Hellcat Torque Managment Questions

I have an issue with a 15 Hellcat. I have timing being pulled by torque management. On E85 it pulls about 16 degrees and on 93 its pulling around 11 degrees. The more torque it makes the more timing is pulled. I don't see any extra timing being pulled during a shift. I tried deleting TM when using the paddles to hold it in gear and to keep it from shifting without TM. This gives me full timing. I have tried everything and with TM on I just keep pulling timing. I did try maxing out the Torque Adapts. This gave me full timing once again. I assume my problem is being caused by torque values that are to far off, I want to keep TM on, So my questions are,
What are the torque Adapts
What do I log and change to make the torque happy and the timing happy once again.
Why are the shift torque reductions so low,

Be careful trying to eliminate the timing retard on the shifts on the ZF8. This is known to cause transmission failures.

I'm not trying to remove any torque reduction during a shift. I just want the torque reduction gone when in gear during the pull then it can pull as much as it wants during the shift. The only
thing that kept timing from being pulled during a wot pull when in gear was to increase the torque adapts. However I didnt see any timing pulled during an actual shift.

With all the torque management on and the torque adapts maxed out I have no timing being pulled during a WOT pull in gear, during a shift I see the drivers demand torque stay around 600 and the trans engine request go from 1141 down to around 300 and request mode goes from none to decreased. It looks like Torque management is being activated, however I don't see any reduction in timing or fueling during the shift. So I'm not sure its doing anything.

Bad383TA

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Originally Posted by bad383ta

With all the torque management on and the torque adapts maxed out I have no timing being pulled during a WOT pull in gear, during a shift I see the drivers demand torque stay around 600 and the trans engine request go from 1141 down to around 300 and request mode goes from none to decreased. It looks like Torque management is being activated, however I don't see any reduction in timing or fueling during the shift. So I'm not sure its doing anything.

Bad383TA

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I have the same problem on a 15 5.7 with the ZF8, it's closing the TB & going to decreased. Ever figure this out?Attachment 68258

i have a 2016 cat doing the same thing pulls timing through a pull. anyone have any direction on this.

So i may have found the culprit. So i believe the knock sensors are just wayyy to sensitive started desensitizing them and things started to fall into place. desensitized them enough to where it would allow me to add timing to the point where the engine wouldnt make anymore power n then backed off timing just a little. Then resensitized them to the piont of starting to see knock again n then back off a little bit. Seems to be ok. The sweeps on dyno feels smooth and everything looks ok.

ok quick reply to an old but still relevant thread. I ran into this and set the trans trq in the newly unlocked trans options to max and my timing retard in the mid range was gone. It all had to do with the aircharge trq tables is my guess with the trans trq limits.

You changed max tq in the text box from 664 to 959?

Yeah under the transmission torque management tab. Type 0-6 Max set it to 956 from 664. I never could get it out before but my guess is the torque table or friction modifier table had to be modified or this does. I never tried the other two. The friction table was always an option just never touched it.

Engine>Torque Management>Engine>Friction Torque I could always see this
Engine>Torque Management>General>Torque per Cyl added before or after transmission support.

I did this as well. When data logging I noticed that driver requested torque never goes above 630-650 and max engine torque stops at 738 when I have everything maxed out. Anyone else run into this issue?

I have looked at several tcm "tunes". Who keeps taking trq management out via engine side? Zeroing out the upper friction loss map. I zeroed the fiction loss with only fuel cuts ever disabled. Even with trans torq maxed it pulled timing. Put friction loss back on my own bam call any timing. I think the motor has its own limit map or the torque map maxes out past mid 900 range? Oh and transmission shift calling pid shows it pulls from a load of maps most unknown and not correlating to the mapped out rpms. Also to get crisp consistent 5th and 4th gear shifts had to bump all 4 pressure maps in the two highest torque rows up alot. It does show track for shift mode but rpms and all never seem to pull from track mapping when it's wot.....

I just tested on a buddies car. Torque tables and friction torque tables need to be left stock. Even with trans maxed it would pull boost to limit and match the max of 738 trans max engine torque request. I think the newest beta broke the Trans max torque settings? Beta 3.7.422 I did have them set at 850 on the transmission side but default is still lower then 738 so I dono.

Old thread but check to see if you have traction control engaged. The ecm will close throttle to reduce power to the rear wheels to gain traction. I came across that when tuning torque correlation and airflow tables couldn?t figure out what it was until i realized traction control was engaged sure enough when i pulled it no more TB closing during acceleration into boost

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bad383ta

I have an issue with a 15 Hellcat. I have timing being pulled by torque management. On E85 it pulls about 16 degrees and on 93 its pulling around 11 degrees. The more torque it makes the more timing is pulled. I don't see any extra timing being pulled during a shift. I tried deleting TM when using the paddles to hold it in gear and to keep it from shifting without TM. This gives me full timing. I have tried everything and with TM on I just keep pulling timing. I did try maxing out the Torque Adapts. This gave me full timing once again. I assume my problem is being caused by torque values that are to far off, I want to keep TM on, So my questions are,
What are the torque Adapts
What do I log and change to make the torque happy and the timing happy once again.
Why are the shift torque reductions so low,

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I have searched everywhere and even asked hptuners no one explains what do torque adapts do. Like what happens if i max out friction adapt , trans adapt, ac adapt. And what does base friction numbers do under torque model?What happens if i zero the whole table? Please help!

Could you share a complete tune file? I opened the one in the first post, but not much information on A8.
In general, adaptation is to keep your shift consistent throughout transmission lifetime. In case you do Mods in the engine, it is necessary to re-work them. Otherwise, you could:
- Burn your transmission because of over or lack of
- Have your shifts good for just some time. After a while, TM will re-learned it and you will loose your tune

Be careful with playing around with friction without knowing what you do. You can easily burn your transmission.

Dodge Boy
YouTube: https://youtube.com/@dodgeboy2785