(Coyote Swap)2011 F-150/6R80 Surging and throttle staying closed durin shifts

I'm battling a throttle surge issue at partial throttle accel (probably when going into boost). I have big IPC errors, but can't track down if its spark, throttle tables, or torque tables related. As far the throttle staying closed on shifts, I'm not sure if this is a problem in the auto trans tables or something else, but the throttle is staying closed for about 1.5 seconds during the shifts. I have someone helping me learn a little bit but I'm trying to make a drag event in less than two weeks and want to at least fix my throttle closing on shift problem. I'm new to tuning and want to be able to make changes at the track myself and none of the well known tuners will help, that is why i'm doing this myself and you might see huge issues in my tune potentially. I have been reading the coyote cookbook and the tuning school ford beginners book. By chance, could anyone take a look at this and help point me in the right direction to resolve these issues? A little background on my setup:

Its a coyote swapped 2003 Mustang using the 2011 F-150/6R80 and PATS deleted PCM (not control pack).
I based my tune off the roush file floating around and made changes.
It has 11-14 mustang intake cams
VMP TVS 2.3 Gen 2
VMP Twin 67 Throttle Body
Roush 2015 Intake (110mm)
ID1050X injectors
Returnless fuel system set at 58psi
ARH headers
Mustang oil pump with upgraded gears

Here is the current tune and log files, one is a WOT shifting one and the other is the part throttle problems:
Attachment 94266
Attachment 94267
Attachment 94268

Period 226 is higher than period 220 in your MAF transfer.

Raise your temperature based cutoff RPM from 7000 to 7850 under fuel/ DFCO.

Raise your calc MAP max to 31 PSI.

Then your borderline fuel lambda correction table is set up pretty strange. This table applies all the time, not just at WOT. When not in PE you are having it pull 10* of spark out, for no reason. This means as it enters PE, its adding that 10* back in. Its a good way to cause tip in detonation or part throttle to have a surge.

Thank you Murfie!

That fixed my throttle closing on shifts and my tipin issues. However the surging still exists. Here is the updated tune and log if you wouldn't mind letting me know if you think my surging it spark related, torque table related, or ETC related. Do you think its spark timing related?

Attachment 94298
Attachment 94303

Speed density tables.

Here's what the calculator values converted to VE100% looks like for your MP 6 and 7. As you can see there's no blend and just a huge jump from the 60's-70's to 90+% when you go into boost. This is the percentage of the driver demand torque you will be commanding. you can see how this large jump would cause a surge. Blend your SD tables as best you can. It doesn't take huge changes.

Attachment 94312

Attachment 94313

Make it something more like this to give throttle a more linear feel.

Attachment 94314

This may be extreme, and people tend to feel like they have to press the throttle too far, its just the general direction to go.

Best way to go is as I always say, put a sensor on it, and make load to MAP relationship accurate. This way you dont have to worry about what it does to your Fuel or air models.

Murfie,

I've gone into the calculator and tried different ways of blending or changing end values and blending between and I can't even seem to get results like you posted. It there anything that can help me understand what I need to do here? Neither of tuning books really go into this enough for me to understand. Thanks

Sometimes, with MAF based cars, it makes more sense when you take your quad, slope, and offset, and turn it in to MAP based on load and RPM. You'll see the obvious. Some spots were never meant to calculate higher than baro MAP.

In this sheet I offset the absolute inHg value that calculated MAP usually comes out as, by 27 inHg which is your specific default baro in your tune. I did this to distinguish what the ECU will think vaccum and boost values are in your TB models ETC vacuum axis. in boost you want it to be at the lowest ETC vacuum value, and the effective area to be growing from the delta above baro values in the SD. This should make it easier to see what coefficients you may want to address based on RPM. It's usually right at that baro value that the load values in the calculator need to be moved closer to the cells next to them, then recalculating the coefficients brings things to a more reasonable transition.

Attachment 94342

An example of your MP7 and what to look for in the calculator.

Attachment 94343

I played around with your excel sheet making changes that get rid of those spots that aren't designed to go above baro. But I do not like making changes that I cannot understand why I'm making them. Another part that baffles me as to why the roush tune works just fine in the roush cars with the SD tables like this. Is it because they have additional tables I don't have since i'm not using the roush strategy?

Here is the one where I made changes that look better to me, but I don't really know what the affect is going to be or if I even did it right. Did I make it worse?

Attachment 94377

Here is an additional log that is from the tune v6.57.2 that has way more throttle surging if it helps
Attachment 94378

I suggest you read the Sticky in the ecoboost section on speed density. to fully understand what you are doing, to know the goal you would need to install a MAP sensor and correct your calculated MAP.

If you read the coyote cookbook, you may remember the section where it talks about the cylair anticipation/ multiplier and the speed density. It says something along the lines of most just set it to all 0's, while others dial it in. Its not very clear what is being referred to here. I believe it is the quadratic coefficient values. Older fords only used slope and offset. Also as stated in the SD sticky, the quadratic equation is orthogonal, meaning you can 0 the quad value and still get a good fit from the simpler equation. This is probably what the Roush/Whipple tunes fall back too as certain times and why they work. This is also another simple option you can do. As you can see from applying it in that sheet I posted, it would still work ok, if not better. It just may think you are at a much higher MAP for a given load than you really are. You wouldn't be able to know how to fix calculated MAP until you logged an actual MAP sensor.

You are on an OS that thinks one side of the throttle body is the barometric pressure and the other side is MAP, when in reality one side is barometric pressure and the other is the supercharger inlet pressure. Your throttle body model is disagreeing with what is happening as far as airflow. That model is not wrong, you just have to fix the barometric pressure to MAP relationship, and this will correct the throttle body model by correcting the ETC vacuum. When MAP goes above Baro, you have negative ETC vacuum, the delta above baro table allows the effective area of the throttle body to grow larger than what is in the model. When MAP is higher than Baro, you don't want the throttle blade moving to correct the airflow to MAP relationship. If the model doesnt think MAP is higher than Baro, this is what will happen.

The other thing I think I over looked here is you say return style fuel system with regulator set at 58PSI. Is that base pressure, with the reference hooked up to the MAP, which your injector flow rate multiplier tables suggest or with it not hooked up just what pressure it holds all the time? If you don't have the regulator reference hooked up, just use the stock style injector data. I think your rail pressures can stay how they are, another thing that you would really need a sensor for most accuracy. You will then have to redo your MAF transfer. Once corrected your load should calculate the correct MAP much closer to actual MAP, not .5-.6 load coming out as barometric pressure.

I adjusted it to 58psi with the reference disconnected, then I connected the reference back up.

you probably need to adjust torque limit and clutch protection

solved?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by txtailtorcher

solved?

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Yes for the most part.

I'm having a similar issue with mine, VMP 67mm everything is fine but I have surging at part throttle as well. I've used different tb data and found one that works, I've raised all my limits and more so I'm not sure where I'm going wrong, temped to say its the tq tables, VMPGen2R on a 79mm pully

Quote:

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Originally Posted by txtailtorcher

I'm having a similar issue with mine, VMP 67mm everything is fine but I have surging at part throttle as well. I've used different tb data and found one that works, I've raised all my limits and more so I'm not sure where I'm going wrong, temped to say its the tq tables, VMPGen2R on a 79mm pully

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I could try to help you out. I just don't get on here often. Are you on the HP Tuners help and info Facebook group? If, message me your name
(if you don't want to post here) and I will look you up and message you.