Please make it an option to adjust zone boundaries WITHIN the VVE tool. Absolutely sucks having to go back and forth trying to make boundaries match.
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Please make it an option to adjust zone boundaries WITHIN the VVE tool. Absolutely sucks having to go back and forth trying to make boundaries match.
Bump :pray:
About this subject, would you care to explain the utility of matching the zone boundaries? I've heard a little bit about it, but I don't have a real understanding of it. I've been learning about VVE tuning.
i usually find that the more even each boundary is throughout the whole table once u calculate the coefficients it will stay more as u have adjusted it, or sometimes just shifting a boundary a step over can help too just to see what works out best for the given table range
There are times were the OEM boundaries will not calculate a smooth VE table.Quote:
I think I get it. I looked at the RPM boundaries and the MAP boundaries and there were ones in between the scale values on the VVE. I went in and adjusted the boundaries to the nearest value on the VVE. It seemed to stay smoother when I calculated the coefficients.
This is how I basically work around it.Quote:
Originally Posted by 07GTS
Maybe just some simple lines in the graph/table that highlight the boundaries would be very helpful.
Yes and with number designations of the zones. Would help SO much. Of course if we had a patch or extension of the tool to just edit the different cam positions would help a lot with that too... In fact I would really prefer both ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by TriPinTaZ
Quote:
Originally Posted by TriPinTaZ
Yeah I agree. I got so upset I wrote my own utility to help with this. Paste in your histogram from the scanner against the current VVE table, then as you update/calc coefficients in the real VVE table in HPT, you paste the updated results back in and it re-calcs the % so you can see how close you are getting. I usually do it one zone at a time and you can see the zone boundaries. Here is a screen shot.Quote:
Originally Posted by GHuggins
Attachment 129636
I assume this allows you to put whatever is in the tables for map and rpm into it and it'll show you the changed zones? Problem is the genV's. They've changed the number of zones and the placement is different as best I can tell from the previous ones. I really would like a coefficient calculator for the different cam positions. PITA having to play with the cam settings to get trims back right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cringer
It will work with a Gen 5 setup. To define the zones you just go into HPT VVE editor and show zones. Then copy with axis and paste that into my utility. My code then just parses through the data (it does not matter how many rows or columns you have). I never tested with Gen 5 stuff, but I just downloaded a file and it works. The only problem is the column labels. Gen 4 is in KPA with one decimal so my code formats for this. When I paste a Gen 5 data in there you can see the row labels just show to one decimal place, not three (see pic below). In the end it wouldn't matter if the decimals are truncated anyway...they are just kinda nice to have when looking at the tables.Quote:
Originally Posted by GHuggins
Not sure about the cam angles as that is not anything I have had to worry about on my LS3. I assume you just have to re-do the VVE table for each cam angle? Then the ECM interpolates the VVE number based on the current angle?
Right now I am want to make an interactive graphical view, so you can manipulate the raw coefficients and see how that changes the 3D graph. What I really want to figure out is the code/algorithm that is executes to reverse engineer the 3D graph into each coefficient! That is what is escaping me at the moment.
Attachment 129643
So you come here with pictures of your cool new tool and then just run without letting us play with it? Not cool tool man, not cool. :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cringer
As long as I've been doing this and I didn't know you could do that :banghead:
Shows just how stupid I am....... OR unobservant?
Any chance you could make a calculator to manipulate these coefficients? Such as having the different cam positions that you could add fuel corrections into and it spit out the new coefficients? I would pay for that...
Attachment 129645
where to download vve assistantQuote:
Originally Posted by Cringer
I can tell you with just what I've done with them, I've been multiplying the RPM Intake Cam and Intake Cam tables counter to one another just to get things close. Such as multiplying the Intake Cam by 1.05 and the RPM Intake Cam by .95 to make a 5% reduction and that depends on which of those two tables has the positive numbers vs the negative. I never could find the patent info for the formula's or figure out how they were using the tables together to make the changes. Probably something simple I was overlooking such as it using a different number somewhere. Really need the formula I guess...Quote:
Originally Posted by GHuggins
When you use the VVE editor and change the cam timing in the window the graph will change. If you edit it, it will update those coefficients.Quote:
Originally Posted by GHuggins
Since when? Doesn't in mine. You change cam positions and it won't allow editing of the different positions. You have to edit the coefficients and then go back to the editor to see what changes it made for the different cam positions. I'm not talking about editing the 0 table. I'm talking about editing for cam movement...Quote:
Originally Posted by Alvin
I also have to run an older version of the editor, so if it was added in a newer beta. 5.430ish is my version.
Can anyone with a newer editor version confirm this for me please?
OK for those that are interested in getting your hands on my tool...I have created a quick walk through on usage and the link to download it is in the video description. Let me know if you have any issues.
https://youtu.be/aEXiVEL_k7s
OK, haven't finished the video yet, but just the fact that it shows you what your fuel trims should be after you've calculated coefficients - in essence removing the guess work and allows you to average multiple graphs together is nice.
Is there a limit to how many logs you can merge into the editor?
Then I need the same for cam movement :D Unless someone confirms a newer version has this feature? Even then...
No limit to the merging. If you find one...I guess let me know!Quote:
Originally Posted by GHuggins
Since I have not worked with the variable cams I am not really keen on what exactly you need. If you want to PM me or walk me through it over the phone I can see if it would be feasible to code.
Final Edit: to those in the future, here is the formula...Quote:
Originally Posted by GHuggins
So to use the coefficients from the tables in the .HPT file and the current sensor readings (for RPM and MAP), you can calculate the airmass as shown in the VVE table. I am 110% certain this is the correct formula:
Then to factor in the intake cam:Quote:
VVE Airmass = (ConstCoeff) + (MAPCoeff * MAP) + (MAP2Coeff * MAP^2) + (RPMCoeff * RPM) + (RPM2Coeff * RPM^2) + (MAPRPMCoeff * MAP * RPM)
Then to get the final airmass, you just add the two:Quote:
Intake Cam Airmass = (MAP.IntakeCam Coeff * MAP * Cam Degrees) + (RPM.IntakeCam Coeff * RPM * Cam Degrees) + (IntakeCam Coeff * Cam Degrees) + (IntakeCam2 Coeff * Cam Degrees * Cam Degrees)
Quote:
Final Airmass = VVE Airmass + Intake Cam Airmass
When I change the cam angle on my Gen 4 HPT file, the VVE values do NOT change.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alvin
On a Gen 5 file, the VVE values change on screen as I bump up the cam angle.
EDIT: Nevermind...all my cam tables were zero'd out in my Gen 4 file...after putting dummy values in there they change when I change the cam angle.
They change, but don't allow editing to change the coefficients... New formula's work ;)
Wish the pups didn't chew up my other laptops charger cord and it didn't require me driving 2hrs to get another one so I could just update hpt on it and see if it works in the newer betas. It requires some stupid unique charger plug that stores don't have around here.
Got a feeling of good things to come...
If you need to generate VVE equations with cam angle I switch to bluecat's software. Although I'm fairly certain it at least used to work in HPTuners.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alvin
I have the cam stuff figured out and half way there on creating the new version to use the cam angle coefficients.
^^^^ software looking good too ;)
Updated the tool to fix the glitches in the initial release. Now has a Professional Mode. Just added a 3D graph, but I will be adding the 3D option to the other screens as well. This will take sometime, but for now...its cool man. Thanks to GHuggins...if it wasn't for him this would still be dormant on my hard drive!
https://youtu.be/1VayD9zaUXo
Not thanks to me. You the man working the magic. I'm just the one playing with it and giving suggestions for changes and maybe providing other software when need be to help out. Nevertheless you're the one doing the work. She's made leaps and bounds from the original release and knowing what's planned, I know more good things are coming ;) I really like how you can make changes to the coefficients and see the direct corrections to the table and know roughly what the end result for fuel corrections will be. I just help show the glitches with compatibility issues on my old computer - haha...
For anyone who will be using it, just a couple of recommendations - watch the first youtube video - in fact following videos should probably have a link to the original. You have to load a histogram in as it's currently giving missing line errors - getting fixed by Cringer and then some other changes will be made in coming time - that's all I'll comment on that. This thing is fantastic - I REALLY mean that. Takes some getting use to, but only minor. I really like where you can edit and calculate the coefficients in hpt then swap back to the tool, plug in the new table and see how far off projected fueling will be from there - you can then hand edit, smooth, paste special - whatever back in hpt then check the changes. That alone is Extremely Nice without having to test in the vehicle!!! Cam editing and even general editing has more great things to come. Works pretty well flawlessly with hpt. I really like it ;) Does currently require a lot of copying and pasting of tables - hopefully able to be addressed at a later date. It's worth using in every regard.
So this is strictly GEN 4 and 5 right? Going to have to check out the video and wear out the pause button. :)
Yes and no, the VE table in the 3d graph video for the pro feature addition is a gen5 that I'm working on. I do recommend watching both videos. Some of the tables and edits have been moved to better suite older computers like mine so you might have to look for some minor things in the newer version under header tabs - I personally like this better either way. Make sure to copy everything out of hpt as copy with axis - the entire tables. Other than that I think everyone will like it. I know I do. It's also got some better things coming, but will be down the road a little bit. Cringer know's his stuff on this ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMechanic
The tool functions themselves work with ALL the different Gens whether it be 3,4 or 5 - just confirmed works the same with gen 3 as the rest. Only downside is currently the 3D graphing is only available with the coefficients. A 3d view tab as I understand it is in the works for the main VE and "corrected" VE tables too and will take care of that. But it will allow you to average multiple logs together and plug the changed VE table from the editor back into it to see what fueling theoretically should be after the corrections even with the gen 3's.
Be nice to have a few examples to follow along with. Don't know why I'm having difficulty wraping my head around this software and it's use.
It's a lot like Bluecats original tool only a lot more possibilities and a whole lot better in every way. Still has some glitches and Cringer might be hunting me down to shoot me for what I recently asked for, but other than that I highly recommend watching this one for the basics. As long as you put a histo from a scanner file into it, it'll show you a lot of it's abilities.
https://youtu.be/aEXiVEL_k7s
You do have to manually clear the cache file right now and that requires closing and reopening the tool after clearing. If you're working with the same file you just have to delete the histo addresses.
Use this link to get the current 3d graphing and exec file - make a new file and store both of these downloads into that one file.
https://youtu.be/1VayD9zaUXo
Hopefully this will help illustrate where this is headed and how "diverse" it is. Cringer's pretty busy, so hopefully this won't disappoint. I do know he's in the process of doing a better "how to use" write up on it.
What's the one thing that we constantly go around in circles with? We make corrections then have to reload the tune and then wait to see what hand smoothing or applying the changes may have done right? This "tool" cuts A LOT of that guessing game out of the equation. I honestly don't think Cringer may realize what he created!!!
I'm going to try to walk through the important basics of operation to help where I can and at the same time drop a "hint" if you will to just what all you can essentially use it for. The "tool" originated as a VE tool and is still primarily set up for that, but....
To begin with - as previously stated - you have to download the latest EXEC file and DLL file. Save both of these in their own private folder.
After that double click on the EXEC file - should open up to this -
Attachment 129957
At this point, just to illustrate it's intended purpose we'll walk through the basics
Next - Open your HPT file - Go to EDIT - VVE table - click show zones - click to highlight - copy with axis - attach to clipboard in the tool window - save(window will close at this point) - should look something like below
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After this change the hpt editor back to it's regular table view
Highlight - copy with axis - attach to clipboard in the tool in both the "old" and the "new" table sections.
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After this - open your log file and pull up your VE correction data - Paste from clipboard into the histo - it should now also exist in the paste special table. Here is where this tool is going to start showing some of it's benefits - if you have multiple logs - average them together
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Then for the big benefit and this is illustrated to make it pretty obvious - paste your log back into hpt's table, smooth and work the table how you see fit and then to see "the expected" fuel changes - AGAIN copy with axis your new VE table back into the tool via the UPDATE VVE NEW tab - this will now show you what you just changed your "theoretical" fueling to ;) At this point you can keep manipulating the VE table until you're both happy with how it looks and with the fueling error you should get after the fact......
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4 of your attachments on post 35 are showing invalid and all of your attachments on post 36 are showing invalid
Yeah, this is something that I don't feel like I really didn't explain too well on the initial video....GHuggins hit on this in his posts, but I will elaborate. And this something I am going to expand upon in the future with longer video once I feel like the tool has been revised a bit more.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMechanic
The normal tuning process goes like this...
1) Drive around and collect logs
2) Copy paste special to VVE
3) Click Calculate Coefficients
4) *Who knows what just happened! Did it get worse, better, by a lot, by a little?*
5) Drive around and find out...
6) Repeat...
7) Repeat...
8) Repeat...
9) Still repeating...
10) You made it worse...
11) Keep going...
Forget that!
1) The basis of my tool is that, (a) you know your starting point with the VVE and (b) you know how far off you are from where you need to be* (based on the scanner log fuel trims).
2) So after you calculate coefficients you should be able to know if the VVE curve got worse, better and by a lot or by a little bit.
The basic workflow is that you keep iterating with copy/paste special (from my tool) to HPT (just to calculate coefficients) and copy/paste back into my tool (which will then compare it back to the original VVE + fuel trims).
My tool also makes is easier to (a) see each zone (back to the OP) and (b) edit each zone to perfection.
The original VVE tools from back in the day did something that HPT did not — being able to back calculate the coefficients from the final VVE number. Bluecat figured that out and HPT bought it and incorporated it. However, what no other VVE tool does is incorporate the histograms into a VVE tool. Up to this point the scanner and editor exist in to different worlds and there is no synergy between them.
As of now I have not gotten to the point of back calculating the Coefficients from the final VVE numbers. But that is coming.
Additionally, what nobody (including HPT) has done is incorporate a real time cam angle + coefficient editing capability (and certainly not one that incorporates the scanner histrogram log)...and this is where everyone should thank GHuggins, because without him I would never have gone down this path! This is what I am currently working on the "Professional Mode" module now. The math is done, just working on better graphical workflow and representation.
Essentially I am blending the editor and scanner into one to be able to tune VVE. My end goal, once I am able to back calculate the coefficients from the VVE airmass, is to make it self tuning. Meaning, the tool will copy and paste special back into itself, calculate the coefficients, and then repeat over and over until the margin of error is negligible. (In theory) this will make tuning VVE as quick and easy as MAF tuning.
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*And I have applied the same thinking to tuning the MAF. I need to make a video on this as well, but I have been tied up writing code for this tool. You can do my MAF process with just math formulas in the scanner and it gets the MAF perfect in one drive (at least from my experience, and you don't need a custom program to do it). I tried the traditional MAF tuning as wel as the Smokeshow MAF+VVE at the same time (which was good, but not great IMHO). I am a perfectionist though...I don't like "close enough" and I realize that not everyone is like me.
I'll fix the attachments - stinking website isn't playing nice.
For the Pro Feature - You'll need to go back to the editor - copy with axis all of your Coefficient Tables - paste into the tool - Go to interactive and then you can manually manipulate the coefficients per zone to "better target" your end goal fueling with the cam changes.
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To Reset the tool - File - Delete Working Cache / You can Now also make folders and Save Particular vehicles in their own Designated Folders - Great if working on multiple vehicles or using the tool for unintended purposes like shown below :)
Now for another benefit - This isn't just able to work with VE tables - Basically if it's correctable you can plug it in. YOU MUST DELETE the Zones out of the folders for it to work otherwise just work around the error messages - NO Biggie
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