Injector Tuning - Demon Injector Swap - Help

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08-15-2020
iCanuck

2 Attachment(s)

Injector Tuning - Demon Injector Swap - Help

Hoping someone can help me. I am trying to swap Demon Injectors into my 2007 300C 5.7L w/ Edelbrock Eforce. I plan on going E85 soon and will require the larger injectors.

I have read on several threads on swapping to larger injectors, including - Injector Tuning... What I have seen people do is take the New Injector Flow Rate divided by the Original Injector Flow Rate then multiply that by the Fuel Mass in the PW vs Fuel Mass & Fuel Mass vs PW tables.

The injectors that came with the Eforce Kit are 46 lb/hr and the Demon Injectors are 66.7 lb/hr

So 66.7 / 46 = 1.45 x Fuel Mass values

I then reset my all adaptives to reset the fuel trims and logged but now I am getting very high fuel trims (-15) and not sure where to go from here. My AFR at cold start is 13.8 & after it learns some Fuel Trims settles around 14.7 but any touch of the gas it will go rich @ 12ish & then lean to 17-18.

I believe I need to log the Fuel Mass vs Short Term Fuel Trims and adjust the fuel mass accordingly. But I'm not sure exactly, there are many different posts and I don't fully understand what I need to do.

Another thought would be to take the Demon Injector PW values from a Stock Demon tune and modify them to work for my application.

I have attached my best tune with the 46lb injectors & a stock Demon tune....Any help would be greatly appreciated!
08-19-2020
spoolboy

3 questions:

Is this just the "canned tune" from Edelbrock or was it dialed in on a dyno?
Do you think it's odd that the VE doesn't go over 100% with a blower?
Did you compare this VE table to your stock tune?
08-19-2020
spoolboy

2 Attachment(s)

This would be a stock 5.7 injector flow table.

Attachment 102416

This is yours.

Attachment 102417
08-20-2020
iCanuck

Quote:

Originally Posted by spoolboy

3 questions:

Is this just the "canned tune" from Edelbrock or was it dialed in on a dyno?
Do you think it's odd that the VE doesn't go over 100% with a blower?
Did you compare this VE table to your stock tune?

07_300C_FINAL tune is the Edelbrock Eforce calibration used as a base and then tuned on a dyno then fine tuned on the street. Not sure why VE tables don't go over 100% but most Eforce Hemi tunes I've seen don't even though the VE Max is adjusted to 175% from the stock 100%. The VE was dialed in within 2% via LTFT+STFT logging prior to the Demon Injector Swap.

Sorry I don't understand the purpose of comparing the VE tables from my tune to the Demon tune. I read first you log Fuel trims vs fuel mass and adjust the PW tables, then do the same with VE afterwards.

I'm trying to use the Demon Injectors on my 2007 300C with Eforce so I can go with E85. The reason I went with Demon Injectors is because I work at a dealer and they are very cheap for me. The Eforce Injectors are 46 lb/hr & the Demon Injectors are 66.7 lb/hr.

What I have done so far is...

1) Math - 66.7/46=1.45
2) 1.45 x Injector Fuel Mass tables
3) Logged Histogram of LTFT+STFT vs Fuel Mass and multiplied by % half (x10 with 20 min logs)
I have now within 2% on my LTFT+STFT vs Fuel Mass histogram
I guess now I should do the same with the VE

Not sure if I am doing any of this correctly but I have read almost every Dodge Injector Thread on here. One thing I am also not sure on is if I should have the Neural Network on or not when logging the Fuel Trims vs Fuel Mass.
08-20-2020
iCanuck

Quote:

Originally Posted by spoolboy

This would be a stock 5.7 injector flow table.

Attachment 102416

This is yours.

Attachment 102417

Yes my PW tables are the Edelbrock Eforce values untouched. When I had the Eforce 46 lb/hr injectors in those values worked great. When I compare the PW tables from my Eforce tune & the Demon tune first thing I notice is how linear the PW is on the Demon tune. Also the Demon PW offsets use injector vacuum as a x-axis

Wish I knew how to either use the Demon injector data from the Demon tune for my application, there must be mathematical way to do this...
08-20-2020
spoolboy

What I'm getting at, is your Edelbrock tune appears to be jacked up. I'm not an expert, but since nobody else jumped in here I'll share what I think.

Since your car is pre-neural network the tuning should definitely be done with the VE tables and NOT the injector tables, but it appears that the tuning was mostly done by manipulating injector flow.

It looks to me like you have to start over from scratch by putting in the demon flow injector flow values correctly (which CAN be taken from a Demon tune), figure out the injector offsets (battery, manifold pressure), and then properly tune the VE tables with a wideband and preferrably on a load bearing dyno.

In short, you can't just multiply that jacked-up injector flow table by the change in injector flow as it already is way off.
08-20-2020
SultanHassanMasTuning

you need to copy over all injector data and deadtime

also your fuel pressure on a demon is different as hellcats and most supercharged dodge vehicles has a fuel pressure 80psi under wot
08-20-2020
spoolboy

Yeah, I forgot to mention that Sultan. Not just battery volts and manifold pressure since the Demon/HC have variable fuel pressure you have to think in terms of fuel pressure ratio across the injector tips.

A hint is that standard atmosphere is ~100kpa and fuel pressure is 300kpa.
08-20-2020
iCanuck

Quote:

Originally Posted by SultanHassanMasTuning

you need to copy over all injector data and deadtime

also your fuel pressure on a demon is different as hellcats and most supercharged dodge vehicles has a fuel pressure 80psi under wot

Appreciate the response. Yes I am running 58 psi fuel pressure where I read the Demons are 104 psi P/T & 80 psi WOT. Still not sure what I would have to modify for the fuel pressure differences, sorry I'm fairly new to tuning.

Quote:

Originally Posted by spoolboy

Yeah, I forgot to mention that Sultan. Not just battery volts and manifold pressure since the Demon/HC have variable fuel pressure you have to think in terms of fuel pressure ratio across the injector tips.

A hint is that standard atmosphere is ~100kpa and fuel pressure is 300kpa.

Thanks for the help and hint but still not sure what to change after I input the Demon Injector data or what part of the Demon offset table to use. Could you explain a bit more?
08-20-2020
spoolboy

Quote:

Originally Posted by iCanuck

Appreciate the response. Yes I am running 58 psi fuel pressure where I read the Demons are 104 psi P/T & 80 psi WOT. Still not sure what I would have to modify for the fuel pressure differences, sorry I'm fairly new to tuning.

Thanks for the help and hint but still not sure what to change after I input the Demon Injector data or what part of the Demon offset table to use. Could you explain a bit more?

Check your PMs.
08-20-2020
joeapple

Quote:

Originally Posted by iCanuck

Appreciate the response. Yes I am running 58 psi fuel pressure where I read the Demons are 104 psi P/T & 80 psi WOT. Still not sure what I would have to modify for the fuel pressure differences, sorry I'm fairly new to tuning.

Thanks for the help and hint but still not sure what to change after I input the Demon Injector data or what part of the Demon offset table to use. Could you explain a bit more?

My 19 red eye runs 104psi under WOT so you are correct, I can confirm that, hope that helps a little
08-20-2020
coanan

Quote:

Originally Posted by joeapple

My 19 red eye runs 104psi under WOT so you are correct, I can confirm that, hope that helps a little

So how are they getting that pressure, voltage?
08-20-2020
spoolboy

The cats and demons have a super fuel pump module that varies pump output. So, probably pwm controlled but I haven't really dived deep on it.
08-24-2020
joeapple

Quote:

Originally Posted by coanan

So how are they getting that pressure, voltage?

I am assuming it is PWM as well, I see 81%DC @104psi with 3.17 pulley and 1200cc injectors
09-17-2020
Dave401Redeye

I think your stock Demon file is mislabeled. It does not look like it has the correct tables.
09-20-2020
iCanuck

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave401Redeye

I think your stock Demon file is mislabeled. It does not look like it has the correct tables.

I'm pretty sure it is, I found it here... https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...ock-demon-file