Any way we can have the norm perf and sport labeled for hellcats in say () like norm(street) perf(sport) sport(track) for all the shift pressures slip times and torque management settings?
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Any way we can have the norm perf and sport labeled for hellcats in say () like norm(street) perf(sport) sport(track) for all the shift pressures slip times and torque management settings?
I was guessing that those were the drive modes that corresponded with those labels.
I think MAX is actually ECO?
Better labels would be helpful.
But why is there a 4WD Low option on a HC?
The pressure and shift time tables are generic in their labeling as this is multi platform universal TCM so to speak. That 4WD is just a label they attached more then likely because 4wd dodges use that table for the most part. They populate a bunch of gear pressure and shift time maps. Just because its labeled as one thing does not necessarily mean its only used for that. Only guarantee is the gear its tied to but not the condition.
So if it is labeled the same, say NORMAL in the shift schedules, shift timing and shift pressures, is it safe to assume that these tables are used together AND under the same conditions? It?s not grabbing data from NORMAL and SPORT at the same time in some applications/conditions?
Or is there a way to see what tables are being accessed in the scanner so I can figure it out for myself?
I?m real new to this (got my MPVI yesterday) but motivated and fairly good at figuring stuff out....
Going to marathon some Youtube on HP Tuners stuff tonight.
Wish Dodge had the same coverage in the Help file for transmission as the Ford and Chebbie guys.
Our whole Parameters page is blank, lol
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZF_8HP_transmission
look good at that list. The way ZF labels the maps is even more generic. think normal/performance then an odd special shift then max. Each gear has these maps and well they can be tuned and are tuned different for the most part. Not all of the maps are pulled for each condition and that is also mapped by each manufacturer. I dont know if it is able to be logged yet but the more platforms hp opens up the more they will have to find a way to go back to the generic maps or factory labeling and then give a way to log. But for now they are good guidelines. Looking up old forums for other platforms it looks like multiple pressure maps can be pulled at once depending on set conditions not just by selecting street or sport or track or drag mode.
Thank you.
Looks like I need to do a lot of driving with the scanner hooked up....
I'm starting to put things together.
Track doesn't use 8th gear, so those shift schedule tables are easy to narrow down.
Eco doesn't use first, so those are easy to narrow down.
That leaves these weird "normal, normal perf, sport, sport perf".
I'm going to play with those and swap the modes around and see what happens. Should be able to figure them out by process of elimination.
The ZF8 is used in many applications and when we originally added it last year, we tried to make it a little more Dodge specific, but quickly realized this was not an easy effort, especially as we add more manufacturers.
The ZF8 is better thought of as its own controller by itself and not a "Dodge" controller, because that's what it really is.
4WD Low are used only during 4WD Low applications, but the Hellcat does not ever use these. The reason you still see the tables is the operating system used by the Hellcat is not unique to the Hellcat, other applications that do have 4WD Low (the trucks) also have the same operating system. Because we define things by operating system, you'll see them in all applications, including unused ones.
Normal, Perf, Sport, Max: these are shift strategies. Which one is used by which mode is actually quite a cluster and we don't have an easy way to show which is which, so its being added as a loggable parameter in Beta, under "Clutch Shift Type". For example, on a Hellcat, Normal trans mode in Drive, uses "Normal". But put it into Manual Mode with Normal Trans still selected, and now it uses Perf tables.
It's also considered a "use the highest below this". For example, if your current type is Sport, but the table set only has Normal and Perf, it uses Perf. The idea being that Normal -> Perf -> Sport -> Max have increasing levels of shift speed and feedback.
As to the "Normal, Normal Perf, Sport, Sport Perf, Track" shift schedules, I've started to relabel some of this to better correspond to whats happening. Basically depending on your actual selected trans mode, how aggressive you're currently driving, and your perceived hill grade, the shift tables are designed to get more or less aggressive.
To explain this, I'll use the ZF9 as an example as I believe we will move everything to be more like it to better indicate this.
Attachment 81473
First, we decide our Aggression level. To do this, we need to know our current Shift Situation (which is basically your trans shift mode. In the Hellcat, Normal, Sport, Track, Valet, etc all have their own "situation"). This is loggable.
The situation automatically puts you into a certain range of "Driver Type". 0 being the least aggressive driver, up to a max of 14 being the most aggressive driver.
As well, there's a constant "counter" running thats basically an indication of the current aggression of your actions. Some situations may have a range, for example, 20 to 200 for your aggression counter. As you move up the counter, you start moving into higher driver types.
Finally, your driver type is mapped into an "Aggression". For example, we have lower type = 0, upper type = 4, lower aggression = 0, upper aggression = 1, this means that driver type 0 is aggression 0, driver type 4 is aggression 1. In between driver types are blended between the various aggressions.
For Dodge, we simply named the aggression modes. Normal = 0, Normal Perf = 1, Sport = 2, Sport Perf = 3, Track = 4. However, the Shift Pattern Aggression Mapping for the Hellcat actually has the highest aggression being 3, Sport Perf. I.e. the high part of the table for driver types 9-14 actually blends from 4 to 3 aggression.
Now once you know your aggression, you'll notice there are 5 tables for that given aggression. These correspond to your accel factor / hill grade essentially. On the ZF9, its labelled by the Shift ID youd see if you logged Shift ID, on the ZF8 we still have it labeled "Normal 0, Normal 1, Normal 2, etc."
Attachment 81474
But, by using the "Accel Factor" tables, you can see what your final factor will be. Unfortunately this isnt straight forward to describe as the inputs are based on measured G-Forces, estimated road grade, etc. But the gist is Accel Factor 0 is typically when you're going downhill, Accel Factor 1 is normal, 2,3,4 are proceeding amounts of aggression (heavy Gs) or uphill orientation. You can log Accel Factor directly as well to help actually know what you're currently in!
These are the standard, aggression based maps. As well, the ZF8/9 have 75 MORE maps for various other conditions, though usually not all of them are used. I've placed these in a non-aggression section, and it corresponds to stuff like Cruise Control, Rock Crawl modes, and so on. Which ID is used by the logic depends on what you're doing (Cruise Control), shift situation, accel factor, etc. It all depends on what that type is used for.
Attachment 81475
For example, if you have cruise control active with accel factor 1, this particular setup will use Shift Pattern/ID 35 no matter what shift situation you're in.
BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE.
Even once you know this final shift pattern ID, it can be remapped into another ID entirely by one final table. On the ZF8 we tried to show this with a bunch of comboboxes, but ZF9 and moving forward we'll just show the raw table.
Attachment 81476
For our example, Cruise Control, Accel Factor 1, we desired pattern 35. However, this final step maps Pattern 35 to Pattern 67. Pattern 35 is never even used!
I wish I could tell you this is easy or straightforward, but its not. It's a lot to swallow and understand. Transmissions are getting easily as complex as engine controllers, and the ZF especially so because its designed to be used in so many different applications by different OEMs. Because of this insane amount of configurability for the OEMs, the actual mapping itself is equally as configurable.
Hopefully if you read through this a few times and try to follow along with your calibration, you can start to understand it a little. If you have more questions, just ask, I'll try to answer them as I can!
Thank you.
That is more than I knew a few minutes ago!
Definitely a lot going on here. So am I to assume that the ZF8 has about the same number of tables as the ZF9, I just can't see them all yet?
Will this label update carry over to ZF6 (Ford Falcon)
Thanks Steven you get a sense of this reading about other manufacturers that use this trans. It was a little hard for me to explain but it cant get more clearer then this. The ZFs need to be looked at as a stand alone like they are and we as tuners need to see how it picks the maps. Demon def has a different adaptive strategy then the hellcats for sure.
I downloaded the beta version and I'm poking around in the scanner.
Searching channels for:
Clutch Shift Type
Situation
Aggression
Accel
Shift ID
Came up dry - but did find Trans Shift Mode that I wasn't logging before. Haven't actually logged that one yet to see what it does.
Application is a 6.4 Scat Pack, should(hah!) be very similar to the Hellcat trans and the tables in editor are the same.
If you're missing anything, get a ticket sent off to support with a read of your trans and we'll get it added!Quote:
Originally Posted by spoolboy
So I was just using it wrong. I didn't realize that it had to be connected to the car again to populate those new channels. Doh! I guess that's what re-polling means?
After some data-logging I'm only ever seeing the NORMAL clutch shift type, no matter what drive mode or how hard I'm driving it. In Drive, Auto-stick or Paddles, all drive modes tried, it always displays NORMAL clutch shift type. WOT, banging gears still NORMAL.
I assume that the clutch shift type also corresponds with the clutch shift pressure tables that I have in the red box?
Attachment 81534Attachment 81535
The modes - ECO, Default (=normal), Sport, and Track all seem to be matched up and displaying properly. I even tried it with the car un-tazed with only Scat Pack drive modes where it only had default and sport to see if there was a difference in the Scat Pack and SRT drive modes. There does not appear to be - the SRT modes seems to just add ECO and Track. SPORT = SPORT and DEFAULT = DEFAULT (normal).
I am seeing the different shift situations and shift IDs pop up. Sometimes it will flip through several shift IDs so fast you can't even walk the replay through them with the mouse without skipping some.
What a strange strategy.
Great info! After a number of reads, I think I've got the gist of it down.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven@HPTuners
Would it be accurate to say that for this example the aggression based piece is basically only differentiating a 'Track' mode then?
The final shift pattern mapping appears to override any Aggression 0-3 selection (patterns 0-3 map to 5, 5-8 map to 5, 10-13 map to 10, 15-18 map to 15, and 20-23 map to 20). Then, if we take a step backwards in the logic, this would imply that Driver Type 0-9 is all the same in the end as well (because those correlate to Aggression 0-3). One more step back, and that means that Shift Schedule 3 is really all that matters for selecting Aggression 4 (because that's the only way you can get to Driver Type 10-14). Therefore, Shift Schedule 3 and Accel Factor are the only things that impact the final Shift Pattern when it comes to the aggression based maps in this example. Is that a correct analysis here?