I mean it had more low end and now its gone. I made changes that I think will fix it, but so far unable to floor it and see.
My overall goal isnt more power than I had before, its to get the power I once had, some 22 months ago, back.
Thanks to your copy I have a much better understanding. Boost was my issue, so I thought, but now that I have it and some, its still slower than stock. So now I'm wondering what else is wrong :(
maybe bad turbos, wastegate, or high IAT's
This table is limiting your torque. First, click the Vehicle Speed axis title to return the speed values to stock. It somehow was changed to 224mph for all but the first two columns.
Then, try the torque values in the lower screenshot.
Attachment 118022
Thats how OETune had it, and since it, oem, and the charts very existance make no sense, I left it be for now. But apparently it doesnt limit because it did work like that. I dont suppose anyone knows what its for?
It places torque limits based on vehicle speed. I'm not so sure it "worked" but rather maybe the PCM was being tricked by other torque tables.Quote:
Originally Posted by chevota
Like other many other charts n stuff in there, it doesn't make sense. This one especially so because why would I be limited to full oem torque of 450 until 100mph? Or with the OE Tune I'd need to going 224mph. Torque should only be based on rpm, or maybe "Wheel Torque" as the name suggests could be useful for traction, maybe, but actual wheel torque at 19mph is more like 5000, not 213. Can't be flywheel torque either. So the question remains; wth is it?
Another issue is OE actually lowered torque compared to oem. Yet another one is the six 224mph values, which does the ECU read? The first, lowest, highest, an average, random each time? Not the first time I've seen this sorta stuff in tunes either.
So all this tells me the chart is bogus, or maybe incorrectly named and actually handles something stupid like air conditioning or who knows what. Or maybe some weird function like the "Max Airflow Limit Base" under Airflow/General/Limits. I don't see the point of that chart either.
Once I get this thing working right I was planning on tweaking charts/setting like that one at a time and see what it really does. So far, the names and descriptions of maybe half the charts are Greek to me. Seems to me the guy writing the description for each item, at the very bottom of the window, could've spend another minute making an actual accurate description and saved hundreds or thousands of people many thousands of hours trying to decrypt it.
Here's some examples of weird stuff that can make things even more confusing to a noob. Or the last two that were great.
Attachment 118030
Sooner or later we'll get this thread to live up to its title and be able to explain what all these torque charts n crap is.
Several of those tables are jacked up... the column values are not right. That is the only reason they are confusing. I don't know why or how they came to be that way in your tune... If those were taken from a tune that began with the OE Tune read, then the OE Tune probably was written with different software and values got mixed up when read by HPT.Quote:
Originally Posted by chevota
The column axis values (MPH) are incorrect. Exactly, you're never going to reach 224mph. I think the data was corrupted after being written by one tool used by OE and then read by what we are using here.Quote:
Originally Posted by chevota
I think that "wheel torque" may be a translation from German (in which all these tables were originally created) and thus may not mean what we expect it to mean. But I don't think it takes gearing and torque multiplication into consideration. I can basically assure you that the values you see are not the values that OE would have written/intended. They are nonsensical. Maybe Joe Biden uses HP Tuners and that was copied from his tune. :p
The Wheel TQ vs VSS table is real and it works. That's exactly what it's for, traction... or lack thereof, if that's your thing.
The PCM uses each table as a lookup and references whatever value is true at any given time. The values form a curve (or a straight line in some cases). Any point along that curve can be used, not just the specified values. Those values just form the curve.
OE and other tuners edit the axis of the "Wheel Torque vs VSS" to a high speed so the pcm will keep the torque unlimited all the way till it hit the speed specified just to move another torque limit out of the way .. Why do they do all columns in that way? simply you got to fill in some values !!Quote:
Originally Posted by chevota
Personally I dont like doing it in that way and yes this table has an affect which measures torque whether its wheel or flywheel just set it to a limit which will get you where you want.
The axis (10K) on the Max Torque map is just a mistake that sometimes happen with the definition file from hptuners server, if you ever read a car and it gave you nonsense axis numbers dont play with them or change them!! contact support about it.
But it's not unlimited. It's very much limited at the speeds that actually matter!
Attachment 118049
Does anyone see the problem with these torque values?
All I know is I have those #'s in mine and with those or the oem #'s I can exceed those values by probably 2x, so it doesn't work anyway.
Another thought is; if it were for traction, then why is the oem not scaled 0-60mph? Obviously traction or torque limiting above that is pointless, yet oem limits all the way to 155. Doesn't make sense...
As for the OE Tune chart, which is where that one Schnell just posted comes from because I didn't change it, has issues imo. One is it appears to be lower than the oem chart, but difficult to tell because which one of the 224 values is actually used?
I plan on moving the #'s sky high to ensure they don't bother me. Flip a coin... and 10,000 across the board it is ;)
All those in the pix were taken from tunes posted here on the forum for 550 and 63's, which were both helpful and equally more confusing.
Yes, I understand the values are just connecting the dots of a curve, and it's often much easier to use the 2D chart to make something how I feel it should be, like fuel. I don't care for 3D charts though.
I have also played with the horz & vert scaling to alter charts. Like the Torque to Load chart is 0-80%, which makes zero sense to me, so one of the first things I did was change it to 0-100 and changed the max value in the cells from 200 to 220. Why? Why not. The Optimum Torque chart scaling I changed from 180 to 220 simply because I raised the #'s in Torque to Load to 220, but I don't know what it actually does and the changes didn't seem to do anything. So to reduce confusion I changed them back to oem. I'll play with them when I know what they actually do. I don't mean what points to what, which outlaw was kind enough to explain, but what they actually do. Eg; if I change one value anywhere in either one, or the scaling, what all does that affect and why? Sorry, but I'm wired to understand every detail. If I can't find out I'll start experimenting to find out. In this case it would be extremely time consuming so it's back burner since the oem settings on those two seem to work fine.
I'm currently trying to figure out all the limiters so I can disable every one. I think I've got most of them but perplexed by the many 885 #'s. When I see 885 I wonder if it's tied to the Normalizer, and raising it will upset things. Or maybe that's the trannys rated limit so it's just a std limit to use? I may never know...
Meanwhile it's been raining here for days so I can't test anything >:|
What I meant is for example your target torque is 500 lb but you dont want any limiter to cap your torque till you hit a specific speed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Schnell
look at it this way; your asking the ECU "I want all the torque available but once I hit 200 mph don't let me go over 500".
So if you set all the column axis to 200 mph the limiter will only be active if you hit that speed ,, otherwise you can go over 500 lb or less it wont care unless you hit the speed.
The way you worded that gives me the impression this chart won't allow any other limiters to work until the target speed is reached. As in I set all to 300mph and no limiter will ever bother me?
That would actually be awesome, but so far I've assumed this is just one of many limiters and this or any of them can get me if I overlook them and none of them can override any other?
Actually I think this limiter will be the last one for the ECM to look at, who knows !Quote:
Originally Posted by chevota
Hi againQuote:
Originally Posted by clifftoo
Now i know why we get P061B (Internal Control Module Torque Calculation Performance).
I managed to get it, if i scaled the NT, torque to load and Optimum torque to 600Nm->800Nm ( I will show it later). When i increase optimum torque table too much vs torque to load map. This happened while in cruising ~80km/h and low load levels. It can be very sensitive. So, when you ask too much Optimum torque% and it will not match with the torque to load map -> you will get p061B. You can fix it by lowering Optimum torque % like -3% where ever you got that error. Why? Unclear still. I think, it can be something to do with: optimum torque map is engine load based and torque to load is load or absolute load based.
I am almost done with the NT rescaling and it looks promising. But still the car won't let me go or do not show much over 450Nm (stock limiter) maybe 500Nm, but it start to limiting throttle valve and turbo wg start to open from 3000rpm->. Again... TCU? There should be moro options to log limiters :/. I have managed to get boost from 1,8bar to 2,4bar and it's is quite fast :cool:
I will reply to my own post.. nah.. Going back to the original NT (in my case 600Nm)
It is close, but there is too much work to do and TCU seems to be one of the problem.
Someone can try this by (example):
Your NT 600
New NT 800 (what ever you want... use lower)
calc 800/600=1,3333
use that factor to calculate new calibrations for the torque to load table. Then you have to use it for every engine load rows, which use engine torque %. Don't touch map calibrations, only engine load rows.
I will borrow previous pic and use blue. Hope this will help or start something new :drivin:
Makeclick, this reply is mainly for you, but since we're both taking stabs in the dark here I hope others will chime in.
So you're saying if you bump the Normalized Torque xx%, then bump whatever the % torque is on the table by the same xx%, it'll work?
My understanding is we can't see all the charts, only the most important ones. So if we missed one then it's instant limp mode?
Also, do we really need to exceed the Normalized? I know mine is 885 for an eng that oem makes 450 and certainly can't make 885. On the other hand, I do know that I can raise the Driver Demand past 885 and it responds, so is it referencing Normalized? If so, then I guess 885 is just a reference #, not a limit. Meaning I can ask 110% and it gives it? Not that I'm making >885, just that I plug in >885 and power does increase, so from a numbers perspective it's working.
Trust me, I'm guessing here because this is all super confusing. I just keep pushing buttons until something happens, and I can assure you I've had to reload the ECU on the side of the road because the eng shut down more times than I can count.
You said if you increase the Optimum Torque too much and the Torque to load not enough, you get a fail, which I know all too well. But I raised my Optimum just a wee bit and raised the Tq to Load up a lot. It seems to me that simply messing with Optimum at all is risky and its best left alone?
Based on the values in the Optimum chart I wonder if this is volumetric efficiency? Or is it just random values used to mathematically end up where you want in the end? Meaning maybe they could be ten times that as long as other valued elsewhere brought the final value back to where it should be? To be honest I don't understand why Optimum exists at all.
Then there's what outlaw said, which is the opposite of the picture:
"Throttle position (Driver Demand) -> Optimum Torque -> Optimum Torque (monitor) -> look for the percentage on Torque to load map -> ECU asks for the load (which calculates the boost needed)"
This makes more sense than the picture and it's what I've been going on, but still don't see why Optimum needs to exist. Surely it has some other function in life?
outlaw certainly knows more than I do about all this so I'll take his word that the above is how it plays out. I still don't understand it, but this info is better than nothing.
He did make one huge mistake, he said, and I quote; "Don't over think it, its straight forward." I think about all the time when I'm trying to make this work... I use software and hardware at work that is complicated and confusing, but this program takes the cake. I'm sure it's not that hard if you know what everything is and does, but the problem is I/we don't. Plus the descriptions are either confusing or simply wrong, plus there are misc errors and omissions thrown in. All that is why it's such a pita and I'm certain I'll never figure it all out. I've got my car working better over the past few weeks, but can't really explain why, it's just trial and error again and again.
Our Optimum torque error; is it really a conflict with Torque to Load, or is it conflicting with Optimum Torque Monitoring? outlaw said it was in the loop so it's certainly possible. Maybe the trick is to simply make both Optimum charts the same? Or do they need to be messed with at all? It's like 2+2+2=6, if you want 9 do you really need to change it to 3+3+3? Or you can you simply change one # like; 2+2+5? By that I mean the two Optimum charts and Torque to Load, because it seems to me you only need to increase the Torque to Load and it works. I mess with Optimum and CEL or limp mode.
Then I also wonder about the % for the rows. Optimum goes to 180% but the values are <80. Ok, so if I ask for 180% torque that ends up as a value of 75 in the chart. outlaw said that goes to Optimum Monitored but I don't think it goes into Monitored, but maybe it's comparing or double checking? No clue to be honest.
Then if that 75 goes into Torque to Load, 76 = ~180. Ok, but then I wonder because 180 is what I asked for originally, which is why I don't see the point to the Optimum charts.
I also wonder because increasing Torque to Load didn't do much for me until I increased Max Torque Driver Input (Torque Management/General). So really I had to increase both Torque to Load and Max Torque Driver Input.
But I still didn't get very far and the response wasn't what i expected. Then I tinkered with Maximum Desired Load (Airflow/General). All the oem values in there are 96 to 159 and not sure what they mean, and they certainly don't make sense. I didn't get far tinkering there either, until I stopped pussyfooting with it and set all values to 300. Then things started to work... So Max Desired Load is apparently a limiter? If it were a limiter holding me back then I'd assume my original attempts of increasing the values by 50% would net a response, but I didn't get that until I really opened it up. Why? Yet another frikkin mystery...
Imo there should be one chart; gas pedal position = torque out. Done. Maybe once you remove all the limiters and max out some bs crap you can get to that point.
Speaking of: I see under Airflow/General there is Manual Control for Desired Load... It appears you can set throttle position to directly = Desired Load. Anyone try that? Would this bypass the Torque to Load? Bypass Desired Load? I'll probably just have to try it and see huh?
There is also a manual control via throttle position for the turbo, but seems to me manual based on throttle position would not work out. But as-is my wastegates and boost are all over the place so who knows, maybe it's better than what I have? What is yours? You said you bumped it from 1.8 to 2.4, but when you say that do you mean peak or average? My peak and average are very different, like peak might be 22psig and avg may be ~14? So I guess that's peak of 2.5bar, low of ~1.5 and avg of 2bar? All within 2 seconds btw and usually never the same. Like the next time I floor it might peak at 16 (2.1bar). It may peak in a split second and very quickly drop fast, or it might start low and slowly increase. It may spike up when it shifts, it may drop. Frustrating... So when they say the oem boost for mine is 13psi, I don't know if it's supposed to be 13 across the rpms, or is it all over the place like mine?
At first, wow :D long answer!
Quote:
Makeclick, this reply is mainly for you, but since we're both taking stabs in the dark here I hope others will chime in.
So you're saying if you bump the Normalized Torque xx%, then bump whatever the % torque is on the table by the same xx%, it'll work?
Quote:
Yes it will :) If you multiply "torque to load table" with the same multiplier, but you have to multiply "engine load" rows also, because you will need more air to you new 0-100 scaling (NT)
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My understanding is we can't see all the charts, only the most important ones. So if we missed one then it's instant limp mode?
Quote:
Maybe... that is why you need change all torque tables and monitorin tables (only "engine load rows") and then it could be worth of nothing :banghead:
Quote:
Also, do we really need to exceed the Normalized? I know mine is 885 for an eng that oem makes 450 and certainly can't make 885. On the other hand, I do know that I can raise the Driver Demand past 885 and it responds, so is it referencing Normalized? If so, then I guess 885 is just a reference #, not a limit. Meaning I can ask 110% and it gives it? Not that I'm making >885, just that I plug in >885 and power does increase, so from a numbers perspective it's working.
Quote:
Like description Normalize is scale for 0-100% of torqure. If you set it (sorry i need to use NewtonMeters) 450Nm->550Nm you can calculate new scale with excel. Example 50% torque is OEM 450*0,5=225Nm -> 550*0,5=275Nm SO, when you change the NT it will scale everything up and can mess everything up :D if tarbles/charts will use 0-100% of torque.
Quote:
Trust me, I'm guessing here because this is all super confusing. I just keep pushing buttons until something happens, and I can assure you I've had to reload the ECU on the side of the road because the eng shut down more times than I can count.
Quote:
Not meany, but been there :D
Quote:
You said if you increase the Optimum Torque too much and the Torque to load not enough, you get a fail, which I know all too well. But I raised my Optimum just a wee bit and raised the Tq to Load up a lot. It seems to me that simply messing with Optimum at all is risky and its best left alone?
Based on the values in the Optimum chart I wonder if this is volumetric efficiency? Or is it just random values used to mathematically end up where you want in the end? Meaning maybe they could be ten times that as long as other valued elsewhere brought the final value back to where it should be? To be honest I don't understand why Optimum exists at all.
Quote:
Easy way is to only raise torque to load map, but the engine calculated torque is lower than it is in real world :/. I think the optimum torque is like theoretical maximum torque, but then there is many many different tables which will try to lower it down.. like spark and lambda efficiency. I am with you! I think this optimum torque is one piece of....
Quote:
Then there's what outlaw said, which is the opposite of the picture:
"Throttle position (Driver Demand) -> Optimum Torque -> Optimum Torque (monitor) -> look for the percentage on Torque to load map -> ECU asks for the load (which calculates the boost needed)"
This makes more sense than the picture and it's what I've been going on, but still don't see why Optimum needs to exist. Surely it has some other function in life?
Quote:
Yes, this is good info and it seems to fallow that, but still m133 can go 420-440~hp and then there is mystical wall :)
Quote:
Then I also wonder about the % for the rows. Optimum goes to 180% but the values are <80. Ok, so if I ask for 180% torque that ends up as a value of 75 in the chart. outlaw said that goes to Optimum Monitored but I don't think it goes into Monitored, but maybe it's comparing or double checking? No clue to be honest.
Then if that 75 goes into Torque to Load, 76 = ~180. Ok, but then I wonder because 180 is what I asked for originally, which is why I don't see the point to the Optimum charts.
I also wonder because increasing Torque to Load didn't do much for me until I increased Max Torque Driver Input (Torque Management/General). So really I had to increase both Torque to Load and Max Torque Driver Input.
Quote:
You mean "engine load" row in optimum torque? yes, so that is engine load, we live in ~1 bar/100kPa -> 0,145038 psi, so it is absolute 1,8bar/180kPa -> 26,106795 psi.... Yep :D it will be easier to think metric like Germans/MB do. You asking engine load and it will end up in the chart of "optimum scaled 75% of engine torque" (450*0,75=337,5Nm). Yep, that is a mess.
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So Max Desired Load is apparently a limiter?
Quote:
Yes, you have to change that.
Quote:
Imo there should be one chart; gas pedal position = torque out. Done. Maybe once you remove all the limiters and max out some bs crap you can get to that point.
Speaking of: I see under Airflow/General there is Manual Control for Desired Load... It appears you can set throttle position to directly = Desired Load. Anyone try that? Would this bypass the Torque to Load? Bypass Desired Load? I'll probably just have to try it and see huh?
Quote:
I did, but my car was awful to run with it and i lost my OEM "fanfars" pop and bangs. Same will happen if i set Wastegate to manual control.
Quote:
There is also a manual control via throttle position for the turbo, but seems to me manual based on throttle position would not work out. But as-is my wastegates and boost are all over the place so who knows, maybe it's better than what I have? What is yours? You said you bumped it from 1.8 to 2.4, but when you say that do you mean peak or average? My peak and average are very different, like peak might be 22psig and avg may be ~14? So I guess that's peak of 2.5bar, low of ~1.5 and avg of 2bar? All within 2 seconds btw and usually never the same. Like the next time I floor it might peak at 16 (2.1bar). It may peak in a split second and very quickly drop fast, or it might start low and slowly increase. It may spike up when it shifts, it may drop. Frustrating... So when they say the oem boost for mine is 13psi, I don't know if it's supposed to be 13 across the rpms, or is it all over the place like mine?
Quote:
22psi is 151,6kPa or 1,516 bar. Is it boost or absolute? Do you log you Wastegate? You should. Do it dance or is it more solid? How your TPS acting and commanded TPS?
I was talking the boost not absolute pressure. The absolute pressure is now 360kPa ->52,2psi :rolleyes: 5500rpm-6500rpm. Stock is 280kPa in A45 amg, so quite high. Now I hit the wall.. Fuel pump is barely keeping up :D. this is 3rd gear, but 4 gear it is lower and i don't know why.. It hit some engine temp limiter, because lambda goes 0.75 and load is 320kPa or 340kPa. Still fast but odd
It's always hard for me to understand when people say what boost they have. First you have then psia and psig, then you have boost before and after the throttle blade, then metric stuff. So when someone says 30psi boost I assume it's psia since psig would a lot, but you never know. And what's with BAR anyway? Does the eng consider sea level pressure as boost? Confusing...
Yes I watch the boost duty cycle, and in digital read out it's usually a blur under boost because it's moving around so fast. Normal cruise it's at 90%, but when I first gas it it'll drop way down to a random # like 20, then go up >60, then back down to 50 or so etc.
How low it drops at first is determined by how quickly I gas it, so 1/8th throttle quickly will drop it way low where slowly moving it 1/2 will do little. Then how much it closes depends on how much gas I gave it, so if 1/8 it'll go to maybe 80+%, but if full throttle maybe only 60. It takes time to physically open/close so that just makes turbo lag much worse. Lag can be anywhere from < half a second to maybe two seconds. It all depends on rpm and the stupid ECU and it's stupid boost control system. To somewhat fix that I set the Min duty cycle to 50%. 55% was too much btw and it overboosts easily, so 50 works. As a bonus it helps when the ECU decides to take away my boost altogether thanks to whatever error. 50% will still give me most of my power. In fact I raced a Charger and a Vette and when I checked the data later I saw boost was pulled but that 50% setting kept me in the race and surprisingly I was beating the Charger.
Outside of that boost is all over the place through the rpms. It might be >10psi difference between the low and peak psi. Then the next gear the boost will act totally different. If I stop and floor it again, again boost in each gear will be different. It may also change at cruise, like Friday it was 90% while cruising on the freeway, which it usually is, but at one point it dropped to 50% for ~30sec, then back to 90. Speed control was set to 77 on flat ground. So why did it do that? Super frustrating...
So I will be playing with the manual load and turbo settings, one of these days. Meanwhile the 50% min works for me and tomorrow I'll see how 70% max works. So yes, 50-70 is the total range now. I was wondering if when you did manual boost, did you use the oem chart or did you alter it? Because my chart is set so the wastegates are open almost all the time except at >90% throttle, which seems like a disaster.
With the manual "Desired Load" my oem value is 10%. I assume it should match my Maximum Desired Load on the same page (Airflow/General)? If so, I set that chart to 300 in all cells so not sure how manual will work with my other settings. It seems it's only a limiter so I'd need to open up other limiters to allow manual desired Load to work.
I think the "Torque to Load" and "Max Torque Driver Input" are my controlling factors now. Torque to Load values peak at 225% and driver input peaks at 950. Still working out exactly what those two do and how they affect each other.
Torque to Load seems simple, but a small change from 225 to 220 makes a big drop in power so I'm confused. The Driver Input not so much, so I'd need to make a much larger change, like 10%, to see the same difference.
Torque to Load seems like a real chart, and Driver Input seems like a limiter but it's not exactly acting like one. Or are they both limiters? So confusing...