car well out of any range that the MBT could be referenced so the BLK does as desired but you are correct in saying the MBT can play around with "actual" timing
This is one reason why logging of what u want to see after you make a change is vital because it does not always do what you told it, and could very well be an adder or timing configuration missing !
So is it "safer" to lower the MBT table values?Quote:
Originally Posted by JETURBO
Think about why there there first and if u know better than ford's thousand hr tune strategy vs our few hr tweaks ....
"Why don't we have both" ?
You can, but logging and making sure you account for a multitude of situations and hit the nail on all or as little compromise
Possible, its quite amazing what you can do with what ford already put into each strategy, they actually have a brilliant ecu,control,strategy ........ More thinking why needs to happen !!
Determining accurate timing delivery is currently impossible with VCM suite until at least "Knock Logging can be achieved" the other option is SCT and they tell me knock logging should be ignored as the calibration of the knock logging software is incorrect.
This leaves aftermarket knock detection this I assume is beter than nothing but may or may not be accurate and referencing it to load and rpm is another issue.
All this information is in the ALDL data stream and once the new scanner software becomes available if it is comparable to the GM stuff all these questions can be answered.
You use a combination of all tools available and you WILL get correct knock threshold every time !!
Go and buy an aftermarket knock tool
Go and buy a x3
Set it all up and start logging on the dyno, it becomes apparent quickly whats what, even the dyno graph will throw up hints along the way but it all starts with having correct tooling to do the job !!
Hand in pocket time if your serious about calibrating