8L90E & a Mopar 440 Big Block - Early Days

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10-04-2018
Jacb

8L90E & a Mopar 440 Big Block - Early Days

I would very much like to fit a GM 8L90E behind my Mopar 440. The issue is that there is no stand alone TCU.

I am just starting my research into the feasibility of converting the 440 to EFI at the same time and using a GM ECU to control the engine. This could fool the transmissions into working behind the 440 since it will be using the GM ECU.

The LT4 & 8L90E crate motor combo would seem to make a good starting point. If I purchased an 809-19355174 LT4 controller package which includes an E-92 ECU .... that should work with 809-19371501 the 8L90E transmission package that comes with a compatible TCU.

This is only the seed of an idea at the moment and I am certain that most will say it can?t be done ... But can anyone tell me why it can?t be done? Perhaps somebody has all ready done this? Any thoughts?
10-05-2018
5FDP

The LT4 computer is used with a direct injection engine while using a specific torque model to control literally everything. It's pretty much the most advanced computer GM has right now for the V8 platform. The PCM and TCM function through can-bus and talk with each to make the appropriate decisions on how to give it fuel/spark/make it shift etc etc.

I just don't see any way that you could even come close to making your Mopar 440 function with such an advanced computer.

A standalone controller that would let you use the older 4L80e would be far easier. Some like the MS3 goldbox or maybe even Holley Dominator systems.
10-05-2018
Jacb

Hi 5FDP

I was thinking of using a Spearetch stand alone harness …. I believed this will avoid the can-bus issues?

A video showing the cable in action can be fond here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPYSLuHTGdQ

Sequential injection is the aim. Can you elaborate on the "torque model" issues?

No thank you for the 4L80E/6L idea ….. This will be a GT car built for long distance road use ad the 8 speed transmission is the aim.
10-05-2018
5FDP

Without some standalone TCM controller there is just no way to make what you want happen. You'd have to know the GM computers over the last 10-15 years to really understand how complex they have become. It's no longer the days of the old LS1 style computer where all it cared about was how much air or map pressure the engine was seeing to make a decision on fueling and spark timing.

These computers that rely strictly on the "torque model" take things from engine torque, predicted torque, transmission torque, driver demand, the electronic throttle and tons more stuff from various sensors just to function how it was designed. If someone was able to plop all those sensors, the fuel system and whatever else onto a 40+ year old engine design that was never designed around this newer technology, then maybe it could work but the reality is that will never happen.

If you want your eyes to bleed and maybe a few tears, you'll want to read this. This is from the E78 controller that came out in like 2011 or 2012 I think and when the newer E92 came out in 2014 it was even more advanced because of direct injection.

https://www.hptuners.com/help/vcm_ed...vanced_e78.htm
10-07-2018
Jacb

Quote:

Originally Posted by 5FDP

If someone was able to plop all those sensors, the fuel system and whatever else onto a 40+ year old engine design that was never designed around this newer technology, then maybe it could work ?..

If you want your eyes to bleed and maybe a few tears, you'll want to read this. This is from the E78 controller that came out in like 2011 or 2012 I think and when the newer E92 came out in 2014 it was even more advanced because of direct injection.

https://www.hptuners.com/help/vcm_ed...vanced_e78.htm

Thanks 5FDP ?. You have given me a lot to think about ?. In truth I had no idea about the E92 being so far removed from the likes of the Holley Dominator ECU etc.

I now need to do some research ?. Read some background books and talk to some E92 exerts. Any recommendations?

I am curious as to how many inputs the E92 actually has? Time will tell.

There is one guy in Australia who's running a GM ECU behind a Mopar BB 440 and a 4L80E ?. I will try and find out which ECU he is using.
10-08-2018
DrLoch

Myself, I would give up on the notion of trying to integrate a E92 into your project. I would contact Bigstuff and ask them
10-08-2018
Jacb

Veee8 once said: "You could research is if the E76 ECM out of the 2500 and 3500 trucks with the port injected 6.0 from about 2013+ would communicate with the T87 trans controller".

Does any one know if the E76 could communicate with the T87 ?

The TCM's in question are #24284058 & #24284064
10-09-2018
tunerpro

I commented on a different thread about this the other day.

https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...-nice-with-l9h
10-10-2018
Jacb

Quote:

Originally Posted by tunerpro

I commented on a different thread about this the other day.

https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...-nice-with-l9h

Thanks for that ….. Yes a lot of people would like to sort this issue out.
10-10-2018
Jacb

Here is a guy who wanted to make a home made controller for an HF 5HP24. His interest was to convert a vehicle fitted with this transmission to Electric drive. The point is that the process could in theory be repeated with the HF 8HP90 which is a very similar transmission (in electrical terms). If it could work for them the why not the 8L90E? Yes I know there are hundreds of problems to overcome, but "where there is a will there is a way" …. you may find this series of videos interesting if nothing else http://www.evbmw.com/index.php/side-...box-controller he even made his ECU program available free: https://github.com/damienmaguire/5HP24-Controller Food for thought I hope. Ohh if anyone is interested he can be contacted here: http://www.evbmw.com/index.php/evbmw-webshop/evbmw-serv
10-10-2018
tunerpro

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jacb

Here is a guy who wanted to make a home made controller for an HF 5HP24. His interest was to convert a vehicle fitted with this transmission to Electric drive. The point is that the process could in theory be repeated with the HF 8HP90 which is a very similar transmission (in electrical terms). If it could work for them the why not the 8L90E? Yes I know there are hundreds of problems to overcome, but "where there is a will there is a way" …. you may find this series of videos interesting if nothing else http://www.evbmw.com/index.php/side-...box-controller he even made his ECU program available free: https://github.com/damienmaguire/5HP24-Controller Food for thought I hope. Ohh if anyone is interested he can be contacted here: http://www.evbmw.com/index.php/evbmw-webshop/evbmw-serv

It is definitely possible, even if you have to develop your own TCM from scratch to make it work, it can be done. I've seen this done on the earlier 4L60E/4L80E transmissions (by TCI maybe?), not sure if anybody has done this on the newer transmissions like the 6L80E, the challenge with those (and the 8L90) is there's more transmission control in the electronics than there was in the earlier transmissions.

What would be more feasible would be to reverse engineer the ECM to TCM coms protocol and simulate the ECM's messages to the transmission, then you could use the GM TCM to run the whole thing.
10-11-2018
Jacb

Quote:

Originally Posted by tunerpro

What would be more feasible would be to reverse engineer the ECM to TCM coms protocol and simulate the ECM's messages to the transmission, then you could use the GM TCM to run the whole thing.

Sounds like a sound, but large project ..... but before contemplating that I have a question:

Are there any GM ECU's that can communicate with a GM T87a TCU that doesn't use direct injection?

Eg Somebody suggested the E80?
10-11-2018
tunerpro

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jacb

Sounds like a sound, but large project ..... but before contemplating that I have a question:

Are there any GM ECU's that can communicate with a GM T87a TCU that doesn't use direct injection?

Eg Somebody suggested the E80?

E80 can communicate with the T87(A), but the E80 is DI also, unfortunately. The only "latest generation" MPFI ECM I can think of is the E84, which is used in the Spark I believe, but it does not use a T87(A) TCM.
10-14-2018
Jacb

Quote:

Originally Posted by tunerpro

What would be more feasible would be to reverse engineer the ECM to TCM coms protocol and simulate the ECM's messages to the transmission, then you could use the GM TCM to run the whole thing.

You may have a point tunerpro ..... what data does the ECU send the T87a? Obviously it is in coded format but what are the variables that the T87a actually requires to function?

I note that PCS now has a stand alone controller that can run the 8L90E - but first your have to build an accurate torque map look up table in the controller. I don’t think in that setup a T87a is used at all.