Pre-VVT Hemi - Dialing in Fueling - VE Correction or LTFT+STFT?

Hello everyone, working on my 2008 Dodge Ram 5.7. Rebuilt engine and put in a new cam, so I am trying to get it to idle right and adjust so the fuel trims are closer to zero. Right now, it is pulling an excessive amount of LTFT+STFT. Even after pulling 20% VE in the idle areas, it is still pulling more.

It's my understanding that to get a good idle, I should increase the spark in the idle areas. Nevertheless, I am trying to get the fuel trims under control. I don't see a way to directly adjust fueling, but I believe it is done by adjusting VE. After logging a bit, I noticed that there is a VE Correction parameter. Should I be using 1-((VE Correction B1 + VE Correction B2)/2) instead of my current 1-((LTFT B1 + LTFT B2 + STFT B1 + STFT B2)/4) for corrections to the VE table? (I have it calculated that way so I can copy/paste into the VE Tables.)

I do notice the VE Corrections follow the fuel adjustments fairly closely, but I want to make sure I'm doing this the best way.

I'm also noticing the fuel trims for one bank is a few percent higher than the other, would that indicate an exhaust leak? Keep in mind I'm pulling fueling, so I didn't think it was that since it was still rich. Engine does have a tick to it, that does follow RPM, but I think it might be an error in pushrod length calculation on my part -- slightly too short. I scoped the exhaust manifold area with the tube-in-the-ear method and didn't hear any leaks.

Thank you for your thoughts!

Just a thought but why not just make the ve correction 1. I'm assuming they are a multiplier so that would negate it having any effect on your fuelling. Then just tune ve table to your liking.

I have the same issue trying to tune my buddy's Charger. Its a 6.1 but problems you describe are the same. LTFT B1 is adding nearly 20% and I'm coming to the conclusion that its an exhaust leak around the O2 sensors on the drivers side. Until my buddy can get his car into a shop to verify, that's the only reason I can come up with. Regardless, I'm interested in hearing any theories apart from mine. Sounds identical to your issue! Maybe it's something with these old gens?

Thank you for the replies. I've went over a bunch of different possibilities used from some posts on here, as well as some tuners on youtube. I had a VE of around 41% in order to make it idle right, and it's not a crazy big cam 220/230 .598 lift, 113 LSA. Even then, despite not showing any misfires, the engine shook quite poorly. I did some leak tests by listening around the exhaust components with a tube in my ear, and I even wanted to check the intake side of things so I carefully sprayed brake cleaner around the intake manifold and fuel injector bosses, looking for an idle bump (nope). I pulled the valve covers and I couldn't feel any pushrod lash, although I could ever-so-slightly slide the rocker on the tube. I don't know if that means I have too much lash -- I measured the zero lash length and ordered pushrods with about 0.067 preload on the intake and 0.075 on the exhaust. At that point, I decided to do a compression test. This engine was running fairly well before the rebuild, but was tired with over 200k miles. The cylinder compression was give or take 150-155. Now that I've rebuilt it -- using the same rods, same head although decked 0.006", but different pistons (Sold as stock replacement/CR), I'm seeing between 120-130 on the cylinders. Tested all of them. I've seen lots of numbers thrown around for a pre-VVT hemi, but I think the consensus is about 170psi is expected for a new engine.

I'm praying I got the cam timing off by a tooth, but if it's not that, then I think I have to tear into the engine and check the pistons. I measured ring gap on all of the pistons and they were a little on the high side, but still within spec.

This weekend, I'm going to pull the front timing cover off and see what's what. I really hope I can get it off without pulling the pan (Again).

On some of my first tunes, where I had already pulled 10% VE, I was still seeing LTFT's pulling 38%. I didn't realize it could even go that far. I even swapped out injectors with the old ones, to see if the cleaned/OE set I got were the wrong flow rates -- nope.

I went as far as holding the timing with a minimum of +15*, even when my fuel trims were correct (With those terribly low VE's) and it was shaking/bucking pretty bad.

When I pulled the plugs (Only have about 3 hours and maybe 30 break-in miles on them) and they all looked good.

I also tried creating a vacuum leak by yanking the vacuum line to the booster, and the rpm's climbed, and it ran a little bit better, which to me means that there probably wasn't a vacuum leak. My guess is it leaned it out even more, which made it run better.

Update: tore back into engine to check timing and other things. Turns out pushrod was too short. After I used a zip tie to extend the distance from the lifter to the rocker (Effectively shortening the pushrod), I saw 170 psi. So I had measured my intake pushrod wrong, and wasn't fully sealing. The timing was spot on. I also looked at the parts bucket of old parts and I was shocked that there was 7 of the pre-vvt pistons and 1 that was a post-vvt piston! I weighed the pistons, the pre-vvt were about 414g and the post was 422g. I'm surprised the engine ran as smooth as it did before. I don't have a good way to measure compression height, but the actual post-vvt pistons are slightly taller as a whole. The dome begins much closer to the OD of the piston on the pre-vvt. The post-vvt is essentially a flat top for the 1st half inch OD. I think it's because of the squish pads which extend further inward on the post-vvt engines.

I ordered a borescope because I want to see if I had piston to valve contact.