NAG1/A580 Part Throttle Shift Scheduling Table Tuning

Time for another update.
Heard back from HP tuners support and they added a set of shift tables matching the values of what I saw in bluegoat06's screen shot to 4.5.1417 Beta.
Long story short, those tables didnt solve the part-throttle shift tuning issues. Bugger! :banghead:

However, I think I may have determined and confirmed how the actual part-throttle shift strategy works in these NAG1 boxes, well at least in the Jeep JK platform.

To try and figure this out I made the shift speed under each pedal breakpoint the same, thus eliminating the influence of the pedal % and therefore only relying on the trans output shaft speed to command the shift.
I also copied the tables over so that the same table in each shift mode (Normal/Performance/Winter/Unknown) was exactly the same eg all the 1-2 upshift tables had the same pedal breakpoints and shift speeds etc. On top of that I disabled the performance driving factor switch so no table blending could occur.
Attachment 97140

Even with this very simplified shifting strategy I found that the shifts would still occur in somewhat random fashion! However I managed to correlate virtually every shift in my 20min road test (within +/- 15rpm of the shift speed) from the datalog.
Im now 99% confident that the upshift/downshift speed offset does infact offset the shift speed commanded in the part-throttle shift tables eg the upshift flag is set and a shift is commanded only once the commanded shift speed + upshift speed offset >= output shaft speed.

Here's a good example of the 3rd gear "hang" issue that Ive been struggling with.
Attachment 97141
From the shift tables this should occur at an output shaft speed of 1375rpm. However the upshift flag does not get set until the output shaft speed reaches nearly double that at 2461rpm! The upshift offset at this point is 1116rpm but due to the data capture rate (10ms) and refresh rate for the TCM check for this PID (~250ms) the value of 1087rpm needs to be used. This corresponds to the slight discontinuity in the upshift offset trace.

In this case the actual shift speed now equals: 1375 (commanded from table) + 1087 (upshift offset) = 2462rpm, which pretty well matches the output shaft speed of 2461rpm when the actual upshift flag is set!
Using this method I managed to correlate the error in shift speeds (error = output shaft speed - shift speed) to the upshift/downshift speed offset for a set of 10 up/down shifts, picked at random from the datalog. If the upshift/downshift offset speed is added/subtracted to/from the commanded shift speed then everything matches to within +/-12rpm of the actual output shaft speed.
Attachment 97142
Note that when the offset speed = 0, the shift flag gets triggered when the output shaft speed virtually matches the commanded shift speed. Only then do the shifts occur at the exact output shaft speed commanded in the tables (as you would want).

Now the question is: What factors influence this offset speed? This needs to be known to be able to predictably tune these part throttle shift tables.
In the 3rd gear hanging example, the upshift offset speed only begins to drop once I lift off the throttle. It also shows a discontinuity just as a shift state is flagged.
From these influences I would have to guess that the "Term Coefficients" under "Shift General" have something to do with it.

Ill have a play with these coefficients but ideally it would be great for the engineering team who dissembled the code and wrote the HP platform for the NAG1 to chime in with the underlaying equations to determine how to "tune"/control or zero the upshift/downshift speed offset. There also seems to be a PID missing that should lump all the coefficients in the a single factor :confused:

Datalog and tune attached

Cheers,
Dan

Attachment 97146
Attachment 97147

Still at a loss with this issue.

I started making large changes to the Term Coefficients and Decay Divisors under the Shift General tab in an attempt to control and minimize this Upshift/Downshift Offset Speed parameter. I tried both maximizing and minimizing the the Term Coefficients and Decay Divisors but doing so or any combination of max/min does not seem to have much, if any affect on the Upshift/Downshift Offset Speed. The explanation of these variables relate them to the "Driving Factor". Is this the "Aggression Blend" PID?

After many hours of datalogging it seems that this Upshift/Downshift Offset Speed parameter somewhat randomly changes value, thus any effort to "tune" the part throttle shift scheduling tables will result with the desired shift speed being offset by this parameter and therefore, the actual shift speed will not match that of the table. It is only when the Upshift/Downshift Offset Speed = 0 that the shift speeds match the desired speeds in the tables.

In extreme cases, such as my "3rd gear hang" example, the Upshift Offset Speed can reach such a high value that the 3rd -> 4th gear shift is effectively blocked as the shift will only be commanded once the actual output shaft speed > shift speed + upshift speed offset. This results in stupidly high engine RPMs for no reason eg 4000+rpm at low throttle openings (~15%) even though the desired shift speed translates to engine rpms of ~2500 or so. In most cases lifting off the throttle will decay this upshift offset speed parameter and allow the shift to occur but this is a serious annoyance!

This Upshift/Downshift Offset Speed parameter is really messing with these shifts. How do we control, "tune" or disable it so we can gain full control over these part throttle shifts?

Anyone have any other ideas or inputs?

Cheers,
Dan

Hello all.

My first post on this forum. I have zero experience from dodge but i have done some tuning on egs52 in mercedes diesel. There ecu send throttle position value to egs52 which is used on those tables. And for that there is "inverse driving map" in ecu where is pedal % and axis are engine rpm and injected duantity. So pedal value to egs52 is not real value or same what ecu uses. Maybe similar thing here?

Have you thought about disabling the torque management on the engine side to see what happens?

What about resetting all adaptives?

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Originally Posted by Juuso124

Hello all.

My first post on this forum. I have zero experience from dodge but i have done some tuning on egs52 in mercedes diesel. There ecu send throttle position value to egs52 which is used on those tables. And for that there is "inverse driving map" in ecu where is pedal % and axis are engine rpm and injected duantity. So pedal value to egs52 is not real value or same what ecu uses. Maybe similar thing here?

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This is rather interesting Juuso124. I wonder if the OS's are the same as in these FCA vehicles? Do you have a read from a Mercedes with a egs52 that I could have a look at?

To try and figure this all out I'm currently running simplified shift scheduling tables, where all the shift speeds are set to the same value (see post #21). In doing so the pedal position shouldn't have any bearing on when the shifts occur. Doing this I was able to correlate the actual shift speed to the desired shift speed +/- the upshift/downshift offset speed.

I still need to check if the pedal break points make sense once this upshift/downshift offset speed can be controlled

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Originally Posted by Moparmatty

Have you thought about disabling the torque management on the engine side to see what happens?

What about resetting all adaptives?

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Every time after a TCM reflash I use the scanner and do a trans initialize and reset the trans adaptives. Don't know if its required but this is the same procedure I've followed every time.

Torque management on the engine side? Any table/switches in particular?

HP support have gone a bit quiet of late so I'm willing to give any suggestions a go.

Just want to be able to actually tune when this trans shifts..

I read egs52 with Ktag and modify file in Winols. I looked dodge file (downloaded from somewhere) in vcmsuite and managed to find same maps for mercedes in winols. I have understood that A580 is same tranny what MB calls 722.6. Also example porsche files are allmost identical to mb so i think if dodge tcu is readed with then it would be similar also.

If this problem is in pedal value, then changes needs to be done in ecu, not in tcu. Maybe hptuners cannot find this map in ecu? Then you need to find it from hexdump in winols or similar.

Ecuconnection.com and there egs52 thread you can find many mercedes maps if interested. I havent found any dodge maps from internet. Maybe anyone havent read them with ktag to get hexdump file?

Thanks for the info Juuso124! I'll browse through that forum and check out the EGS52 thread. You might be correct about his bizarre calculated pedal value, however when I effectively eliminate this pedal variable (by making all the shifts speeds the same) this upshift/downshift offset speed variable still messes with the actual shift speeds. I believe that once control over this variable has been achieved then its time to look at the randomness associated with the pedal variable.

HaasExp, any updates? I'm having the same trans shift issues after installing an Hamburger SC, and was reading through your thread with anticipation of my potential solutions...

Hi pmj. Unfortunately no updates as of yet but I am still actively datalogging and attempting to make sense of the PT shifting weirdness.

What vehicle do you have?

Can you share a datalog of your PT shifting issues including the Upshift/Downshift offset parameters? It seems to be these parameters that are messing up the PT shift scheduling from the analysis I have done so far. Try and set it up your logging with the parameters as I have in the screenshot in post #21. Set all the polling intervals to 10ms.

I have a 2015 JKU. Seeing the exact same problem.
I dropped most of the output shaft speeds 25% or so (in both up and down shift tables) and am much happier with the daily drive, but I still get gears hanging due to the offset. I?ll work on getting a log.
Been years since I used HP tuners and I?m not very efficient...

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Originally Posted by HaasExp

Hi pmj. Unfortunately no updates as of yet but I am still actively datalogging and attempting to make sense of the PT shifting weirdness.

What vehicle do you have?

Can you share a datalog of your PT shifting issues including the Upshift/Downshift offset parameters? It seems to be these parameters that are messing up the PT shift scheduling from the analysis I have done so far. Try and set it up your logging with the parameters as I have in the screenshot in post #21. Set all the polling intervals to 10ms.

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I've been following this thread for awhile as I also have a customer with a 2012 JK that hangs 2nd gear terribly. I think the shift offset is being influenced by the increased torque of the supercharger under moderate load. The vehicle is confused because it's seeing much more torque so it holds the gear until the torque drops. I played with the Torque/Airflow Factor table and did get a result with shifts occurring sooner, but not acceptably. I fooled the computer into thinking it was creating less torque for more airflow. In my opinion there is a parameter missing.

Here's my next idea: I have a tune file for a NAG1 Procharged Challenger making ~700lbf torque that shifts perfectly. I'm going to change the shift points to my desired JK points and flash the complete TCU tune from the Challenger. It may have higher torque limits, or other data that cannot be seen. I'll let you know what happens.

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Originally Posted by evolmotorsprt

In my opinion there is a parameter missing.

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This is what I have concluded also. There must be a set of parameters that influences this "Shift Offset Speed" parameter. If they could be found or even disabled, this trans could be made to shift predictably every time at the tuner's specified shift points.

Would be good to see a log from the vehicle you are currently tuning in terms of the shift offset speed parameter and also of the NAG1 Procharged Challenger. Might be able to find something between them to help the situation.

I tried to alter the shift points on my 2016 JK several years ago, with no luck.

The only thing I found is that after programming the TCM and then doing a part throttle pull it would shift exactly according to the tables. Then if I stopped and did another part throttle pull without changing anything it would not shift according to the tables. So perhaps adaptive learning is being used.

For testing I set the upshift points to 10 20 30 40 mph and it was easy to see when it worked. BTW it would be nice if the software would do the shaft rpm to speed calculation rather than me using a spreadsheet.

I also had no luck disabling the WOT shift in autostick. About 100 times per trip I end up in a battle with the transmission on a long grade when out of autostick it will downshift to 4th, I switch to autostick and shift to 5th where it is happy for a while, maintaining speed, and then it will downshift to 3rd despite being in autostick. Raising the WOT helped but this is fairly annoying.

Given my lack of success on the above two points I then looked at the TCC pressures, with more success. If you graph the upshift / downshift speeds (or rpms) vs TCC lockup there are some oddities. You can feel these driving where the TCC lock up point is sometimes just over the shift point and sometimes just under.

Also with the regular shift tables the upshift and downshift overlap in places. eg 2-3 is at 30mph but 3-2 is at 36 mph @ 80% throttle. The upshift and downshift offset take care of it but it is not right.

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Originally Posted by xennex

The only thing I found is that after programming the TCM and then doing a part throttle pull it would shift exactly according to the tables. Then if I stopped and did another part throttle pull without changing anything it would not shift according to the tables. So perhaps adaptive learning is being used.

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Yes I have also noticed this. There must be some timer that activates these offsets as well. You can shut the car down, restart and get a few shifts in that perfectly match the tables.
Then things start to drift.

If you log the upshift/downshift speed offset you will find that it is 0 for the first few changes after restarting the vehicle (thus the shifts match the tables perfectly), then it starts to creep in and the shifts are all over the place again.

Quite frustrating!

Can you get data with more pressure and torque variables? I'd bet money that the root of your problem is airflow adaptions from the blower offsetting the value that determines shift speed. This would be why it's fine after a restart and fine at WOT: after a restart, the adaption hasn't taken place yet so its fine until it adapts and accurate at WOT because the adaption disables and just runs the stored baro up to whatever your calibration clip is.

I'm stock so no blower effects. Now I have time to look at the issue I can't find the MPVI.

From memory I disabled 'Perf Driving' 532 and then set the shift tables for 10,20,30 and 40 mph. Doing this it would shift exactly at 10, 20, 30 and 40 mph at part throttle, but only once. I did try changing the shift torque adapt 46563 but do not think it made any difference.

So what is the upshift/downshift speed offset? To me they're calculated from some other tables / inputs. In places they inch up and down; in other places they jump to 4700 rpm, presumably to stop an upshift at that point.

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Originally Posted by smokeshow

Can you get data with more pressure and torque variables? I'd bet money that the root of your problem is airflow adaptions from the blower offsetting the value that determines shift speed. This would be why it's fine after a restart and fine at WOT: after a restart, the adaption hasn't taken place yet so its fine until it adapts and accurate at WOT because the adaption disables and just runs the stored baro up to whatever your calibration clip is.

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I can get this data but as xennex pointed out this also happens when stock which I can also confirm as I'm currently back to the factory stock tune as I'm servicing and modifying my blower. So it's not directly related to the airflow values with the blower as large upshift/downshift speed offsets still exist that mess up the shift scheduling even when bog stock with the factory tune.

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Originally Posted by xennex

So what is the upshift/downshift speed offset? To me they're calculated from some other tables / inputs. In places they inch up and down; in other places they jump to 4700 rpm, presumably to stop an upshift at that point.

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This is also where I'm stuck.

I fully agree that they are being calculated from some other tables/inputs. You can see step changes in their value when you lift off the pedal, apply the brake and when the upshift/downshift flags are set etc.

Almost like something similar to the "term coefficients" parameters under the "Performance Driving Factor" (however these don't seem to effect the offsets speeds btw).