I have an s550. When I get to my laptop I will look over the tune and see if there?s anything I notice
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I have an s550. When I get to my laptop I will look over the tune and see if there?s anything I notice
Attachment 126431Quote:
Globois: That tune is different. If I loaded that in mine it would jump if I touched the throttle. I've tried similar settings, not even close to yours, and jump it did. Then half throttle = full power?
So I was curious if you had to do that to yours to get it work normally, or you just like it like that?
I see you went to 300 on the Max Desired Load under air. I was starting to wonder if I was the only one who needed to do that. Makes me wonder if we have the same problem. Not sure what 300 will do on a car that doesn't have a problem so I left the OP tune at 160 to see what happens, then he can bump it from there.
Your min Turbo Duty Cycle is not a good idea, dangerous even, imo.
If I set mine to 60 it would overboost like a mofo. If I had to guess I'd say it would exceed 30 psig, but probably more. outlaw_50 said doesn't go past 17 on a stock M278 (or maybe it was 15), and I try not to exceed 20.
Months ago, when I still had the oem check valve on the vacuum pump, I could push DC to as far as 52, which would exceed 20psi a bit. Also note it was very sensitive, so 53 was not a 1% jump in boost, more like 5%, which is why I used 52, not 53.
Since then I've replaced my oem check valve and now a DC of 45 is about equal to that, where 45 with the old valve was closer to having no boost at all.
Then there's the solenoid. I have two, my oem and a new one. The new one sucks and lets in too much air so I don't use it. They are very crude devices, as are the check valves, so the vacuum each car gets to the turbos can very drastically. The ECU compensates for that, to a point, but it can't lower it if you lock the min DC.
So if I had my old check valve and the new/crappy solenoid I'd imagine 60 would be fine. As I am now, it would probably rip my intercoller apart and possibly my intake.
All this is why I put the DC to 30 on the ones I gave him, to be safe. It'll likely do nothing for power, but it'll minimize wastegate wear. Then one he posts some runs we can see where it is and he can adjust it up as needed, if he wants.
You also have your turbo Intergal #'s wrong. I don't want you to think I'm putting you down with all this, btw, just an fyi. I'm not even sure what they'll do set like that, but if I had to guess it's just keeping intergal off? It'll run with it off, it'll just be slower to respond is all.
Hey chevota, no offense taken at all. I just put this here for some ideas you know maybe some of these values may be helpful. But I do apologize I did forget to add that the file I post had Mods. You and me both know how hard it is to get some experienced help with our cars on this forum All the people with knowledgeable info turn a blind eye smh. Everything besides the intergal #s I tried and works on my car. Airflow, Timing and fuel is quite simple it?s just turbo settings and tq calculations are a bit confusing. I have blackboost intakes, aftermarket heat exchanger, and the black boost thermostat car sees about 185-195 WOTQuote:
Originally Posted by chevota
Scanner reads around 543+hp 644tq(to the crank obvi) I feel like with the small mods I have maybe a little more but idk could be because I have no downpipe or exhaust work besides muffler delete
When I get to my computer I can post my log and tune maybe there?s something you might see and can help with
As far as for the intercooler it can hold a good amount of boost the issue is heat under higher boost m278s that don?t have split cooling system then adding one is golden , heat exchanger helps, small things like tricking the intercooler pump to constantly run is something that helps also, I seen on some forums people reroute the lines to the trunk with a bigger tank for maximum efficiency, meth injection spraying into the intercooler pipes definitely help as well. M278/M157 share the same intercooler so they can hold up to about 800+ hp before people start looking for aftermarket
With proper supporting cooling, the turbos will max out before the intercooler will go I?ve seen multiple m278s pushing over 25psi of boost
As far as boost solenoid and check valve I?ve replaced the solenoid with oem when everything was stock I had a boost issue turns out it was a vacuum leak. I remember a couple months back you gave me a tune with some turbo settings I used believe the DC was 50-82 i was peaking 17-18 stock everything, that worked for me as well. I beat a list full of cars with those setting
Also the throttle setting I have set like that for my personal liking Eco mode drives like the day I got it. Sport modes is a complete difference I feel like with my weight being on the heavy side it gives me a good jump when I hit the throttle
Then there?s the desired max load I?m glad you mentioned that I?ve been using that from the tune I got from you with the 50-82 DC it?s been working for me since then I never tried to change it I have a tune with mods similar to mine I can reference those values and see if it makes a difference
The blind leading the blind, but now I can see enough out of one eye to discern shapes ;)
For the Min Turbo DC I'm just saying everyone should be wary about bumping it because each cars max DC will be different. Like mine now at a min DC of 45% can break 20psi so I'd imagine 50 would be >25 and so on. On the other hand, if you can get away with 60 then I'd say your vacuum is low. I suppose as a test you could bump max DC to 95 or 100 and see if that changes anything? If not then I'd say your vac pump or check valve is the problem. If vac is low then you will lose boost at high rpm, and I know you don't like the sound of that.
The replacement check valves sold for the vac pumps are usually junk, so if your valve is black, which is the tell-tale chinese crap, I'd lose it and get a better one. The oem is orange and my nice aftermarket one is green. Ebay and misc scammers will advertise the orange but sell you a crap chinese black one thinking people won't know. How do I know? I bought one as a spare and got F'd, plus I've seen pix of others who got F'd.
If you want more boost/power, try this puppy: Attachment 126536
It's not exactly what I'm running at the moment, because I'm always doing weird stuff, but most of weird stuff is in there.
The "Max Desired Load" under Airflow/General is 350, and "Driver Input" under torque is 1000. Yours where high too so I feel ok about these.
Misc things a normal car might not like are: The low octane retard is off.
The Min Spark is not as minimum, I think I cut most of the #'s in half? Works for me but could be risky in another car?
The cat heating spark is very different than my oem, and it works for me, but may be weird for others?
My throttle settings are much softer than oem at the start, which basically balanced out torque settings that made it too aggressive, apparently.
The Turbo Min DC is 45%, which I mentioned is my new max but could still be too much for someone else. I suppose you too discovered that the min does nothing for power up top, so for others reading it just reduces turbo lag and bumps mid range power. Basically when you floor it it's ready to go vs oem opening the wastgates at that moment, then recovering from it. There's more bennies to it but more or less that's the part you'll feel most. When it does overboost from too much min DC it's usually ~4k +- 500 for me. It can happen at lower rpm, just less likely.
The Exhaust temps cap at 1700, which I need or it'll cost me power, but not sure why. Also not sure if there are any drawbacks to it.
Fuel Slope is set to ~10-11% more than oem, which my car likes. A lot of people have said their M278 has high fuel trims so I left it in there.
The power settings are overall set high, which may be exactly what you want, but as I always warn; not sure what it'll do on a normal car.
Note the Turbo settings, and specifically the "Wastgate Canister Pressure to Duty Cycle" chart, which helps me a lot. I think "Adaption" just below it needs to be disabled for it to work? I think it would otherwise adapt it out? This setting helps boost across the board, more or less, and it should bump your max rpm psi. It's set to match a min DC of 45, so you can see from my #'s how to adjust to something else.
The PID settings are also set for a DC of 45, and may not look right, but there's a reason. If you adjust min DC then I suppose some tweaking is in order. I can explain how if anyone needs.
The Normalizer is tweaked too, ~10%. From what I can tell this lowers your torque/horsepower reading in the Scanner by 10%. I haven't bothered but you'd need to use Math to x1.1111 your torque to correct torque/horsepower readings.
It doesn't seem to alter Load SAE because mine went up when torque went down. I still don't know wth Calc Load is but it didn't seem to change.
Other weird stuff like the idle rev limit is set low because I'm paranoid. I think it's 1800? I've simply had too many mishaps over the years. The only time I rev it is to cool it down, and I never hit 1800 doing it so there it is...
The IC Pump is tweaked too, but unsure what cars that works on. I think its min DC is 20%, then it kicks On at lower temp? It's hard to decypher its settings, which I assume, like other things in there, are simply incorrect.
thanks ill check this out and let you knowQuote:
Originally Posted by chevota
heres those files Attachment 126552Attachment 126554Attachment 126553 this tune file is what i was running on those logs
Globois: I was curious if you see your fuel charts the same way I'm seeing them. I've seen many charts from other people that look like this and I don't know what to make of it.
The chart is clearly wrong, but does the car follow it or is HP simply seeing it wrong and it's actually fine? Or is it a glitch that occurs when I look at someone else's tune?
Say for example I "fixed" the chart to look normal, I wonder what it would do if you loaded it?
Attachment 126576
I opened that tune and see the same thing as in your screenshot. I also checked my stock file and the most recent tune you've posted, and that table looks fine in both. The operating system listed in the calibration/tune details is different for each, so that could be the source of the problem. It looks like a memory mismatch for where HP is getting the column and row values in Globois tune, starting at the wrong address for both. It looks like it cut off the first 3 cells and got "junk" for the last 3. Changing those values could have very unexpected results if that memory is actually used for something else. Not sure when the info gets re-read or otherwise updated in the tune file, so it could either be from an older version of the HPT software or still be an existing bug.
It's a relief it's not just me.
The 8x tune I posted is from my car, not his that I modded.
The tune "MB S550 stg1 globois550.hpt" is normal, and I'd imagine his oem file modded?
What I should've mentioned is the tune "mercedes benz s550 BB intakes,heat exchanger,muff delete STAGE 1.5.hpt" is the hozed one. Possibly not based on his oem file?
The latter was, I believe, done with HP v5+ because I have issues using v4 on it. But still, if I use v4, 5 or 5 beta, it changes nothing and is still hozed.
Of the tunes I've seen with this same issue, on random charts, I suspect they were all originally tuned via another source? Like a Weistec or something, which comes out wonky for us?
We're on the same page for which files are which. I went back and confirmed that "MB S550 stg1 globois550.hpt" is also normal for me.
Checked back through the edit history for the file with the weird table and found where all the labels get changed. It's in the tune history for 2022/07/02 09:16:12 AM. That means it's not what I was afraid of, and should be fine to fix.
How it would have happened is still a mystery. I think in some cases, the third party tune makes sense, but not here. It now looks to be a glitch when the file was saved, or an intentional or accidental edit of the table. If it was a save glitch, it has me thinking something related to a version change in HP. Looking back over at the history, there was a 1.5 month time gap since the previous change, making the version change seem like a reasonable cause.
Now I'm thinking about some things to prevent that in the future. One idea would be to re-read the ECU after an update. Another would be to make one small change and save the file, then verify that was the only change and undo it.
Also, here's my stock tune in case it's helpful: Attachment 126587
Thanks log, your file is interesting. It's amazing how different some things can be. Like your throttle map (Desired Torque under Torque Management/Driver Demand), Fuel maps and especially cam timing. Your throttle makes more sense to me, more like a carburetor imo, with some extra at the end to help with boost loss. Mine seems really odd to me but it works fine. I tried making mine more like a carb, like yours, but it didn't work out because boost would kick in and give me more torque than I was asking for.
My Ex cam timing is -18 up high, yours is -8. Yours makes much more sense to me. I assumed -18 was for the turbos, but now I wonder.
My intake goes to 28 up high, yours 42! Both seem too much in my mind, but when I think about it, using a small cam and turbo, it makes sense for the most part.
So I suppose I'll experiment with my cam settings again, but I remember pushing my Ex to -10 and it cost me power. I never retarded my intake, only advanced it since 28 seemed really far already. I guess I'll plug in my max of 36 and see what happens.
Here's my bone stock load if you were curious: Attachment 126590
It's definitely interesting seeing the difference between the two files, but I've only had time to look over a few things. I definitely like the throttle map on the E63, been working on replicating it on my other car. There are a handful of cascading changes and lots of fine tuning I've had to do with things not currently available on this platform, coordinating shift points and desired torque in relation to pedal position.
The cam timing differences are surprising for sure. I'll have to review some info on cam timing before I can make any real commentary on those values. I did play with cam timing a fair bit on the other car a while back (Ford Ecoboost V6), but it's intake cam only. If I remember right, I made a bunch of pulls with the cam set at a range of fixed values and used the ones that resulted in the highest torque at each RPM for the high load cells. The rest of the table is basically stock aside from a couple cells that I blended a bit. Cell values are cam advance degrees / 10. That table is very different from either of the V8s. After typing that, I've been comparing the tables for a few minutes, and it looks like the Mercedes is actually using its values to retard the intake cam from a preset max advance.
Attachment 126622
The cams are measured at 0 (TDC). So the Int, if set to 0, starts opening at 0 deg. If set to 20, it starts opening at 20 ATDC, or +20 relative to 0. If it were -4, then it would open at 4 BTDC.
The Ex is also measured at 0, but when closing. So 0 means it closes at TDC and -15 means it closes at 15 BTDC.
It makes sense since old school cams use Int opening and Ex closing too, but I always assumed this was strictly to determine overlap.
I've always gone by lobe centerline. Certain engines like certain lobe centerlines, regardless of duration changing the opening/closing. VVT changes all that, and Turbos and emissions change it even more.
So the Int opening late makes sense to me with such a small cam, and I believe the turbo wants it even more retarded. But it still seems like these #'s, especially your Intakes, are excessive. Same with my Ex #'s but it seems to me the only valid reasons for early Ex opening are Cat heating, EGR and more turbo speed. So imo, under load it's sacrificing ideal Ex timing to net more boost, which is better overall.
Well, in my mind that's why, but I've never read anything to back it up.
These tables make much more sense after that explanation. It looks like it's based on the 1mm lift time specifically? It also appears your intake cam is advanced 10 degrees from mine, so your adjustment range is -4 to 36 where mine is 6 to 46.
I looked back at the Ecoboost stuff after your reply and found the base reference for the cams. Side note, its bore and stroke are nearly identical to the M278. Intake opening is based on a reference of 380, so +20. Exhaust closing is fixed at 370, so +10.
If comparing intake times directly, the v8s both look late, but I'm suspecting there's still a slight difference in cam reference point from the v6. When comparing range, the v8s both look to be less, but the total available range is about the same for all. What I remember about intake is that idle was best with it fully retarded. For best power overall on that engine, advance rolls in as boost/load goes up at low rpm and tapers back out as rpm goes up. That ties in with the basic rule of advance low, retard high.
Exhaust timing is what I know the least about, but the effects you stated sound correct. Logically, opening the exhaust valve earlier would put more hot air into the turbo unless cooled with too much intake overlap. Thinking about it though, would EGR effect be from delaying both at lower rpm so some exhaust is drawn back in on the intake stroke before the intake valve opens?
From your previous post about retarding exhaust at high RPM, you probably would want to retard the intake along with it.
I'm not quite ready to start with HP on the E63 or I'd contribute to some of the experimentation. Perhaps soon. Have some thoughts on the other threads too, just been to busy to reply.
None of the Ex will be sucked in on the intake stroke, and we don't have any overlap. I'd assume overlap is a no-no on an oem emissions car. Our EGR is gas that never left.
At idle we have a ton of EGR cam timing happening, but not much gas to play with, so I'd imagine it balances out and it's possibly an attempt to increase ex temps? At cruise we have less EGR timing than anywhere else, which seems odd, but probably a balance for CO emissions and I'm sure both the Int & Ex timing and grinds are set to both emissions and mpg at cruise.
If under boost with the exhaust manifold under xx psi I can't say how much EGR is happening but it's no doubt a lot, at least with my timing. 18 btc and I'd imagine it's at least 10psi? I don't even know what the Ex psi is...
Whatever it is, it's exactly welcome on the intake stroke... I don't think all that EGR under full load is planned, but maybe. My guess is it's what's left over after our emissions cam grinds and it is what it is.
I tried using your Ex timing, which should lower my leftover Ex gas but it certainly doesn't make more power. It doesn't kill it or anything, just makes a little less power and sounds different. So my guess is I net less EGR effect but overall the turbo doesn't like it. My guess is the root cause is too much backpressure. I bet if my Ex was freer your Ex #'s would work better.
As for intake, I tried yours up to my limit of 36, while using your Ex of -8. The 36 doesn't seem to hurt, but I feel no gain either. So right now I have it at 36 and the Ex is -15, which I learned a while ago works as well as the oem -18.
I've seen like 3 professional tunes for this car by the big guys. Like well known tuners. I've even tuned a few with the m157 turbo. Working with Truman we ended up getting a lot more power than the big guys.
Anyways I can sell you a tune based on all of the big guys for like $100 -- PayPal to [email protected] and send your file. Let me know if you have any mods. I used to do this for free, but I'm really tuning mercedes as a business now and cannot do it for free anymore. But I still bring that, I do this for fun spirit, just with a lot more experience and with partners like Morendi.