6R80 3-4 Shift Flare

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03-08-2018
Spooled

3 Attachment(s)

6R80 3-4 Shift Flare

Hello all. Looking for some feedback and some direction on how to improve my 3-4 shift. The vehicle was previously on 6lbs of boost and all shifts were great. Since bumping it up to 10, I'm getting a flare on the 3-4 shift and haven't been able to figure it out. I'm going to attach a couple of logs and a screen shot of a couple of tables. I've tried searching on here for some info, but haven't really found what I need. If anyone could lend some advice and some insight it would greatly appreciated. Thanks for reading

Attachment 77508
03-08-2018
gilgamesh

1 Attachment(s)

I'm no expert by any stretch of the definition. But I was looking at your log and it sort of looks to me like the offgoing pressure for element B could be dragged out a little longer. I'm very interested in this topic. I hope someone with more experience chimes in.

You may find this post to be very relevant to your problem.
https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...-Ecoboost-6R80

I zoomed in and took a screenshot of your 3-4 shift for comparison.

Attachment 77515
03-09-2018
veeefour

post a tune
03-09-2018
Spooled

Quote:

Originally Posted by gilgamesh

I'm no expert by any stretch of the definition. But I was looking at your log and it sort of looks to me like the offgoing pressure for element B could be dragged out a little longer. I'm very interested in this topic. I hope someone with more experience chimes in.

You may find this post to be very relevant to your problem.
https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...-Ecoboost-6R80

I zoomed in and took a screenshot of your 3-4 shift for comparison.

Attachment 77515

Thanks for this. I far from being an expert on this stuff. This trans stuff is complicated. I have referenced that thread you posted and tried to get an idea. I wasn't sure which element to adjust. Hell, I don't even know how you were able to get that graph from my log... I've been trying to figure out how to do that. Do the lines for the shift solenoids appear when you zoom in?
03-09-2018
CKrueg

Looking at that log it looks like the boost pressure is applied to the oncoming clutch? i thought it was to the offgoing clutch?
03-09-2018
gilgamesh

1 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by CKrueg

Looking at that log it looks like the boost pressure is applied to the oncoming clutch? i thought it was to the offgoing clutch?

I thought I had read that boost pressure was applied to offgoing clutch as well.

Spooled: Here's a post that describes the clutch sequence. This should help you with identifying which clutches are offgoing and oncoming for each gear change.
https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...l=1#post470905

Here's a link to the online help that shows the chart setup. https://www.hptuners.com/help/vcm_sc...lays_chart.htm It looks pretty out of date and lacking how you actually configure a group and series. Basically, you right click on the chart, go to 'charts layout', then create/modify the groups and series you want to display. You just need to create a group you want the parameters displayed in, add the parameters (aka series) you want in the chart, specify a min/max value and choose a line color. The toolbar along the top allow you to add/remove groups and series.

Attachment 77547
03-09-2018
Spooled

AWESOME AWESOME info. Thanks. Gonna mess with it tonight and try to get that 3-4 shift better.
03-10-2018
Spooled

2 Attachment(s)

Alright I've tried to modify a couple things, but the shift doesn't look any different in the logs. Which table controls offgoing pressure/time for Clutch B?? I've tried messing with Element B boost time and the logs didn't look any different. What if I shortened the boost time for D clutch? Would that help as well?
03-10-2018
gilgamesh

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spooled

Alright I've tried to modify a couple things, but the shift doesn't look any different in the logs. Which table controls offgoing pressure/time for Clutch B?? I've tried messing with Element B boost time and the logs didn't look any different. What if I shortened the boost time for D clutch? Would that help as well?

Oncoming and offgoing pressure's are in the 'Auto Shift Properties' - 'Shift Pressures' tab. I'd probably try shortening the boost time for D at least to see how/if it affects the shift.
03-10-2018
gilgamesh

1 Attachment(s)

I was just looking at your log again and I think I might actually see the boost pressure now in a way that fits Murfie's description of it being for holding the offgoing clutch. What do you think? Attachment 77577
03-10-2018
Spooled

Interesting. So increasing boost time could make that window longer that you have highlighted?

I made changes to Boost time for D already. Going to try that here shortly.
03-10-2018
Spooled

I've made about 10 changes over the last hour and can't get the shift to look any different on the log. Gonna take a break and try again later with a fresh mind.
03-10-2018
CKrueg

Yeah that could be. Then the boost pressure would be the pressure at which it holds, not actually an amount that it is incrrased.
03-12-2018
Lidio Iacobelli

Spooled,

How many miles are on this car?

I'm starting to see some of the 2011+ coyote 6r80 cars come across now days with worn out 3rd gear clutch packs (element "B"). Causing a 3-4 flare, poor 2-3 upshifts, and weird down shifts that either end up in 3rd as the final commanded gear to downshift into, or touch/sequence into 3rd on they're way down to 2nd from 4th, 5th, or 6th.

I'm starting to see Power-Adder 5.0L (6r80) cars that have had very poor trans tuning (other shops or other tuners) or no trans tuning at all for the increase in power (boost, NOS), that eventually end up hurting the trans, with the 3rd clutch being the first to go most of the time. A lot of guys just wing-it and think "adaptive" will take care of it all !!

Hopefully its not mechanical and you'll catch it in the tuning. But I thought I'd suggest that as tuff as the 6r80 has turned out to be... they don't last long with out proper tuning and some TQ reduction still in there when well above stock power levels.
03-12-2018
Spooled

I have 16,000 miles on it. It's been around 600hp for about 13,000 of those miles. Just recently turned the boost up after installing a return style fuel system.

I'm really hoping the clutch pack isn't worn out yet, but I'm ready to put clutches in it if necessary.
03-12-2018
CKrueg

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spooled

I've made about 10 changes over the last hour and can't get the shift to look any different on the log. Gonna take a break and try again later with a fresh mind.

What did you change exactly?
03-12-2018
Spooled

I've messed with boost time (element B and D), boost pressure (Element B and D), Ramp Rate 3-4, Clutch Fill Time 3-4, Upshift pressure for offgoing and oncoming 3-4. I started messing with one table at a time then I tried boost time and pressure together and a couple of others. I was able to make it worse, but not better on several attempts.
03-12-2018
gilgamesh

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spooled

I've messed with boost time (element B and D), boost pressure (Element B and D), Ramp Rate 3-4, Clutch Fill Time 3-4, Upshift pressure for offgoing and oncoming 3-4. I started messing with one table at a time then I tried boost time and pressure together and a couple of others. I was able to make it worse, but not better on several attempts.

Would it make any sense that it might need need more oncoming and offgoing pressure due to the added power?
03-12-2018
Spooled

3 Attachment(s)

3-4 shift screen shots from 3 vastly different tunes. The last one (7) actually felt the best but still flared.Attachment 77639 Attachment 77640 Attachment 77641
03-12-2018
gilgamesh

it's a little hard to tell without seeing the actual values but it looks like in the last image the offgoing crossed the oncoming at a higher oncoming pressure than the other 2 images.
03-13-2018
Spooled

Yeah. I'm not sure exactly what I changed on that one.. I'll have to go back through my notes. I think I upped offgoing and oncoming pressure some more. Like a lot. Not exactly sure how far you can safely up the values though...
03-13-2018
CKrueg

I think you can increase them as much as you want, until it starts to slam into gear, or the solenoids can't increase pressure anymore. I agree, looks like they crossed at a higher pressure. Not sure if you've tried it but I would increase boost pressure and time. For the Off going element
03-13-2018
gilgamesh

I think there's a general pressure limit you might end up needing to increase as well. I've seen some people up that from 150PSI to 250PSI.
03-13-2018
Spooled

1 Attachment(s)

This one was a little better yet. Upped the Boost pressure on Element D some more. It flared a little bit still, but finally making some progess. Attachment 77669

Now, I have a question. Does anyone the know the relationship between Clutch fill time and oncoming/offgoing pressure? Say the shift is demanded and your clutch fill time is .500. Does the trans shift after .500 goes by regardless of if the desired oncoming/offgoing pressure is met? I guess I'm thinking in my head the clutch can only fill so fast. If you let it fill all the way and meet desired pressure the shift should be better correct? Or am I thinking it wrong?
03-13-2018
gilgamesh

I think you are thinking correctly. From what was described here it sounds like some slip will happen if the clutch is not allowed enough time to fill.
https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...l=1#post454845
03-14-2018
CKrueg

The way I understand it, clutch fill time is the time before the oncoming clutch begins to ramp up. So if it is too short, the oncoming will apply to before the Off going is released. If its too long, the oncoming will ramp up slowly/later causing a soft shift.
03-14-2018
gilgamesh

1 Attachment(s)

That makes good sense CKrueg.

I found this image and thought it might be helpful for referencing the clutch sequence. It's not ford specific and doesn't contain boost but it sure looks familiar from looking at our logs.
Attachment 77675
03-15-2018
murfie

You need to log engine brake torque, so that you can make sure you are making changes in the correct spots. With things like TQ source trans shift mod happening you might be applying changes at the 410ftlb when really it is using the 110ftlb line. Input shaft and output shaft speeds are good. Line pressure is good as well, it gives you an idea of the pressure the clutches are seeing.
Your shift solenoid pressures are not the pressures the clutches are seeing. They only control latches and regulator valve positions. Those control the pressure to the clutches. So you will not see oncoming, offgoing, boost pressures in the log for each clutch.
If you pick up a 6r80 service manual you can see how the solenoids control the latches and regulators and control pressures. Its a lot to study and quite complicated, but needed.

Clutch fill time is the time it takes to fill the off going clutch circuit with low pressure once the high regulated pressure is removed. If this is too short the clutch is not fully disengaged and you can get RPM drag when the ramp on the oncoming clutch happens.

In your case B is off going and E is on coming for a 3>4 shift. solenoid D controls pressure to clutch E when solenoid E turns on. Solenoid E is just and on/off and positions the latch and regulator that D is controlling, whether it is low/reverse or 4,5,6. It would be nice to log just to make sure its not lagging behind, but you might need support to add it to your scanner.
03-15-2018
CKrueg

Quote:

Originally Posted by murfie

You need to log engine brake torque, so that you can make sure you are making changes in the correct spots. With things like TQ source trans shift mod happening you might be applying changes at the 410ftlb when really it is using the 110ftlb line. Input shaft and output shaft speeds are good. Line pressure is good as well, it gives you an idea of the pressure the clutches are seeing.
Your shift solenoid pressures are not the pressures the clutches are seeing. They only control latches and regulator valve positions. Those control the pressure to the clutches. So you will not see oncoming, offgoing, boost pressures in the log for each clutch.
If you pick up a 6r80 service manual you can see how the solenoids control the latches and regulators and control pressures. Its a lot to study and quite complicated, but needed.

Clutch fill time is the time it takes to fill the off going clutch circuit with low pressure once the high regulated pressure is removed. If this is too short the clutch is not fully disengaged and you can get RPM drag when the ramp on the oncoming clutch happens.

In your case B is off going and E is on coming for a 3>4 shift. solenoid D controls pressure to clutch E when solenoid E turns on. Solenoid E is just and on/off and positions the latch and regulator that D is controlling, whether it is low/reverse or 4,5,6. It would be nice to log just to make sure its not lagging behind, but you might need support to add it to your scanner.

So does that mean that when the pressure for solenoid D starts increasing in the log above, that is essentially sending the line pressure to clutch E? and when the pressure of solenoid B is reduced it is taking the high pressure fluid off of clutch B?
03-16-2018
Spooled

1 Attachment(s)

I added engine brake torque to the log. Here is a screen shot

Murf - it doesn't look like I can currently log clutch E currently.
03-16-2018
gilgamesh

Send a support ticket - maybe they'll include it someday. I've been waiting a year for the 6.7 PIDs to be even close to what you've got available.
03-16-2018
Spooled

Should the oncoming clutch be ramping up before the offgoing starts releasing? I feel like this is also part of the problem, but I haven't been able to change anything to make this any better

If there are any experienced 6R80 tuners lurking in here, I will pay you to take a look at my tune and get these shifts better. They are killing my acceleration and performance. Just shoot me a PM and we can work something out.
03-16-2018
murfie

Quote:

Originally Posted by CKrueg

So does that mean that when the pressure for solenoid D starts increasing in the log above, that is essentially sending the line pressure to clutch E? and when the pressure of solenoid B is reduced it is taking the high pressure fluid off of clutch B?

Yes. service manual is a must have to understand any of it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spooled

Should the oncoming clutch be ramping up before the offgoing starts releasing? I feel like this is also part of the problem, but I haven't been able to change anything to make this any better

That is normal. All gear shifts from 1st to 6th or from 6th to 1st are power-on overlapping shifts. That is, during the shift, one of the clutches must continue to transmit the drive at lower main pressure until the other clutch is able to accept the input torque.

No need to scan for solenoid E. Don't bother support. Its only an on/off, and 4th and above it is on, 3rd and below it is off.
04-04-2018
Kcc0521

I think I am having the same issue with one of the larger names tuners out there using SCT. I bought HP tuners and I plan to try it myself. I added 2lbs of boost to my car and the rpm ramp appears to show some slip and it is not tire slip. My tuner said he thinks it is the clutches but I am not so sure. What should I log to help diagnose it?
04-14-2018
veeefour

2 Attachment(s)

I had the same problem but for 2-3 and 4-5 (B clutch Oncoming) - was able to solve it. I can now force the trans to RPM flare at any gear, 2-3, 3-4 doesn't matter.

Asked OP to post a tune before but tunes are secret as we know ;) You can also PM me your tune - problem is in ramp rates.

And BTW I believe they are named incorrectly in HPT. Oncoming should be named 2M-3M, 3M-4M not 3M-2M, 4M-3M - or they are swapped?

Anyways, you have to match the ramp rates for oncoming and offgoing - the RPM flare is when one clutch is engaging too fast at the other is disengaging too slow.
Or the other way around. RPM flare can happen either during up or down shift. You have to ramp the off-going clutch slower compared to on-coming.

Hope it makes sense.
06-07-2018
Spooled

Quote:

Originally Posted by veeefour

I had the same problem but for 2-3 and 4-5 (B clutch Oncoming) - was able to solve it. I can now force the trans to RPM flare at any gear, 2-3, 3-4 doesn't matter.

Asked OP to post a tune before but tunes are secret as we know ;) You can also PM me your tune - problem is in ramp rates.

And BTW I believe they are named incorrectly in HPT. Oncoming should be named 2M-3M, 3M-4M not 3M-2M, 4M-3M - or they are swapped?

Anyways, you have to match the ramp rates for oncoming and offgoing - the RPM flare is when one clutch is engaging too fast at the other is disengaging too slow.
Or the other way around. RPM flare can happen either during up or down shift. You have to ramp the off-going clutch slower compared to on-coming.

Hope it makes sense.

I'll PM you the tune when I get my truck back up and running. I've been away for work and had a fuel system issue arise and had to turn the boost down. Changing up the fuel system this weekend hopefully.