TSP Stage 3 cam Tuning help topic

Hello there !

I finished the installation of my texas speed Stage 3 Camshaft last week and started my tuning today. I'm mainly a beginner, previously tuned the car with basic bolt ons (headers, Intake, MSD manifold and ported TB)

My goal is to create a topic where I could ask questions along my tuning process, and not create several topics

After my first day of street tuning (I plan to rent a dyno like I did previously, but I want to street tune first) , I have some questions :

- I did my MAF calibration on my previous tuning. Do I need to do it again with a cam ? I don't think so because my MAF is the same but I wanted to ask... Honestly the car runs fine. Still need to tune the virtual torque for idle because my rpm are jumping a little too much and solved my hot start issue with your help already.

- I noticed that despite disabling the variable cam in the airflow, I was still getting spark advance from variable camshaft. Looking at the logs timing was going up and down very fast I think because of that....I zeroed the VCP spark advance when I got home and plan to add more in the base table. Is it the correct way to do ? My VVT is locked at 0 degree mechanically.

- Even if its early, do you guys have any tips or strategies to increase mid range with a big cam ? So far midrange is weak (3000-5000) despite descent timing...When I look at dyno sheets torque is good starting at 3000, which is not the case on mine

- I read that there a good gain playing with SOI table also, I need to look into that. Any advices on that part ? Assuming only way to see will be on the dyno ?


Positive point is that this point driveability is already fairly good though.

Thanks

Alex

- I have the opinion that if you have a stock location, untouched MAF then re calibrating the MAF curve from stock is a "work around". To me the stock calibration from GM is accurate enough to know that a certain Hz value is equivalent to a certain airflow. So in my opinion anytime you change this your MAF airflow reported will no longer be an accurate mass flow rate, most people don't care about accurate numbers they just want to get it running good. Despite this I have adjusted my MAF with my cam and heads change on my LT1, it wasn't too far off. Once I got my VVE lowered in the lower RPMs it fixed most of my lower speed driveability issues without touching the MAF calibration, I have a stage 1/2 cam. I still have bouncing timing at idle which is causing the annoying bucking at low speed parking lot driving and idle so far messing with torque reserve, immediate and predicted constants, and lowering the VT table in the idle range hasn't helped. You can force the timing up through the MIN spark table, but this is of course not the right way to do it and it seemed to not really help either, the timing still bounces around just does not go that low anymore.

-I tried setting the number of phased camshafts to "none" in ECM 277 and it caused weird problems and AFR was all over the place. I would change that table back to stock and just zero out all the commanded cam position tables. I zeroed out the VCP spark table and added it back to my base spark.

-I'm not sure how you are going to increase midrange besides maybe adding some timing in the lower rpm areas to make up for the lower airmass. I don't notice any difference between stock and my 228/236-114 111 .635/.635 cam.

-I haven't really messed with the SOI table, I would think you would just need to increase timing throughout the whole table since the cam change has increased duration through the whole table range. It should just be a matter of calculating valve events based on your cam.

All right guys...

So far

- Disabled DOD and VCT (from airflow AND spark)

- Startup cold/Hot/base idle tuning. Still adjustments to do on the torque table, but Idle is fluctuating 30-40rpm so far.

- Then I deactivated DFCO/O2 sensors to start :

- MAF calibration done. My low range was a little bit off, but high range not really. I'm spot on around 1% or less on the whole range
- Speed density calibration done. Most of it is pretty good, it is very long to adjust and the virtual VE table coefficient calculation has a very annoying bug where when you calculate coefficients it randomly put crazy high or low values (-50,000) in some cells. You need to find tricks to slighly change values so it does not mess things up on next calculation... Anyway, after something like 12 datalogs I'm fairly good.

- PE table modified to reach 0.86-0.87 Lambda at WOT

- Engine cutoff at 7000 rpm and extreme cutoff at 7100

- Spark base table modified to add the missing degrees from VCP


So far in my datalogs I'm around 26-27deg of timing in the 3000-3700 rpm range then around 23 from 3700 to 6000 then 22 from 6000 to 7000rpm. No knock retard with Lambda at 0.86

No torque management intervention so far.

Questions :

- What timing do you usually run in the 4000-7000rpm on pump gas ? How much more timing to expect in E85 ? 2-3deg more ?

- Is there any tricks to boost mid range ? So far the engine is very slightly weaker than headers/CAI/MSD Mani/Ported TB/Tune from 3000-5000, and I can feel a significant bump of torque/power around 5200 up to 7000rpm. I'm gonna rent a dyno soon, it will be easier to visualize, but I'd like to come prepared with tweaks to try. Seems to me the car has more timing in it in the mid range and probably up top also. In fact from a butt dyno perspective, the car has a lot of torque from 2800 to 3000, then seems to struggle a little in particular in the 3000-4000 range, where I have the butt dyno feeling that I have more torque at 2800-3000 than I have from 3000-4000. Graphs don't really show that though.

Recent Dyno charts I see for the same setup show already more than 400 wheel ft/lbs at 3000rpm and peak torque (470 ft/lbs) around 4700-5000 rpm. Old dyno charts from 2014 showed peak torque at 5200 rpm and significant loss below 4500 rpm. That means there have been a learning curse since then to compensate torque loss in mid range. Just need your help to figure out what changed in this tuning :) Probably a lot of you know

So far the difference in performance is a little bit disapointing...0.3s better from 62-106mph in 3rd gear...

Thanks

Alex

Edit : TSP Stage 3 Cam specs : .645 .635 lift 235 Intake 239 Exhaust @ .050 116 LSA and 112 ICL

Attached current tune and a log with a pull in 3rd around the 3:30 mark

Attachment 97058

Attachment 97059

So I am in about the exact same situation you are in now, and I feel the exact same way all this work and money for basically no improvement

I don't know of any secrets to make more low end power besides what you already mentioned, you can probably bump up timing to around 28 in the lower range where VE is lower, reduce it down to maybe around 24 at peak torque, then ramp it back up to 28 at high rpms.

I completely agree to sometimes if you hit a gear right it just seems like the motor just makes a bunch of noise and you don't really feel much acceleration, I attribute this 100% to variance in the butt dyno.

And as far as the coefficient calculations go, I don't think there is necessarily a bug in HP tuners software but its more the fact that we are trying to populate almost random, discontinuous data with all kinds of inflection points and peaks and valleys. Then HP Tuners has to try to curve fit what we just put into what appears to be a 2nd order equation. I would expect some instability in the coefficient generator. I think what we need is better filtering techniques when logging wideband feedback. I also never see this mentioned at all either but we are trying to calculate airflow and airmass by reading combustion feedback, there is a lot of variables thrown in between when the air is metered all the way until the excess oxygen is sensed in the exhaust. I have tried experiementing with filters that only allow good, steady state lambda errors through where timing is stable and near optimum. We know wideband feedback is going to be worth nothing when timing is at negative 10 degrees, were obviously going to read rich there from incomplete combustion.

Also do you still have the stock cats? If so, are they still working with your cam at idle. I got mine tuned within +/-5% at idle and it smells like I took the cats off, I guess we just can't expect a cam with any amount of significant overlap to work with cats.

Also my idle is fluctuating too, you can watch the timing bouncing up and down from 25 to 5 degrees which makes it rough at idle and its especially bad when at a rolling idle with your foot on the brake it will buck and chuggle back and forth enough to where someone driving next to you thinks you are doing it on purpose with the brake pedal. This may also just be something we have to live with with a cam.

I am going to try to look at your tune file and log and maybe try to run your tune with mine and see how it does.

My idle timing is also boucing back from 5 to 25 deg. I will need to work on my torque table around idle to see if it helps. Engine torque is bouncing a lot following this timing, sometimes going negative. I did not have the time to work on it yet. I have American Racing long tube headers with high flow cats on my X pipe and the cars smells strong, though it is better since I tuned my MAF and SD. Before I was smelling the exhaust in the car at stop signs. I don't anymore.

I would like to work on the SOI, I'm pretty sure the gains down low are coming from there. As far as timing, 28deg above 6000 rpm is E85 maxed out to me...Pretty sure if I can get 24 from 6000 to 7000 I will be lucky... But perhaps I'm wrong and a cam allows way more timing...

I would like to see feedback from Higgs / Ben Charles and consorts, they probably know...

Renting the dyno Thursday afternoon. We'll see what I get and manage to do to boost this midrange.

Have you messed with the Virtual torque tables? could be limiting TB opening or cutting timing back to stay within the torque range.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dangrebel

Have you messed with the Virtual torque tables? could be limiting TB opening or cutting timing back to stay within the torque range.

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Yes. And my throttle is not closing anywhere. I still tried to change the table it did not change anything.

I tore the engine appart last week end, my timing is perfect as well as the cam phaser lockout.

I did all of that for nothing...

TSP tells me they degree all their cam from the factory and it is true looking at their production process. I had the cam degreeing report in the box when I got it. I don't see what is wrong.

I'm still putting a new cam phaser this week end and putting everything back together. I'll see if there is any changes but it is unlikely since I found nothing wrong.

I'm wondering if there is any kind of issue with the MSD intake manifold robbing a ton of torque down low. I'm at the point of buying an OEM intake manifold to try. But the MSD Manifold with a cam is not a new combination, it should work...

See my dyno graph from last Thursday. It tried everything...SOI, fuel, timing, torque management with virtual torque tables... In red was FBO with exactly same config except the cam.

I only start to make more power above 5100. Still gets a respectable 508 WHP on a Mustang dyno (probably 530-540WHP on a dynojet minimum), but below 4500 is really shitty.

Attachment 97306

ok I'm a beginner also but you have a lot of timing from 2400-3600. I only have 19. Maybe with your cam you can run more. Less is safer than more.

By removing timing in this area I lose even more torque. Number from the dyno showing

19 if you are stock is on your base table. You need to add your modifiers. I have a stock 17 SS 1LE as a daily and it runs 25-26 deg all rpm range

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sachs

By removing timing in this area I lose even more torque. Number from the dyno showing

19 if you are stock is on your base table. You need to add your modifiers. I have a stock 17 SS 1LE as a daily and it runs 25-26 deg all rpm range

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25-26* on pump gas, or e85? And with static knock still on or turned off? I found I could only get about 21* at peak airmass (.91-.92g) and could maybe get 24 at 6400 on pump 93. Might've had knock sensors at stock levels though, cant remember. Went to E awhile ago

Have any of you figured out your problem yet? A camshaft is my next wish list item for my GENV pickup and i'm trying to learn what happened with your guys problem so i know how things go. I have been researching a long time and Goat Rope garage on youtube has very detailed videos on the genV torque modeling and specifically about idle and how the torque affects it. Check him out if you haven't already.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MrFixIt86

Have any of you figured out your problem yet? A camshaft is my next wish list item for my GENV pickup and i'm trying to learn what happened with your guys problem so i know how things go. I have been researching a long time and Goat Rope garage on youtube has very detailed videos on the genV torque modeling and specifically about idle and how the torque affects it. Check him out if you haven't already.

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I tried what he said and none of it worked for my situation.

Hi Guys,

So I checked everything again, my timing, replaced my cam phaser : still the same.

I think my issue comes to the fact that I did the cam without the heads...My next step will be to buy the TSP ported heads. This is the only thing I see. They say ported heads improve significantly the power under the curve. All the dyno I saw were guys with cam and heads. this is the only difference.

So you are saying you have completely stock heads? I was thinking you had ported stock ones. TSP ported mine also and milled them 15 thousands. I also have a stock ported intake and stock ported TB. Going back through the air flow numbers before and after the cam and heads and it's not looking so good for me. I know the feeling it's frustrating with how much work it is to put a can in and get basically nothing. I think this is why people always get super charger or turbo, but then again my butt Dyno always reads extremely low haha

Try more timing. My 1LE with bolt ons and 93 made the most power 25-26 degrees across the rpm range. You're backwards with less timing as rpm increase. Unless you have poor quality premium fuel, 27 degrees below 3500 ramping down to 25 at peak torque then ramp it back in to 27 by 6000.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cmitchell17

So you are saying you have completely stock heads? I was thinking you had ported stock ones. TSP ported mine also and milled them 15 thousands. I also have a stock ported intake and stock ported TB. Going back through the air flow numbers before and after the cam and heads and it's not looking so good for me. I know the feeling it's frustrating with how much work it is to put a can in and get basically nothing. I think this is why people always get super charger or turbo, but then again my butt Dyno always reads extremely low haha

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Yep, my heads are stock (but PRC Springs and rocker arms trunion upgrade).

I run 91 and at 6800 with 23.5deg I get sometimes 10 deg of knock retard...I lowered it to 21 deg at 6800 and it's fine... Crappy fuel where I live