Timing and injector split on a 6.7

Does anyone have experience tuning these 6.7s and know what a good ballpark timing value and injector split these trucks like for power? I've seen tunes with 155mg torque to fuel tables and 2-3ms of injector PW @25k psi have negative values for timing at 2600RPM all the way to 3400RPM! Is there a reason for that? or am i missing something? I thought you'd add timing when increasing fuel mass to maintain your split. Also why would you need to add more injector PW when you can add mg of fuel in the tq to fuel tables? Wouldn't the ECU turn more mg of fuel into more PW? I can't log injector PW to see what my actual PW is, I just see my mg of fuel being delivered. I know i could use my stock Injector PW table to backwards calc the fuel PW but if you guys change them to make more power you can't know at that point? Anyways please educate me! Thanks in advance for your reply's!:cheers:

do the tunes you are looking at have pilot injection disabled? if there is a pilot injection then maybe it won't need full advanced main timing.

PW is duration, spraying more mg takes longer, I would think it's six of one or half dozen of the other in that case.

don't know if there is a timing calculator out there for these but I just picked up a 19 powerstroke and having lots of fun learning to tune with no spark plugs. :-)

just not much to read about these I guess.

I made a timing calculator for them. About a 50 50 split is what I used on my 6.4 and it worked well. That is wayyyy to much IPW, the 11-14s max out around 1450 us at Max rail pressure. That's enough fuel for high 400s to 550 depending on turbo

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Originally Posted by CKrueg

I made a timing calculator for them. About a 50 50 split is what I used on my 6.4 and it worked well. That is wayyyy to much IPW, the 11-14s max out around 1450 us at Max rail pressure. That's enough fuel for high 400s to 550 depending on turbo

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What is the stock timing split on them? I'm curious to see what the factory does. Also would you be willing to share your timing calc? I have a very nice one from a guy who posted one a while back, Possibly you lol. I'm always curious to compare if there are any differences. What's the main difference in comanding fuel in the tq to fuel map and injector PW. I'd think the factory would have scaled the injector pw map perfect and you'd only have to add fuel via the torque to fuel map.

Factory may be best for emissions, noise etc. It all depends on your priorities. Factory is definitely NOT tuned for max power and efficiency. I'll post it up when I get back to my tuning laptop. Typically if you add fuel in the PW map only do it at the very top to keep everything working normally under normal driving conditions. There are a ton of things that reference estimate torque and by adding fuel all over that is thrown off. Also adding fuel down low will require adding boost to keep combustion efficient

I've been adding fuel to my tq to fuel map but only in the 800+tq range and i added timing to keep it at a 50-50 split. Ill reset it and see if adding fuel to the pw up top feels any different. I'm trying to get it to make power all the way to 3400, the main limiter i've found for reving it out is Trans OSS for shifting but it'd lay over unless there is fuel on the tq to fuel map. i wanted to get my fueling and boost right before letting it rev out to 3400. I love the way it shifts and drives down low. i also like the pedal map how it is not super touchy all the time.

I'll just throw this out there....

This appears to be a torque based computer like the ecoboost and newer gm gas stuff, etc.

The fuel tables are mapped out up to 1033 ft lbs and the Driver Demand table basically lines up with advertised power levels.

Have you tried simply demanding more power and raising your limiters in the right places and right amounts to let it happen?

Would you then have a 100 ft lb tune?

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Originally Posted by Higgs Boson

I'll just throw this out there....

This appears to be a torque based computer like the ecoboost and newer gm gas stuff, etc.

The fuel tables are mapped out up to 1033 ft lbs and the Driver Demand table basically lines up with advertised power levels.

Have you tried simply demanding more power and raising your limiters in the right places and right amounts to let it happen?

Would you then have a 100 ft lb tune?

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Yes i have and it helped some but not too much of a difference, commanding 1200 from 1033 did absolutely nothing which makes me think we've hit our stock limit. When i added fuel at first i just added it to a factory defuling area at 3400rpm and it seemed to make a difference, it wanted to rev instead of lay over as hard between the shifts. I added fuel in the TQ to fuel table along with timing and it seemed to help. I just started adding boost and that really seemed to help but i haven't gotten far enough yet. But let me explain My whole thought process on how i'm understanding tuning and hp tuners, feel free to correct me i'd love to know if i'm wrong. If i want to make more power i need fuel, i can add more fuel one of two ways and make more power "if" the air is there, idk if it is or isn't but i'll give it a shot and see. Who knows maybe ford left me some excess air to burn. So i look at my options for fueling. The injector quantity table shows the flow of the stock injectors at a given pressure per x amount of time, i could change this to get more fuel by saying it takes longer that it really does to flow a certain amount. Therefor unless i changed injectors i theoretically shouldn't need to change anything on this table, unless ford messed up or i find a spot the injectors just aren't flowing what i think they should. I then think there's gotta be another way to add fuel and to me that's the tq to fuel table. We want X tq we need X fuel! That seems super simple and makes sense to me! X torque commanded at X RPM means X fuel. When my pedal is at 80-100% i want it all! so now we command the fuel for 1200tq. I look at the boost control tables and guess what!?!? They are also overlaid by tq and rpm! So niw u think i know how to add fuel! Sooo! i can slowly start adding fuel, air, and timing until my components can't mechanically keep up and those areas don't lose hp/tq from taking or adding fuel and timing. That's how i see it let me know if i'm wrong! lol i hope this helps you guys see my reservations to add microseconds to the pw table.

I'm not saying your doing it right or wrong because I don't know if you are.

What I was saying is that the demanded/commanded torque level in the tune is 900 or 930 or whatever.
The fueling tables are mapped to 1033.

So if you demanded/commanded 1033 (and changed some of the limiters to allow it) then technically the ECM should be able to do the rest meaning you don't need to change timing/duration/boost values or anything really. Now if you wanted more than 1033, like 1200 as you mention, then you will need to revise those tables of course.

the issue with that is I haven't seen anything regarding what to measure/target to hit your power level. Diesel doesn't seem to use lambda to make power so it isn't like you can measure fueling error in your airflow model and make an adjustment. So how do I know I am making progress? Push more fuel to a certain EGT?

Also, if you look at the heavy load areas they appear to have decent timing in them, especially if you consider pilot injections, which are even more advanced.....I dunno.

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Originally Posted by JaegerWrenching

Yes i have and it helped some but not too much of a difference, commanding 1200 from 1033 did absolutely nothing which makes me think we've hit our stock limit. When i added fuel at first i just added it to a factory defuling area at 3400rpm and it seemed to make a difference, it wanted to rev instead of lay over as hard between the shifts. I added fuel in the TQ to fuel table along with timing and it seemed to help. I just started adding boost and that really seemed to help but i haven't gotten far enough yet. But let me explain My whole thought process on how i'm understanding tuning and hp tuners, feel free to correct me i'd love to know if i'm wrong. If i want to make more power i need fuel, i can add more fuel one of two ways and make more power "if" the air is there, idk if it is or isn't but i'll give it a shot and see. Who knows maybe ford left me some excess air to burn. So i look at my options for fueling. The injector quantity table shows the flow of the stock injectors at a given pressure per x amount of time, i could change this to get more fuel by saying it takes longer that it really does to flow a certain amount. Therefor unless i changed injectors i theoretically shouldn't need to change anything on this table, unless ford messed up or i find a spot the injectors just aren't flowing what i think they should. I then think there's gotta be another way to add fuel and to me that's the tq to fuel table. We want X tq we need X fuel! That seems super simple and makes sense to me! X torque commanded at X RPM means X fuel. When my pedal is at 80-100% i want it all! so now we command the fuel for 1200tq. I look at the boost control tables and guess what!?!? They are also overlaid by tq and rpm! So niw u think i know how to add fuel! Sooo! i can slowly start adding fuel, air, and timing until my components can't mechanically keep up and those areas don't lose hp/tq from taking or adding fuel and timing. That's how i see it let me know if i'm wrong! lol i hope this helps you guys see my reservations to add microseconds to the pw table.

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That is pretty much right. The reason adding torque above 1033 doesn't do anything is because that's that max axis value in the torque to fuel map. Anything above that the fuel quantity is unchanged. Your next step would be to max out your last column on the torque to fuel map- I believe 160 mg. Then go to the IPW map and if you still want more, add duration to the 160 mg column. Be careful here as too much will drain the fuel rail. Also you will need to change timing here to keep combustion centered around TDC vs out the exhaust. Like you stated you will need more air as well. Stock 11-14 turbos are delicate and they don't live long above 30 psi.Attachment 88773Attachment 88773

Hmm, maybe we are looking at two different things, my 6.7 is a 2019, if you guys are working with an 11-14 the ecm logic is probably different.

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Originally Posted by CKrueg

That is pretty much right. The reason adding torque above 1033 doesn't do anything is because that's that max axis value in the torque to fuel map. Anything above that the fuel quantity is unchanged. Your next step would be to max out your last column on the torque to fuel map- I believe 160 mg. Then go to the IPW map and if you still want more, add duration to the 160 mg column. Be careful here as too much will drain the fuel rail. Also you will need to change timing here to keep combustion centered around TDC vs out the exhaust. Like you stated you will need more air as well. Stock 11-14 turbos are delicate and they don't live long above 30 psi.Attachment 88773Attachment 88773

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Awesome that makes perfect sense, i will try that. Any luck with going either side of a 50/50 split on these 2017+ trucks? Or a boost limit to stay at? i heard we can make roughly 550hp DPF intact but i don't have a clue on how much fuel that should require or boost. Any rough numbers would be awesome so i don't overshoot and soot the crap out of my DPF lol, Thanks CKrueg i appreciate the knowledge and help. Also My truck is a 2018 f250, so i think it has the revamped version of the 2011 single sequential turbo but i'm not 100% sure? I heard it's the same as the 2015 also but I haven't been able to look at it quite yet. Higgs Boson we have the exact same ECU with the exact same tune and engine that i know. I'd love for you to post your stock tune up and i'll post mine up and we can verify that.

Attachment 88781Attachment 88780 Here is my stock tune and the timing calc i've been using. I didn't make this calc but i've been using it and transposing the tq to fuel table in excel as it's not the same as HP tuners.

gotcha, yes then I am sure they are the same. I saw 11-14 up there and thought you might have one of those.

here is my stock tune.

Attachment 88782

I just want to say we have had good luck with tuning thus far. Truck runs good and seems to like the changes, dyno time coming soon. I got some good advice from a good tuner over team viewer and i added some PW to the 160mg column after verifying truck was commanding 160mg. We are at 1280us from the stock 1230us @ 200000KPA rail pressure. I gotta say it's pretty darn quick! CKrueg do you recommend changing the pilot timing at all? I turned off pilot fueling above 2200 RPM, stock had i think 1.5mg from 2200-3400. It doesn't seem to do much but i see your timing calc has all kinds of goodies there. Lots of time and hard work into it i'm sure, so i won't ask you to share it but i am curious to know what if any changes you think should be made to pilot timing and pilot fueling after adding us to the main injection?

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Originally Posted by JaegerWrenching

I just want to say we have had good luck with tuning thus far. Truck runs good and seems to like the changes, dyno time coming soon. I got some good advice from a good tuner over team viewer and i added some PW to the 160mg column after verifying truck was commanding 160mg. We are at 1280us from the stock 1230us @ 200000KPA rail pressure. I gotta say it's pretty darn quick! CKrueg do you recommend changing the pilot timing at all? I turned off pilot fueling above 2200 RPM, stock had i think 1.5mg from 2200-3400. It doesn't seem to do much but i see your timing calc has all kinds of goodies there. Lots of time and hard work into it i'm sure, so i won't ask you to share it but i am curious to know what if any changes you think should be made to pilot timing and pilot fueling after adding us to the main injection?

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I read a few study's and for the most part pilot mass had the greatest effect. More mass resulted in a slower pressure spike and reduced injection delay. It actually increased smoke but reduced NOx and noise. It did have a positive effect if main timing was retarded but the overall efficiency was better with increased main timing and reduced pilot mass. As for timing it had a greater effect on noise when it was close to the main injection however the best results was with 2 smaller pilots spaced out. What I did was converted the timing from degrees to Ms and then spaced them out a certain time before the main injection. So basically one pilot is always starting around 1 Ms before the main and the other is one Ms before the other pilot. Also as load increases I spaced them closer to the main since in theory they should ignite sooner after injection meaning you need less advance
I'm not totally sure if this is best but the OEM map is all over the place which seems odd. My 6.4 ran great like this so I imagine it works well.

When tuning injection split 45/55 would you set it up
Pilot 1 = 45
Pilot 2=55
Or are you just setting both the same ? Thanks

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Originally Posted by Jeffrey Kavney

When tuning injection split 45/55 would you set it up
Pilot 1 = 45
Pilot 2=55
Or are you just setting both the same ? Thanks

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The split refers to percent of injection before tdc vs after. 45-55 means setting up soi so 45 percent of the Injection is before and 55 after tdc. So at 1400 us of pulse width, 630 us is before and 770 is after

I understand the relationship and economy vs performance I see stock they have a 50 in the 1st column in pilot injection if I set them from 50 to 40 will I have to set the 60 on my pilot 2 or just put 40 in 1st column in both pilot 1&2

Big secret I guess

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Originally Posted by Jeffrey Kavney

I understand the relationship and economy vs performance I see stock they have a 50 in the 1st column in pilot injection if I set them from 50 to 40 will I have to set the 60 on my pilot 2 or just put 40 in 1st column in both pilot 1&2

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I'm not sure exactly what numbers you are referring to. Could you post a screenshot of the columns you're referring to?

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Originally Posted by Jeffrey Kavney

I understand the relationship and economy vs performance I see stock they have a 50 in the 1st column in pilot injection if I set them from 50 to 40 will I have to set the 60 on my pilot 2 or just put 40 in 1st column in both pilot 1&2

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Jeffrey you're confusing the pilot's with the main injection. The Pilot injection is not part of the split unless the calculator you're using adds it to which i'd say that's confusing you. Most of the time you only care about the main because we always know Pilots are just that, they are before our main. So Say we have a 45/55 split that's referring to the main injection we know if the main is splitting before and after TDC the pilot will be 100% BTDC. I'm a firm believer in using a timing calc as a point of reference only.

I must be really confused if I add timing and fuel to the map how will i know how much is before TDC and what’s BEFORE AND AFTER I DONT KNOW IF IT IS THE VGT TURBO BUT I ADDED FUEL IN PILOT 1&2 and lambda to .30 I can’t get a puff I am not happy with my tuning If I knew where my stock file was I would just buy a tune Waiste of time

I’ll post it it’s the .50 1st column pilot 1 mode 0-3

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Originally Posted by CKrueg

I read a few study's and for the most part pilot mass had the greatest effect. More mass resulted in a slower pressure spike and reduced injection delay. It actually increased smoke but reduced NOx and noise. It did have a positive effect if main timing was retarded but the overall efficiency was better with increased main timing and reduced pilot mass. As for timing it had a greater effect on noise when it was close to the main injection however the best results was with 2 smaller pilots spaced out. What I did was converted the timing from degrees to Ms and then spaced them out a certain time before the main injection. So basically one pilot is always starting around 1 Ms before the main and the other is one Ms before the other pilot. Also as load increases I spaced them closer to the main since in theory they should ignite sooner after injection meaning you need less advance
I'm not totally sure if this is best but the OEM map is all over the place which seems odd. My 6.4 ran great like this so I imagine it works well.

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I got bored and tried this today on my way to the grocery store. Interesting experiment! I had to force the truck into Injection Config 1 in all gears/conditions to make allow for 2 pilots. My pilot timing/mass probably could have used a little work, but it seemed to run well.

I got this weird diesel-rattle mode momentarily while slowing to a stop as the truck transitioned back into idle. I took logs but haven't looked into them yet. Re-loaded my last good tune for now until I dig any deeper.

Any chance you have any screenshots of your pilot timing/mass and main timing from back then? I'll try to post some up of my experiment in a bit.