Help with 2.4l LE5 Supercharged going in a boat

I am putting an LE5 from a 2007 Pontiac G6 donor into a jet boat that I'm converting.
I am in Alaska and don't have anyone within a couple hundred miles that could potentially help tune this.

I would like help with a base tune just to get it started. Others have offered to help once I can start doing some data logging but I need to get it started first. I have searched the repository and I'm not sure there anything that would get me going. I have also tried other forums without much success.

I don't have room for MAF in the doghouse so need an SD tune. I have been familiarizing myself with HPT but having never tuned before I feel a little overwhelmed with just getting started. And of course I don't want to blow up my engine before I even get on the water.
I'm new to this so any advice is welcome.

What I have:
07 LE5 from a G6 using the E67 that came from the same vehicle
M62 with stock pulley
Bosch Green Giant 42lb injector (0280155968)
LSJ electronic TB
3" short CAI
2.5" water jacketed exhaust
AEM wideband with output though CAN adapter
LSJ 2.5 bar TMAP
Standalone wiring harness

My stock NA tune attached


Here is a pic of my setup with a few vac lines, fuel, cooling lines, etc. to still connect.

Attachment 68971Attachment 68972

I have been running MAF only in my E67 2.4 turbocharged LE5 because SD was such a pain and the MAP sensor was maxed out at 105 kpa (boost goes over this). I hit the easy button with MAF and never looked into fixing the MAP scaling.

With the previous version of HPT before the big update I certainly tuned SD below 2,000 rpm for MAF failure limp home, I used the Bluecat tool which was a separate application that translates the ultra-complicated GM VE tables into the "traditional" VE table for you to edit, then translates the traditional table this back into the ultra-complicated GM VE tables.

HPT was supposed to have launched GM Virtual VE, which I gave up trying to understand last summer as there were no resources.

I foresee your biggest challenge to be this Virtual VE tool (I don't think Bluecat supports the new HPT version) and also make sure you've got a Wideband O2 for feedback.

Another challenge I had was trying to setup a Scanner table to record the VE vs. AFR (Lambda) to get the errors in fueling. I actually never figured this out: https://www.hptuners.com/forum/showt...re-ratio)-mean

Quote:

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Originally Posted by steelmesh

I have been running MAF only in my E67 2.4 turbocharged LE5 because SD was such a pain and the MAP sensor was maxed out at 105 kpa (boost goes over this). I hit the easy button with MAF and never looked into fixing the MAP scaling.

With the previous version of HPT before the big update I certainly tuned SD below 2,000 rpm for MAF failure limp home, I used the Bluecat tool which was a separate application that translates the ultra-complicated GM VE tables into the "traditional" VE table for you to edit, then translates the traditional table this back into the ultra-complicated GM VE tables.

HPT was supposed to have launched GM Virtual VE, which I gave up trying to understand last summer as there were no resources.

I foresee your biggest challenge to be this Virtual VE tool (I don't think Bluecat supports the new HPT version) and also make sure you've got a Wideband O2 for feedback.

Another challenge I had was trying to setup a Scanner table to record the VE vs. AFR (Lambda) to get the errors in fueling. I actually never figured this out: https://www.hptuners.com/forum/showt...re-ratio)-mean

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Thank you. Even though not an encouraging post for a non-tuner like me it at least helps me focus on what I need to learn or do. It sounds like I may need to find a way to route enough intake to install a MAF. I don't have a MAF sensor or wiring so I would have to look at the pin out on the ECM to add this. I have installed the LSJ's 2.5bar TMAP. I thought I saw some scaling for the MAP already posted.

Any suggestions on the most plug and play MAF sensor? I have some 3" ABS pipe I could use. If nothing else I could use a temporary straight section of pipe and tune it before installing in the boat. I have a 36" section of stainless exhaust to install one of those AEM clamp on O2 bungs for tuning. This will keep it from having any chance of moisture from the water stream from jacketed exhaust coming close to the sensor (AEM wideband). That will be a temporary setup when tuning.
Are there any problems seen with this approach?

I do have a lead on a couple of guys working on SD tune with same 2.4, s/c, e67 combo in a stand alone buggy. I probably will wait a couple of weeks to see if they come up with a solution for theirs. They have a dyno to work on while tuning.

I will make this work at some point. If I get this tuned well I will definitely be sharing so hopefully helping others out that may considering something similar.

Outboard sold over the weekend and jet pump install scheduled for June so no going back now!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by steelmesh

I have been running MAF only in my E67 2.4 turbocharged LE5 because SD was such a pain and the MAP sensor was maxed out at 105 kpa (boost goes over this). I hit the easy button with MAF and never looked into fixing the MAP scaling.

With the previous version of HPT before the big update I certainly tuned SD below 2,000 rpm for MAF failure limp home, I used the Bluecat tool which was a separate application that translates the ultra-complicated GM VE tables into the "traditional" VE table for you to edit, then translates the traditional table this back into the ultra-complicated GM VE tables.

HPT was supposed to have launched GM Virtual VE, which I gave up trying to understand last summer as there were no resources.

I foresee your biggest challenge to be this Virtual VE tool (I don't think Bluecat supports the new HPT version) and also make sure you've got a Wideband O2 for feedback.

Another challenge I had was trying to setup a Scanner table to record the VE vs. AFR (Lambda) to get the errors in fueling. I actually never figured this out: https://www.hptuners.com/forum/showt...re-ratio)-mean

---

Thank you. Even though not an encouraging post for a non-tuner like me it at least helps me focus on what I need to learn or do. It sounds like I may need to find a way to route enough intake to install a MAF. I don't have a MAF sensor or wiring so I would have to look at the pin out on the ECM to add this. I have installed the LSJ's 2.5bar TMAP. I thought I saw some scaling for the MAP already posted.

Any suggestions on the most plug and play MAF sensor or is it better to find an OEM sensor? I have some 3" ABS pipe I could use. If nothing else I could use a temporary straight section of pipe and tune it before installing in the boat.
I have a 36" section of stainless exhaust to install one of those AEM clamp on O2 bungs for tuning. This will keep it from having any chance of moisture from the water stream from jacketed exhaust coming close to the sensor (AEM wideband). That will be a temporary setup when tuning.
Are there any problems seen with this approach?

I do have a lead on a couple of guys working on SD tune with same 2.4, s/c, e67 combo in a stand alone buggy. I probably will wait a couple of weeks to see if they come up with a solution for theirs. They have a dyno to work on while tuning.

I will make this work at some point. If I get this tuned well I will definitely be sharing so hopefully helping others out that may considering something similar.

Outboard sold over the weekend and jet pump install scheduled for June so no going back now!

technically the maf on that ecu isnt used until 7000 rpm which means for the most part that ecu is in sd mode unless you plan on exceeding 7000 rpm. the reason people say you cant remove the maf is because this ecu relies on the IAT sensor located within it the maf for VE calculations. If you want to run without it that is fine, just make sure you wire in a new IAT to the maf temp sensor signal wire so the ecu can continue to use that signal feed as designed. There is a way to disable the IAT but it throws the ve coefficients way off when you do that. (v8 section dabbled in that) if you use a new sensor from gm and know the signal output voltage per given temperatures you can modify the sensor signal for the IAT under the Airflow-General tab in the editor.

as for tuning ve in your ecu, steelmesh is correct, Virtual VE is enabled in the current release of HPT Suite. It can be found under the Edit tab in the editing software.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cobaltssoverbooster

technically the maf on that ecu isnt used until 7000 rpm which means for the most part that ecu is in sd mode unless you plan on exceeding 7000 rpm. the reason people say you cant remove the maf is because this ecu relies on the IAT sensor located within it the maf for VE calculations. If you want to run without it that is fine, just make sure you wire in a new IAT to the maf temp sensor signal wire so the ecu can continue to use that signal feed as designed. There is a way to disable the IAT but it throws the ve coefficients way off when you do that. (v8 section dabbled in that) if you use a new sensor from gm and know the signal output voltage per given temperatures you can modify the sensor signal for the IAT under the Airflow-General tab in the editor.

as for tuning ve in your ecu, steelmesh is correct, Virtual VE is enabled in the current release of HPT Suite. It can be found under the Edit tab in the editing software.

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Thank you so very much. I'm lowering max rpm settings to 5,000rpm. Likely I won't even be able to go that high so if it does something bad happened or sucked in a bunch of air into the pump so I want it maxing out at that rmp.

I just started to read about the VVE. A lot of this is still just outside wrapping my pea brain around. If you have any recommended reading on VVE it would be appreciated.

I had an IAT separate from my MAF on my wiring OEM car wiring harness. My new harness had the same connector so I assumed it would give the ECM what it needed. Is there a difference if this is used vs MAF wires for IAT?

I used the recommendations on wiring the TMAP from other conversions. Here is what I did.

Attachment 69277

I'm sure many are saying, "What the heck is he doing trying to tune. They guy has no clue." I don't have any options out here and just like everything else, it won't ever happen if you don't try. At least if I ruin the motor I can get replacements far cheaper than anything else. And I'm having fun learning something completely new to me. Thank you all for the patience.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cobaltssoverbooster

technically the maf on that ecu isnt used until 7000 rpm which means for the most part that ecu is in sd mode unless you plan on exceeding 7000 rpm. the reason people say you cant remove the maf is because this ecu relies on the IAT sensor located within it the maf for VE calculations. If you want to run without it that is fine, just make sure you wire in a new IAT to the maf temp sensor signal wire so the ecu can continue to use that signal feed as designed. There is a way to disable the IAT but it throws the ve coefficients way off when you do that. (v8 section dabbled in that) if you use a new sensor from gm and know the signal output voltage per given temperatures you can modify the sensor signal for the IAT under the Airflow-General tab in the editor.

as for tuning ve in your ecu, steelmesh is correct, Virtual VE is enabled in the current release of HPT Suite. It can be found under the Edit tab in the editing software.

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Thank you so very much. I'm lowering max rpm settings to 5,000rpm. Likely I won't even be able to go that high so if it does something bad happened or sucked in a bunch of air into the pump so I want it maxing out at that rmp.

I just started to read about the VVE. A lot of this is still just outside wrapping my pea brain around. If you have any recommended reading on VVE it would be appreciated.

I had an IAT separate from my MAF on my wiring OEM car wiring harness. My new harness had the same connector so I assumed it would give the ECM what it needed. Is there a difference if this is used vs MAF wires for IAT?

I used the recommendations on wiring the TMAP from other conversions. Here is what I did.

Attachment 69278

I'm sure many are saying, "What the heck is he doing trying to tune. They guy has no clue." I don't have any options out here and just like everything else, it won't ever happen if you don't try. At least if I ruin the motor I can get replacements far cheaper than anything else. And I'm having fun learning something completely new to me. Thank you all for the patience.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cobaltssoverbooster

technically the maf on that ecu isnt used until 7000 rpm which means for the most part that ecu is in sd mode unless you plan on exceeding 7000 rpm. the reason people say you cant remove the maf is because this ecu relies on the IAT sensor located within it the maf for VE calculations. If you want to run without it that is fine, just make sure you wire in a new IAT to the maf temp sensor signal wire so the ecu can continue to use that signal feed as designed. There is a way to disable the IAT but it throws the ve coefficients way off when you do that. (v8 section dabbled in that) if you use a new sensor from gm and know the signal output voltage per given temperatures you can modify the sensor signal for the IAT under the Airflow-General tab in the editor.

as for tuning ve in your ecu, steelmesh is correct, Virtual VE is enabled in the current release of HPT Suite. It can be found under the Edit tab in the editing software.

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Thanks for the insight here. Through my experiences I haven't really messed with SD on my N/A-Turbo LE5 above 2,000 rpm.

From what you're saying, changes to the MAF air flows "above" 2,000 rpm in my case is compensation for SD errors?

My current (mis)understanding is that you can disable SD and force MAF: http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=196696

"Now, we have to force the PCM to only run off the MAF airmass and ignore the calculated airmass from the VE coefficients. To do this, we're going to go to “Engine>Airflow>Dynamic” in the VCM Editor. Under “Dynamic Airflow”, we're going to change “High RPM Disable” to 2, and 'High RPM Re-enable” to 1. This will prevent us from entering Dynamic Airflow mode."

Any thoughts? You did say "technically" hehe

sd is a mode where the maf sensor is not referenced. therefore, until the stock 7000 rpm dynamic threshold is surpassed by physical engine rpm the maf sensor is not used for measuring airflow.
The IAT is its own circuit, gm just decided it needed to be in the same housing so they had a maf sensor made that includes one. all you have to do is add one in (solo) and wire it to the iat signal wire in the maf harness.
if you run boost the ve coefficients can compensate using the ve tuning software but you need a sensor that is rated for a range that covers your boost target. dont forget to program its parameters into the ecu if you swap them out from stock. (i dont know what sensors are stock anymore so i cant comment on their factory ranges)

if you force maf use only then you would have to install one and wire it in to the maf connector. to force code the maf as always read as priority then yes your high rpm and re-enable steps would do that for you.

OK, I'm sure someone that knows how to tune might be embarrassed with this tune. I'm just happy it actually ran. It ran like garbage but I didn't expect much. At first I tried finding some forced induction tunes for the LE5 but that wouldn't even run. The injectors wouldn't even fire. So, I started over and made minimal changes. I changed only the fuel rate and disabled VATS and evap system along with a few other things that aren't attached.

For some reason it won'd drop below 2,900 rpm. The throttle 'pedal' is the one that came from the same car/motor/ECM.
The AFR was super high so I didn't run it long. It may appear in the video that the exhaust has water in it but I checked and all the water is running on the outside.

https://youtu.be/e16GM-ZOQXE

I sure wish I had someone to take this motor to for tuning.
I need to work on my logging. If anyone has a format that works for this type of setup let me know.

As always, I appreciate any advice offered.

Attachment 70015Attachment 70016Attachment 70017

So, here is my attempt. It ran horrible but at least ran. It idles around 3,000rpm. I can't find any vacuum leaks which is easy since I only have vac lines for the fuel pressure reg and boost bypass actuator. I don't have any emissions stuff.
I do see the MAP oddity. I am at 13.5psi when not running (ambient should be closer to 14.7 since I'm only at 1,100ft) and when running it reads around 4psi. Wouldn't that mean huge amount of vacuum? Faulty MAP? Maybe I wired it incorrectly. I have linear/offset: 270.59kPa, -3.30kPa.
I checked the TB and it is closed at idle. With the engine off I did check to see if the TB opening moved with the pedal position and it appeared to move the corresponding amount of pedal applied.

Help is GREATLY appreciated.

Attachment 70066Attachment 70067Attachment 70063Attachment 70064Attachment 70065

And a video of it running. It actually sounds smooth. Applying a little throttle and it seems to run OK.
https://youtu.be/e16GM-ZOQXE

Adding some more info.
The throttle/pedal position seems a little odd. I added a quick log of throttle/pedal movement with engine off since I can't come close to adjusting it while running.

I am sure I don't have a MAP sensor problem. I tried switching wires to make sure I didn't wire it wrong and it wouldn't read right. Wired it back the way it was. MAP is fine. I have huge amounts of vacuum. The S/C bypass diaphragm clamps shut like vice grips.

For some reason one of times I started it the idling ok at 1,000 and a little rich. Left it there for a while to let it warm up. Just touched the throttle and it went back to 3,000 rpm idle. I took the air filter off and the TB appears completely closed from cranking to 3,000rmp.

Maybe it is a bad TB vs incorrect wiring? How would I test this?

Attachment 70076Attachment 70077

try switching desired throttle from vss to tps.
a guy named aaron came in here having revving issues at idle in his sand rail. Went through everything to get it to run better at idle and it came down to this table being switched over since it no longer had a vss signal for the ecu.

Getting discouraged. The past several times I tried to start the engine wouldn't run. It would fire briefly then die.

VSS tables seem to be all over. The only thing I could find to change was Airflow_> throttle_> axis -> changed to rpm.

I was frustrated with trying to get this engine running I removed the supercharger and put it back to normally aspirated with stock manifold and TB, stock injectors. I don't have stock intake with MAF so this not attached. Flashed stock tune with minor changes such as fault codes for systems not attached disabled and throttle axis changed to RPM.

Idle was 4,000rmp. Left t there for a minute to record and see if anything changed. Scared the snot out of myself when I went to turn it off and my leg bumped the throttle. Moved the throttle so that won't happen again.

The only fault code was P0102 MAF circuit low which I expect since it doesn't have a MAF.

Any ideas. I would have thought going back to stock would have solved the tuning problem. Does this just "require" a MAF. I couldn't imagine that could the the problem otherwise there should be bunch of people reporting their car's rpms running away whenever there is a MAF failure.

It seems like the problem is between the accelerator position throttle positions. Anyone with ideas? Bad accelerator? I'll be running down the wiring but I doubt that's it since it does get readings.

Attachment 70107
Attachment 70108
Attachment 70109

If blade is closed to 3000 rpm you have a vacuum leak. Check to see if brake booster ports are sealed. Steve

ok so you dont have an external IAT wired in i can tell from your log.
Your ambient air states its 68* outside yet magically your intake is -40*

when you delete the maf you must wire in a new iat sensor to the iat wires in the maf harness. the stock maf sensor is a 5 wire maf sensor: ground/maf signal/iat signal/ 5 volt ref. you must at a minimum wire into the iat signal as this ecu is a density modeling ecu. by not supplying the correct temperature you throw the algorithm way off and thus run like garbage.

Now im not going to guarantee this fixes your high idle but its something you will need to include in your build in order to tune the engine properly.

at a minimum since we know its 70 outside set your iat calibration tables at maximum resistance to say 90* this might solve your starting issue. your iat sensor upgrade must be wired in post supercharger cooler FYI otherwise the calculations are not for incoming cylinder air temperature.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cobaltssoverbooster

ok so you dont have an external IAT wired in i can tell from your log.
Your ambient air states its 68* outside yet magically your intake is -40*

when you delete the maf you must wire in a new iat sensor to the iat wires in the maf harness. the stock maf sensor is a 5 wire maf sensor: ground/maf signal/iat signal/ 5 volt ref. you must at a minimum wire into the iat signal as this ecu is a density modeling ecu. by not supplying the correct temperature you throw the algorithm way off and thus run like garbage.

Now im not going to guarantee this fixes your high idle but its something you will need to include in your build in order to tune the engine properly.

at a minimum since we know its 70 outside set your iat calibration tables at maximum resistance to say 90* this might solve your starting issue. your iat sensor upgrade must be wired in post supercharger cooler FYI otherwise the calculations are not for incoming cylinder air temperature.

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I forgot that I had to rewire the IAT to the Bosch 2.5 TMAP which would read post s/c temps. Because of this I missed that I didn't have a temp reading when I reverted back to NA.

I think I might have found my problem. Last fall when I pulled everything off and got s/c parts I cleaned things up. I have been finding people that have done anything with their throttle bodies, even just manually moving the butterfly valve, can cause it to go into a high idle of 2,000rpm or so. Some higher idles than others. This may be my problem since it otherwise will run smooth.
I found "cleaned TB" in the control panel and tried that but no change.
Now to read for a solution. I'm sure there is one that will work.

I'll post my results. Hopefully good results.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EFIHARNESS

If blade is closed to 3000 rpm you have a vacuum leak. Check to see if brake booster ports are sealed. Steve

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Thank's Steve. I did seal everything off. I looked again and the blade looked closed. I started wearing earmuffs so I could tolerate taking a better look (straight exhaust is pretty loud with your head 2 foot away from it) and it wasn't entirely closed. It just looked that way but it wasn't.

Give me a call next week as one of the supercharged cars is going to the dyno friday or monday. Steve