NAG1/A580 Part Throttle Shift Scheduling Table Tuning

Hi all,

I have a Sprintex supercharged 2013 Jeep Wrangler with the NAG1 trans in which I'm wanting to tune the part throttle shifting on.
From the PT tables the shifts are scheduled by the Accelerator Pedal Position vs Output Shaft Speed.
In these tables what is the actual PID used for the Accelerator Pedal Position?

I have data logged the following to try and determine the shifting behavior:

Throttle & Accel PID's:
Accelerator Pedal Position Sensor (V)
Accelerator Position D (%)
Commanded Throttle Actuator (%)
Throttle Position (%)
Trans Pedal Position (%)

Trans PID's
WOT Shift (Flag)
Upshift (Flag)
Downshift (Flag)
Trans Current Gear
Trans Shift Mode
Aggression Blend(%)
Upshift Speed Offset (RPM)
Downshift Speed Offset (RPM)
Trans Turbine RPM (RPM)
Trans Output Shaft RPM (RPM)

Upon reviewing data logs with very light throttle applications (quasi-steady state to eliminate any other transients) I cannot seem to link the commanded upshift/downshift (flag) and corresponding output shaft speed to any throttle PID. All of them seem to be way out re: 50+ RPMs . The aggression blend is 0.0% so one would assume that the normal scheduling table would be used. On the other hand, the WOT shift table is predictable and commands the shifts once the output shaft speed is reached.

To add to the confusion, none of the 4 throttle % PIDs I've logged are the same value. Furthermore, the only PID that reaches 100% on WOT is the trans pedal position. I have confirmed that this PID triggers the WOT shift flag, however it comes no where near the values when a shift is commanded.

What I think I know:
The Accelerator Position D (%) is derived from the Accelerator Pedal Position Sensor (V) and maxes out at around 91%.
The Commanded Throttle Actuator (%) follows the Throttle Position (%) but has a -10% offset... They max out at ~76% and 86% respectively (Which one is the actual throttle blade position??).
The Trans Pedal Position (%) seems to follow the Accelerator Position D (%) however it is scaled from 0 - 100%. Least corresponding PID to the shift scheduling tables.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Kind regards,
Dan

Tune and corresponding datalog attached.

I done a few more datalogs and have attached some screen captures. Again it seems something is not right with these PT shift schedule tables as the shifts are commanded at a much higher (logged) output shaft speed than what is requested in the table.

For example, in the following log we have a light throttle, 1-2 shift.
Attachment 96095
The marker line is at the exact moment the upshift flag is triggered. In the log this occurs at an output shaft speed (OSS) is 658rpm and the maximum that any accel or throttle PIDs register at that time is ~22%. However, this shift should occur at an OSS speed of ~345rpm according to the normal shift table or ~885rpm according to the performance shift table.
Attachment 96096
Is there still some blending going on between the performance and normal shift tables? The only transmission PID I could find and log the says anything about blends is the "aggression blend". it however stays at 0.0% when steady throttle is applied.

The full datalog is attached. It also shows this odd behavior with other gears shifts.

Im also still at a loss at to which PID is used as the "Accelerator Pedal Position" in these tables. The only PID that swings between 0-100% is the "Trans Pedal Position".
A virtually identical question/issue about the PT shift scheduling on a 2013 JK wrangler was previously posted in this thread but very little info was gathered:
https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...ift-Scheduling

Regards Dan

Attachment 96097

I'm not familiar with the Nag1 tables.

Is shift ID loggable? It could be that there is another table somewhere it is referencing.

What happens if you change the table some? Do shifts follow your change at least somewhat? Or are your changes ineffective?

Turn the Performance Driving Factor switch to disable.

Or try taking it out of 4WD.

4WD may make it reverence the Performance shift tables.

Then just tune the Normal shift tables. Or make both the Normal and Performance part throttle tables the same.

In your logs the shifts are basically what the Performance part throttle tables are set too.

Thanks for the replies so far guys.

The only PID that comes close to a shift ID is the "Trans Shift Mode" which always has the value of "4WD" in the case of the Jeep wrangler. The only reference to this shift mode is in Torque Convertor -> TCC Pattern where this is set to "Normal" for the 4WD shift mode.

I haven't played with the tables yet as I cannot predict their behavior, but I shall try disabling the "Performance Driving Factor" switch and make both the Normal and Performance part time shift tables the same to try and get some predictable PT shift characteristics as per Moparmatty's suggestion.

I guess I should again just start with what should be the most simplest question: What is the actual PID used for the "Accelerator Pedal Position (%)" in these PT shift tables? All these tables are referenced to 0-100% Accelerator Pedal Position, even in stock guise and the only PID I've observed that swings 0-100% is the "Trans Pedal Position (%)" as previously stated. Is this the correct PID?

Cheers,
Dan

So I think I may have made a bit of progress trying to figure out this PT shifting behaviour.
I've disabled the "Performance Driving Factor" switch and have mimicked the values from the Normal PT shift tables into the Performance PT shift tables.

In the latest data log I've noticed that the shifts are scheduled very close to the desired "Trans Output Shaft RPM" when the "Upshift Speed Offset" = 0rpm.
As shown in the following capture, the 3-4 shift is scheduled at a trans output shaft speed of 952rpm at a corresponding trans pedal position of 4%. This is pretty much a match to the desired 950rpm at 0% pedal position requested in the table.
Attachment 96211
Attachment 96212

Thus it seems that this "Upshift Speed Offset" PID is an adder to the OSS values in the PT tables. Im led to believe that the "Upshift Speed Offset" is determined by the "Driving Factor", which is calculated through the "Term Coefficients" and "Decay Divisors".
Can anyone confirm this or know the actual relationship between all these variables?
Is it also possible to log this "Driving Factor"?
Attachment 96214

Cheers,
Dan

Scrap the idea of the trans shifting at the desired Accel Pedal/OSS when the upshift/downshift offset speed is 0.
Shown in the following log is a 1-2 & a 2-3 shift where the OSS = 0rpm.
Attachment 96374

Here the 1-2 shift occurs at an OSS of 628rpm. This would coincide with an accelerator pedal between 60 - 80% from the PT shift schedule tables. However, as you can see, there are no accel pedal PIDs anywhere near this value.
In similar fashion the 2-3 shift occurs at an OSS of 893rpm which coincides with a pedal value between 40 - 60% from the tables.
Attachment 96375

What is actually going on here?? :banghead: Im beginning to believe there must be a bug or a parameter missing in the scanner/editor. The PT shift behaviour simply cannot be explained unless I'm completely missing something here.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Dan

have you made any more progress on this? I have a 16 jeep wrangler that's doing the same thing. it has an sps supercharger on it and im struggling with pt shifting from 3-4 it will rev up to 3k and will stay there until I release the pedal. when I'm commanding it to shift at way lower rpms. I made a calculator on excel to translate oss to engine rpm and to mph and it still does whatever it wants. its running the egs53 controller on a a580 transmission. customer is from out of town and came here from another shop that didn't do too much of a job tuning it and I'm stuck cleaning up the trans tune and engine tune.

Hi Tadias48,

Glad to hear I'm not alone. There are also a few other threads on this forum of others having issues with the NAG1 part throttle shift tuning on their Jeep Wranglers. While most upshifts occur at reasonable engine speeds (but still dont follow the pt shift tables) the 3-4 shift is is by far the worst. If around 25% throttle is applied, mine will hold 3rd seemingly forever and will not command an upshift until the pedal is released. This was the main reason I purchased HP tuners in the first place.

Its almost like the PT tables are not even being used and some other table(s)/parameter(s) that haven't been mapped out are determining the shift.

Im not sure if this is only related to the NAG1 in the Jeep wrangler platform. I was hoping that some of the Dodge tuners could chime in here to see if this issue extends to other vehicles.

Unless I'm missing something really simple, it seems like we cannot predictably tune the NAG1 part throttle shifting behavior in these Wranglers through HP tuners.:(

What is the best point of contact through HP tuners to try and get this issue resolved?

Same situation here (2013 10A JKR, Edelbrock SC, 35's) and I'm running Hemituna's tune. Probably about 95% of it, anyway. And I was having the same stupid crazy shifting issues. Mine would even not want to downshift into 1st gear at stops. And the 3rd gear hang was pure insanity. After tweeking / downloading numerous times, without any progress, I finally tried something.

I did a throttle re-learn under the VCM Scanner. Open Scanner, connect, go to Special Functions, and it's in the same screen as the "Reset Adaptives". It tells you exactly what to do and when. If it's quiet, you'll hear the throttle body clicking and whirring. I did this (and I reset the Adaptives while I was there, I do this every time I do a download), and then things shifted as they should. The husband's JKR (same setup) is a 6-spd, so he doesn't have all the fun and games with the trans!

Will this fix yours? Don't know. But by God it helped mine. And straightened out the idle some too. Will it stay that way? Don't know that either, as these things tend to re-learn and may do stupid crap again. I drive mine about once a week, so I'm not constantly fiddling with it. It's worth a try, especially to save your sanity.

I'm still wondering about a few things, but it appears that I'm not the only one who has these strange issues!

well damn it never crossed my mind to do a throttle relearn. all I did was lower the shift points by 25% I know its not the proper way to do things but more of a bandaid due to the time constraints. the jeep shifted better and not as harsh going into gear either. customer was satisfied. I will be seeing him back to do a watermeth kit in the next few months.

Hemituna's tune is a great tune, I am very happy with it overall, I just had to do some tweeks due to the 35's I'm running. But the more I tweeked, the worse everything seemed to get... kind of like it was never really overwriting anything. Just a weird experience overall, I can't really find a word that fits. I tried doing extreme cuts and such, and nothing seemed to change it!

The fact that doing JUST the trans download takes over 2 1/2 minutes, compared to the ECU that takes under 30 sec is a pain, only to find out very quickly that what you just spent the last little while changing didn't do a damned thing, or made it worse.

But, so far so good with mine. Whenever I do any adjustments now, I just do the Adaptives reset and a Throttle Relearn at the same time. That way I know I'm starting at 'zero', so to speak. I'm just trying to get my torque converter lock / unlock dialed in a tad better, and I'll be happy.

I'm no expert by any means, but if I find something that worked for me, I'll pass it along in case it works for some other poor soul who is on their last nerve. Even a blind hog will find a truffle every now and then.

Cheers for the tips teamrm. I must say I have tried the throttle relearn procedure a few times (in an attempt to remove to initial dead pedal feel on these) but I can say that hasn't done anything in terms of trying to get predictable part throttle shifts. It still seems to have a mind of its own when it comes to these shifts. I now know of 5 users on this forum that are experiencing this same issue with the NAG1 in the Jeep Wrangler, so it must be an issue with HP Tuners on this platform. We all can't be doing the same thing wrong when it comes to tuning the part-throttle shifts on these trans.

I've submitted a ticket with HP tuners and referenced this thread. So hopefully I will get a reply and a solution.

It's not just about the PT schedule, other things need to be adjusted as well.

I do a lot and I mean a lot of Wranglers almost all are FI. Everything will fall into line if you get the JK out of your head and think of a high horsepower FCA with a NAG1 and how you get them to shift.

Hi Mag0842, thanks for chiming in.

I guess what I'm trying to figure out here is how to actually command the shift as requested in the PT schedule tables under light throttle conditions (convertor locked, negligible convertor slip).
So if I wanted to command a 2-3 upshift in my PT table for an OSS of 600rpm and 20% percent throttle how do I actually do that?

Currently I have made all my PT tables (Normal/Performance/Winter) the exact same, in terms of accelerator pedal position breakpoints and OSS values, and I have also set performance driving factor switch to disabled.
But the shift actually gets commanded at an OSS of ~900rpm. Its wayyyy off the what I actually want, a factor of 50%! This occurs even at low acceleration rates (gentle daily driving) where the convertor slip is negligible.

Any clues as to what other things need adjustment to make my actual PT shifts match my requested PT shift schedules in the tables?

Cheers,
Dan

Still persisting with this issue. I've been in communication with HP tuners about it but so far nothing constructive to report.

While browsing through numerous threads on here I did come across an early thread by bluegoat06 regarding WA580 and the shift point strategy.
https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...t406143http://
What I found of interest here were the Pedal % breakpoints and table ID's on his screen shot from the stock TCM tune off his 2013 JK wrangler (same year and model as mine).

Attachment 96997

However, upon opening up the actual tune (where this screenshot presumably originated from that thread) with v4.4.4 the pedal breakpoints and the table ID's do not match.... :confused::confused:

Attachment 96998

As a comparative example: table parameters screenshot of the original for the 1-2 normal upshift table Vs the 1-2 normal upshift table parameters as read from the tune using VCM editor v4.4.4

Table ID = 51650________________________________________Table ID = 45993
Pedal (%) Breakpoints = 0, 6, 20, 31, 42, 50, 96______________Pedal (%) Breakpoints = 0, 20, 42, 62, 81, 92, 100
Shift Speeds = 300, 360, 480, 645, 1020, 1305, 1605__________Shift Speeds = 300, 360, 480, 645, 1020, 1305, 1605

The post is dated 11-28-2015 so I dont know what version of VCM editor was used to do the read but why the discrepancy??
Shouldn't the pedal breakpoints and table ID's still match regardless of what version of VCM editor is used?
Scaling issue? Different table addresses?

If I were to ignore the actual pedal breakpoints in my PT tables and overlay them with the much lower breakpoints as per this screenshot, then my PT shifts would be very close to what I'm actually commanding. Currently it seems that the values of the pedal breakpoints in my PT tables (as read by v4.4.4) are far higher than what they actually are in reality (datalogs) eg at an actual pedal of 20% my shifts occur at shift speeds closer to that of whats under the 40-60% pedal breakpoints in the PT tables...

I've attached bluegoat06's tune from the mentioned thread. Does anyone have an earlier version of HP tuners (circa 2015) to open it and check the PT breakpoints and table ID's for my sanity please?

Regards,
Dan

Attachment 97053

So I managed to open up bluegoat06's tune in question with and earlier version of VCM Editor (VCM Editor 3.0.8).:yay:
When I do this I can replicate all the pedal % breakpoints in his original screenshot.
Attachment 97054

Given the fact that the pedal % breakpoints and the table ID's are different when opening up the exact same tune between VCM Editor versions 3.0.8 and 4.4.4, it surely points to a bug somewhere :confused: Either the actual tables are different (given the different ID's) or the breakpoints are being scaled incorrectly.

Unfortunately, the early version of VCM editor does not seem to be compatible with the MPVI2 and I could not read my current tune with v3.0.8 (nor open them) to compare pedal % breakpoints. Just like bluegoat06's tune I suspect they would be much lower than what v4.4.4 reads. The lower breakpoints as shown in PT shift tables in v3.0.8 would be much more realistic and closer to what the scanner has been reporting.

Where do I go from here??

Cheers,
Dan

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HaasExp

With special thanks to spoolboy I managed to open up bluegoat06's tune in question with and earlier version of VCM Editor (VCM Editor 3.0.8).:yay:
When I do this I can replicate all the pedal % breakpoints in his original screenshot.
Attachment 97054

Given the fact that the pedal % breakpoints and the table ID's are different when opening up the exact same tune between VCM Editor versions 3.0.8 and 4.4.4, it surely points to a bug somewhere :confused: Either the actual tables are different (given the different ID's) or the breakpoints are being scaled incorrectly.

Unfortunately, the early version of VCM editor does not seem to be compatible with the MPVI2 and I could not read my current tune with v3.0.8 (nor open them) to compare pedal % breakpoints. Just like bluegoat06's tune I suspect they would be much lower than what v4.4.4 reads. The lower breakpoints as shown in PT shift tables in v3.0.8 would be much more realistic and closer to what the scanner has been reporting.

Where do I go from here??

Cheers,
Dan

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Do yourself a favour and download the latest BETA software. Whenever you're having an issue with HP Tuners software always give the newest BETA software a try. They fix their mistakes all the time without anyone knowing. I didn't see the issue because I was always looking at your logs and tunes in 4.5.???? software.

When I open the last tune you posted in latest BETA software (4.5.1409) shift tables look just like the last table pictures you posted. I also compared the breakpoints of a stock tune and they are the same. I also compared both in 4.4.4 software and they are not the same as 4.5.1409 which to me means HP Tuners had something messed up.

As an FYI for you. You can change the breakpoints to suit your liking. I spent a lot of time doing this on my SRT8 300 a couple of years ago. Made the transmission shift at the exact throttle position and output shaft speed I wanted so I didn't have to interpolate anything. I looked at the throttle positions I routinely hit around town for my driving habits and set up the break points for where my foot just naturally wanted to sit. I then looked at ground speed I wanted each shift to happen at and then correlated that the the exact output shaft speed. I put the output values under the appropriate breakpoint. As an example, I left the first breakpoint at 0%, the 2nd break point at 20%, the 3rd one at 28% and the 4th one at 35%. I set them that way because I never drove under 20% throttle, so why have any breakpoints lower than that? Taylor them to your driving style. I made all the break points in the Part Throttle upshift and downshift tables the same. Other than the first breakpoint being set to 0%, I see no reason to have any breakpoints lower than where the vehicle is driven.

BUT in your case..... If the breakpoints weren't mapped right, the numbers you changed them too might not have made any sense. Now that it appears they have changed something. Download the latest BETA software and read out the tune currently in the Jeep and try modifying and flashing that file.

As another check. I looked at both my the stock and modified TCM tunes for my SRT8 300 in 4.4.4 and 4.5.1409 and they were both the same. So that tells me they don't/didn't have all the calibrations labelled/mapped wrong.

Here is a trick I just figured out for dialing in shift points - but it only works if you have the ability to shift manually.

Start logging current gear, APP and OSS in scanner.

Drive around shifting manually the way you want your trans to shift. Up and downshifts. Then go back and enter the OSS speeds you logged into the appropriate shift tables.

Appreciate the input to this rather fustrating issue guys!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Moparmatty

Do yourself a favour and download the latest BETA software. Whenever you're having an issue with HP Tuners software always give the newest BETA software a try. They fix their mistakes all the time without anyone knowing. I didn't see the issue because I was always looking at your logs and tunes in 4.5.???? software.

When I open the last tune you posted in latest BETA software (4.5.1409) shift tables look just like the last table pictures you posted. I also compared the breakpoints of a stock tune and they are the same. I also compared both in 4.4.4 software and they are not the same as 4.5.1409 which to me means HP Tuners had something messed up.

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I believe I've just experienced this first hand. Only just downloaded the BETA software on Friday which gave the same breakpoints and table ID's as 4.4.4 (no difference). Low and behold I just checked the version at it was 4.5.1403. Go back to the HP tuners site and download the BETA suite again (Monday) and I got the 4.5.1409! Sneaky!

Can confirm that when using BETA 4.5.1409 the table IDs and pedal breakpoints from bluegoat06's reference tune are the same as what 3.0.8 reads. I can also confirm that the tunes from my Wrangler that I read with 4.4.4 have different table IDs and breakpoints when I open them up in 4.5.1409. These table IDs now match that of 3.0.8. I think we might be onto a winner!

I will do a read with BETA 4.5.1409 and see if everything is all aligned with what the scanner logs to confirm.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Moparmatty

As an FYI for you. You can change the breakpoints to suit your liking. I spent a lot of time doing this on my SRT8 300 a couple of years ago. Made the transmission shift at the exact throttle position and output shaft speed I wanted so I didn't have to interpolate anything. I looked at the throttle positions I routinely hit around town for my driving habits and set up the break points for where my foot just naturally wanted to sit. I then looked at ground speed I wanted each shift to happen at and then correlated that the the exact output shaft speed. I put the output values under the appropriate breakpoint. As an example, I left the first breakpoint at 0%, the 2nd break point at 20%, the 3rd one at 28% and the 4th one at 35%. I set them that way because I never drove under 20% throttle, so why have any breakpoints lower than that? Taylor them to your driving style. I made all the break points in the Part Throttle upshift and downshift tables the same. Other than the first breakpoint being set to 0%, I see no reason to have any breakpoints lower than where the vehicle is driven.

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Very valid points! I have been implementing the same method as spoolboy suggested so I can go by the feel of the vehicle and just set the actual breakpoints and OSS from the scanner to what feels right.

However, this issue was just making it impossible.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Moparmatty

BUT in your case..... If the breakpoints weren't mapped right, the numbers you changed them too might not have made any sense.

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The Pedal% OSS relationship in these tables never made sense!

Sidenote-> Moparmatty: Have you ever noticed neighboring breakpoints having the exact same value in a stock read? I've found a few down shift tables where the pedal % has been the same as the neighboring one although the OSS are vastly different. Odd!
Attachment 97063


Hopefully everything will be sorted now and I can actually tune these shift points correctly (and have them actually match within reason in the scanner).

Thanks again,
Dan

Time for another update.
Heard back from HP tuners support and they added a set of shift tables matching the values of what I saw in bluegoat06's screen shot to 4.5.1417 Beta.
Long story short, those tables didnt solve the part-throttle shift tuning issues. Bugger! :banghead:

However, I think I may have determined and confirmed how the actual part-throttle shift strategy works in these NAG1 boxes, well at least in the Jeep JK platform.

To try and figure this out I made the shift speed under each pedal breakpoint the same, thus eliminating the influence of the pedal % and therefore only relying on the trans output shaft speed to command the shift.
I also copied the tables over so that the same table in each shift mode (Normal/Performance/Winter/Unknown) was exactly the same eg all the 1-2 upshift tables had the same pedal breakpoints and shift speeds etc. On top of that I disabled the performance driving factor switch so no table blending could occur.
Attachment 97140

Even with this very simplified shifting strategy I found that the shifts would still occur in somewhat random fashion! However I managed to correlate virtually every shift in my 20min road test (within +/- 15rpm of the shift speed) from the datalog.
Im now 99% confident that the upshift/downshift speed offset does infact offset the shift speed commanded in the part-throttle shift tables eg the upshift flag is set and a shift is commanded only once the commanded shift speed + upshift speed offset >= output shaft speed.

Here's a good example of the 3rd gear "hang" issue that Ive been struggling with.
Attachment 97141
From the shift tables this should occur at an output shaft speed of 1375rpm. However the upshift flag does not get set until the output shaft speed reaches nearly double that at 2461rpm! The upshift offset at this point is 1116rpm but due to the data capture rate (10ms) and refresh rate for the TCM check for this PID (~250ms) the value of 1087rpm needs to be used. This corresponds to the slight discontinuity in the upshift offset trace.

In this case the actual shift speed now equals: 1375 (commanded from table) + 1087 (upshift offset) = 2462rpm, which pretty well matches the output shaft speed of 2461rpm when the actual upshift flag is set!
Using this method I managed to correlate the error in shift speeds (error = output shaft speed - shift speed) to the upshift/downshift speed offset for a set of 10 up/down shifts, picked at random from the datalog. If the upshift/downshift offset speed is added/subtracted to/from the commanded shift speed then everything matches to within +/-12rpm of the actual output shaft speed.
Attachment 97142
Note that when the offset speed = 0, the shift flag gets triggered when the output shaft speed virtually matches the commanded shift speed. Only then do the shifts occur at the exact output shaft speed commanded in the tables (as you would want).

Now the question is: What factors influence this offset speed? This needs to be known to be able to predictably tune these part throttle shift tables.
In the 3rd gear hanging example, the upshift offset speed only begins to drop once I lift off the throttle. It also shows a discontinuity just as a shift state is flagged.
From these influences I would have to guess that the "Term Coefficients" under "Shift General" have something to do with it.

Ill have a play with these coefficients but ideally it would be great for the engineering team who dissembled the code and wrote the HP platform for the NAG1 to chime in with the underlaying equations to determine how to "tune"/control or zero the upshift/downshift speed offset. There also seems to be a PID missing that should lump all the coefficients in the a single factor :confused:

Datalog and tune attached

Cheers,
Dan

Attachment 97146
Attachment 97147

Still at a loss with this issue.

I started making large changes to the Term Coefficients and Decay Divisors under the Shift General tab in an attempt to control and minimize this Upshift/Downshift Offset Speed parameter. I tried both maximizing and minimizing the the Term Coefficients and Decay Divisors but doing so or any combination of max/min does not seem to have much, if any affect on the Upshift/Downshift Offset Speed. The explanation of these variables relate them to the "Driving Factor". Is this the "Aggression Blend" PID?

After many hours of datalogging it seems that this Upshift/Downshift Offset Speed parameter somewhat randomly changes value, thus any effort to "tune" the part throttle shift scheduling tables will result with the desired shift speed being offset by this parameter and therefore, the actual shift speed will not match that of the table. It is only when the Upshift/Downshift Offset Speed = 0 that the shift speeds match the desired speeds in the tables.

In extreme cases, such as my "3rd gear hang" example, the Upshift Offset Speed can reach such a high value that the 3rd -> 4th gear shift is effectively blocked as the shift will only be commanded once the actual output shaft speed > shift speed + upshift speed offset. This results in stupidly high engine RPMs for no reason eg 4000+rpm at low throttle openings (~15%) even though the desired shift speed translates to engine rpms of ~2500 or so. In most cases lifting off the throttle will decay this upshift offset speed parameter and allow the shift to occur but this is a serious annoyance!

This Upshift/Downshift Offset Speed parameter is really messing with these shifts. How do we control, "tune" or disable it so we can gain full control over these part throttle shifts?

Anyone have any other ideas or inputs?

Cheers,
Dan

Hello all.

My first post on this forum. I have zero experience from dodge but i have done some tuning on egs52 in mercedes diesel. There ecu send throttle position value to egs52 which is used on those tables. And for that there is "inverse driving map" in ecu where is pedal % and axis are engine rpm and injected duantity. So pedal value to egs52 is not real value or same what ecu uses. Maybe similar thing here?

Have you thought about disabling the torque management on the engine side to see what happens?

What about resetting all adaptives?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Juuso124

Hello all.

My first post on this forum. I have zero experience from dodge but i have done some tuning on egs52 in mercedes diesel. There ecu send throttle position value to egs52 which is used on those tables. And for that there is "inverse driving map" in ecu where is pedal % and axis are engine rpm and injected duantity. So pedal value to egs52 is not real value or same what ecu uses. Maybe similar thing here?

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This is rather interesting Juuso124. I wonder if the OS's are the same as in these FCA vehicles? Do you have a read from a Mercedes with a egs52 that I could have a look at?

To try and figure this all out I'm currently running simplified shift scheduling tables, where all the shift speeds are set to the same value (see post #21). In doing so the pedal position shouldn't have any bearing on when the shifts occur. Doing this I was able to correlate the actual shift speed to the desired shift speed +/- the upshift/downshift offset speed.

I still need to check if the pedal break points make sense once this upshift/downshift offset speed can be controlled

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Moparmatty

Have you thought about disabling the torque management on the engine side to see what happens?

What about resetting all adaptives?

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Every time after a TCM reflash I use the scanner and do a trans initialize and reset the trans adaptives. Don't know if its required but this is the same procedure I've followed every time.

Torque management on the engine side? Any table/switches in particular?

HP support have gone a bit quiet of late so I'm willing to give any suggestions a go.

Just want to be able to actually tune when this trans shifts..

I read egs52 with Ktag and modify file in Winols. I looked dodge file (downloaded from somewhere) in vcmsuite and managed to find same maps for mercedes in winols. I have understood that A580 is same tranny what MB calls 722.6. Also example porsche files are allmost identical to mb so i think if dodge tcu is readed with then it would be similar also.

If this problem is in pedal value, then changes needs to be done in ecu, not in tcu. Maybe hptuners cannot find this map in ecu? Then you need to find it from hexdump in winols or similar.

Ecuconnection.com and there egs52 thread you can find many mercedes maps if interested. I havent found any dodge maps from internet. Maybe anyone havent read them with ktag to get hexdump file?

Thanks for the info Juuso124! I'll browse through that forum and check out the EGS52 thread. You might be correct about his bizarre calculated pedal value, however when I effectively eliminate this pedal variable (by making all the shifts speeds the same) this upshift/downshift offset speed variable still messes with the actual shift speeds. I believe that once control over this variable has been achieved then its time to look at the randomness associated with the pedal variable.

HaasExp, any updates? I'm having the same trans shift issues after installing an Hamburger SC, and was reading through your thread with anticipation of my potential solutions...

Hi pmj. Unfortunately no updates as of yet but I am still actively datalogging and attempting to make sense of the PT shifting weirdness.

What vehicle do you have?

Can you share a datalog of your PT shifting issues including the Upshift/Downshift offset parameters? It seems to be these parameters that are messing up the PT shift scheduling from the analysis I have done so far. Try and set it up your logging with the parameters as I have in the screenshot in post #21. Set all the polling intervals to 10ms.

I have a 2015 JKU. Seeing the exact same problem.
I dropped most of the output shaft speeds 25% or so (in both up and down shift tables) and am much happier with the daily drive, but I still get gears hanging due to the offset. I?ll work on getting a log.
Been years since I used HP tuners and I?m not very efficient...

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Originally Posted by HaasExp

Hi pmj. Unfortunately no updates as of yet but I am still actively datalogging and attempting to make sense of the PT shifting weirdness.

What vehicle do you have?

Can you share a datalog of your PT shifting issues including the Upshift/Downshift offset parameters? It seems to be these parameters that are messing up the PT shift scheduling from the analysis I have done so far. Try and set it up your logging with the parameters as I have in the screenshot in post #21. Set all the polling intervals to 10ms.

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I've been following this thread for awhile as I also have a customer with a 2012 JK that hangs 2nd gear terribly. I think the shift offset is being influenced by the increased torque of the supercharger under moderate load. The vehicle is confused because it's seeing much more torque so it holds the gear until the torque drops. I played with the Torque/Airflow Factor table and did get a result with shifts occurring sooner, but not acceptably. I fooled the computer into thinking it was creating less torque for more airflow. In my opinion there is a parameter missing.

Here's my next idea: I have a tune file for a NAG1 Procharged Challenger making ~700lbf torque that shifts perfectly. I'm going to change the shift points to my desired JK points and flash the complete TCU tune from the Challenger. It may have higher torque limits, or other data that cannot be seen. I'll let you know what happens.

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Originally Posted by evolmotorsprt

In my opinion there is a parameter missing.

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This is what I have concluded also. There must be a set of parameters that influences this "Shift Offset Speed" parameter. If they could be found or even disabled, this trans could be made to shift predictably every time at the tuner's specified shift points.

Would be good to see a log from the vehicle you are currently tuning in terms of the shift offset speed parameter and also of the NAG1 Procharged Challenger. Might be able to find something between them to help the situation.

I tried to alter the shift points on my 2016 JK several years ago, with no luck.

The only thing I found is that after programming the TCM and then doing a part throttle pull it would shift exactly according to the tables. Then if I stopped and did another part throttle pull without changing anything it would not shift according to the tables. So perhaps adaptive learning is being used.

For testing I set the upshift points to 10 20 30 40 mph and it was easy to see when it worked. BTW it would be nice if the software would do the shaft rpm to speed calculation rather than me using a spreadsheet.

I also had no luck disabling the WOT shift in autostick. About 100 times per trip I end up in a battle with the transmission on a long grade when out of autostick it will downshift to 4th, I switch to autostick and shift to 5th where it is happy for a while, maintaining speed, and then it will downshift to 3rd despite being in autostick. Raising the WOT helped but this is fairly annoying.

Given my lack of success on the above two points I then looked at the TCC pressures, with more success. If you graph the upshift / downshift speeds (or rpms) vs TCC lockup there are some oddities. You can feel these driving where the TCC lock up point is sometimes just over the shift point and sometimes just under.

Also with the regular shift tables the upshift and downshift overlap in places. eg 2-3 is at 30mph but 3-2 is at 36 mph @ 80% throttle. The upshift and downshift offset take care of it but it is not right.

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Originally Posted by xennex

The only thing I found is that after programming the TCM and then doing a part throttle pull it would shift exactly according to the tables. Then if I stopped and did another part throttle pull without changing anything it would not shift according to the tables. So perhaps adaptive learning is being used.

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Yes I have also noticed this. There must be some timer that activates these offsets as well. You can shut the car down, restart and get a few shifts in that perfectly match the tables.
Then things start to drift.

If you log the upshift/downshift speed offset you will find that it is 0 for the first few changes after restarting the vehicle (thus the shifts match the tables perfectly), then it starts to creep in and the shifts are all over the place again.

Quite frustrating!

Can you get data with more pressure and torque variables? I'd bet money that the root of your problem is airflow adaptions from the blower offsetting the value that determines shift speed. This would be why it's fine after a restart and fine at WOT: after a restart, the adaption hasn't taken place yet so its fine until it adapts and accurate at WOT because the adaption disables and just runs the stored baro up to whatever your calibration clip is.

I'm stock so no blower effects. Now I have time to look at the issue I can't find the MPVI.

From memory I disabled 'Perf Driving' 532 and then set the shift tables for 10,20,30 and 40 mph. Doing this it would shift exactly at 10, 20, 30 and 40 mph at part throttle, but only once. I did try changing the shift torque adapt 46563 but do not think it made any difference.

So what is the upshift/downshift speed offset? To me they're calculated from some other tables / inputs. In places they inch up and down; in other places they jump to 4700 rpm, presumably to stop an upshift at that point.

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Originally Posted by smokeshow

Can you get data with more pressure and torque variables? I'd bet money that the root of your problem is airflow adaptions from the blower offsetting the value that determines shift speed. This would be why it's fine after a restart and fine at WOT: after a restart, the adaption hasn't taken place yet so its fine until it adapts and accurate at WOT because the adaption disables and just runs the stored baro up to whatever your calibration clip is.

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I can get this data but as xennex pointed out this also happens when stock which I can also confirm as I'm currently back to the factory stock tune as I'm servicing and modifying my blower. So it's not directly related to the airflow values with the blower as large upshift/downshift speed offsets still exist that mess up the shift scheduling even when bog stock with the factory tune.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by xennex

So what is the upshift/downshift speed offset? To me they're calculated from some other tables / inputs. In places they inch up and down; in other places they jump to 4700 rpm, presumably to stop an upshift at that point.

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This is also where I'm stuck.

I fully agree that they are being calculated from some other tables/inputs. You can see step changes in their value when you lift off the pedal, apply the brake and when the upshift/downshift flags are set etc.

Almost like something similar to the "term coefficients" parameters under the "Performance Driving Factor" (however these don't seem to effect the offsets speeds btw).