Stock Injector, Stock Cp3 Max effort tune Review.

Ive been dabbling more and more into tuning, took Ryans class last year and have been really interested in tuning ever since. I have been reading, asking questions, flashing, datalogging and testing. After a couple months of changes I have found a few issues I was having and was able to fix them. I dealt with a popping upon WOT, Ive dealt with limiter keeping it from full uS, re-calibrating the axis to achieve full timing and uS (140mm3 vs 165mm3), and also found a limiter keeping it from hitting 175mpa. I think I finally have something that is headed in the right direction. Looking for insight and to see what you all think. Thanks Attachment 94141

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Originally Posted by VDP15

Ive been dabbling more and more into tuning, took Ryans class last year and have been really interested in tuning ever since. I have been reading, asking questions, flashing, datalogging and testing. After a couple months of changes I have found a few issues I was having and was able to fix them. I dealt with a popping upon WOT, Ive dealt with limiter keeping it from full uS, re-calibrating the axis to achieve full timing and uS (140mm3 vs 165mm3), and also found a limiter keeping it from hitting 175mpa. I think I finally have something that is headed in the right direction. Looking for insight and to see what you all think. Thanks Attachment 94141

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I looked at the timing and Here is a Idea of what I would start doing timing wise on a ford as we get closer to max timing. Attachment 94166 Now this isn't near perfect and leaves a lot to be desired still, this isn't something you should run without knowing your truck and what it likes but i would think smoothing your timing upwards as RPM and fuel demand goes up will help keep peak cylinder pressure centered closer to TDC a little better. I think your current timing will need to come down some at the highest values as you start ramping it up sooner to maintain the same max timing values. I'd love to see a data log of this truck running WOT to visualize how the timing is coming in, but you really want it to ramp up and in smoothly and consistently. I always like to look at the timing maps in both the 2d and 3d views to help visualize it when reviewing a data log. I could be wrong on how these cummins like timing to ramp in but Jim P can verify that for us if he decides to chime in.

Doesn't look too bad, but 38* is a ton of timing at 3200rpm. On a full max effort I might only be at 34*but that's still pushing it in my opinion. Now up at 4200+ rpm then 38* maybe... 3300uS of duration is up there as well. I usually stop at 3200uS for these trucks.
@JaegerWrenching- Cummins do like having timing come in hard and fast at WOT for making peak power. Keeping timing low for most all of the low to mid load ranges helps with boost response and smoke control. These trucks react so much different than the 6.4 powerstrokes.

Post up a log of some WOT pulls.

Wouldn't alot of different limiters that you have set keep you from hitting your 3300 pulse width that you have commanded. I would think that you would have to have all of the limiters set to like atleast 250 mm so that it isn't holding you back. I have 200 set up in my truck for a max and I think at like 3500 rpm it is only giving it like 2200 us.

If the top commanded mm3 in the duration table is 140mm3, all you need is to have limiters at like 145mm3 to actually have your main pulse hit the top of your duration table.

Finally had the chance to do another small revision and mess with it a little bit more. Dropped uS to 3200 vs 3300. Found the small limiter keeping me from hitting 175mpa and also added 10% across the board in the main injection duration table. The truck runs oddly clean, like too clean. Im all for clean power , but on the verge of melting a piston lean lol. It took 10% and didnt think twice about it, still running very clean. Im thinking about possibly bumping up another 10% too see what that does and dial according to the point of having a light haze under WOT throughout. Hoping that will help pick up a little bit more torque and hp in the lower areas. Here are a couple logs and the tune with the 10% added. Let me know what you all think. Thanks, Joe .Attachment 94220
Attachment 94221 Attachment 94222

Also after looking at he FCA on the log it looks like at higher rpm I am offically running out of pump. Seems to be holding on pretty well under under 75% throttle but once I hit 80% it dropped to 11mA. Hoping to get this all dialed in, then once I do im going to install the S&S supplied 150%s, 12mm pump, and a 472 and see what kind of trouble we can get into with that.

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Originally Posted by VDP15

Finally had the chance to do another small revision and mess with it a little bit more. Dropped uS to 3200 vs 3300. Found the small limiter keeping me from hitting 175mpa and also added 10% across the board in the main injection duration table. The truck runs oddly clean, like too clean. Im all for clean power , but on the verge of melting a piston lean lol. It took 10% and didnt think twice about it, still running very clean. Im thinking about possibly bumping up another 10% too see what that does and dial according to the point of having a light haze under WOT throughout. Hoping that will help pick up a little bit more torque and hp in the lower areas. Here are a couple logs and the tune with the 10% added. Let me know what you all think. Thanks, Joe .Attachment 94220
Attachment 94221 Attachment 94222

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All turbo diesels run lean, like 60:1+ lean at idle. If you hit stoic then you will be having some extreme smoke and heat issues. Around 18:1 is when smoke begins.

I didn?t actually mean lean, I was just over exaggerating to make a point. Do you think it?s odd that it?s so 100% smoke/haze free with what I?m commanding? Once again, not wanting a Smokey pig, just would like to add a little more power in the lower rpm ranges

The early pistons and nozzle spray angle make it really easy for these trucks to run clean. On a max effort stock 03-04 I don't expect any real smoke if properly tuned.

Your timing jumps around during transient conditions, it goes from 5* to 12 and back to 5* then to 40* all while part throttle. It also appears to jump around some on you WOT log but not as bad.

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Originally Posted by JaegerWrenching

Your timing jumps around during transient conditions, it goes from 5* to 12 and back to 5* then to 40* all while part throttle. It also appears to jump around some on you WOT log but not as bad.

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Why do you think that is?

Attachment 94688 These two areas circled are probably the main culprits of this issue. Now there is a slight delay on the channle's side of the data log which makes it harder to see exactly when it's happening. But in order To fix this issue the timing channels and others should be added to the chart vs time section of the scanner which naturally has a higher refresh/update rate. There are other tables in affect as well that i didn't picture, quite a few more TBH. But you can easily see how it goes from 5 to 12 and back because the boost correction goes from +12* to -10 in a 200 rpm span which is right where this all happens. You also can see it just starts to command roughly 100mm3 when this is happening which then pushes past the boost correction table's resolution of 100mm3.

The boost correction table is the exact reason main timing jumps the way it does as described. I know I?ve mentioned on other threads that the correction tables do not work the way people think they do. Damn near everything is set in the ecm to use the table that provides the greatest value. If the ecm hits a cell where the result of the main event timing boost correction table and it subsequent multiplier value results in a greater value than it would from the normal air density table that would be in use, that boost timing correction table becomes the main timing table in use. It does not ?correct? or alter timing from the normal air density timing tables.

Put that boost correction table back to stock and problem solved

In my tune i bypassed the boost timing table
All the magic is my main boost table

Again, boost timing table does NOT get used UNLESS it?s final output value is greater than the air density table the ECM would otherwise be using.

If the ECM would be using air density table 1 and at a given point it would be commanding 2*BTDC but at the same given point in the boost correction table the commanded timing is 8*BTDC(assume multiplier table set at a value of 1 across the board for simplicity sake), the ECM will not use air density table 1, it will use boost correction table and give that commanded output of 8*BTDC from the boost correction table.

Almost everything in the 5.9 ECM?s for how the ECM decides to use which table, air density tables or correction tables, is set to MAX WINS. If the boost correction table is set so no matter what the final output from the boost correction table and it?s multiplier table is less than what it would be from the air density table selected by the ECM, the ECM could care less about the boost correction table, no matter what you set it at so long as it?s final output is less than what the air density table would put out, it will have zero effect on final main timing. The moment the final value from the boost correction table and its multiplier table becomes greater than what it would be from the selected air density table, the boost correction table becomes your ?main? timing table if that?s what you want to call it. There is no ?main timing table, there are multiple timing tables for a multitude of conditions and factors for their different purposes. There are parameters in the ECM that defines how all these different tables get chosen for different conditions and factors. Like in the 04.5-07 ECM, air density table 4 is used for very low air density conditions AND when the engine is in protection mode.

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Originally Posted by Jim P

Again, boost timing table does NOT get used UNLESS it?s final output value is greater than the air density table the ECM would otherwise be using.

If the ECM would be using air density table 1 and at a given point it would be commanding 2*BTDC but at the same given point in the boost correction table the commanded timing is 8*BTDC(assume multiplier table set at a value of 1 across the board for simplicity sake), the ECM will not use air density table 1, it will use boost correction table and give that commanded output of 8*BTDC from the boost correction table.

Almost everything in the 5.9 ECM?s for how the ECM decides to use which table, air density tables or correction tables, is set to MAX WINS. If the boost correction table is set so no matter what the final output from the boost correction table and it?s multiplier table is less than what it would be from the air density table selected by the ECM, the ECM could care less about the boost correction table, no matter what you set it at so long as it?s final output is less than what the air density table would put out, it will have zero effect on final main timing. The moment the final value from the boost correction table and its multiplier table becomes greater than what it would be from the selected air density table, the boost correction table becomes your ?main? timing table if that?s what you want to call it. There is no ?main timing table, there are multiple timing tables for a multitude of conditions and factors for their different purposes. There are parameters in the ECM that defines how all these different tables get chosen for different conditions and factors. Like in the 04.5-07 ECM, air density table 4 is used for very low air density conditions AND when the engine is in protection mode.

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That makes perfect sense after reviewing the log as to why it does what it does now that you've explained this. This is also very good information to know on these ECU's. Thank you Jim. Btw is your name Jim P on YouTube as well? I saw a comment on a video of a guy burning down an old Detroit 2 stoke recently and a couple guys said it was a waste of completely good engine because of how long it ran WOT before blowing up. I just happened to see your name there saying you were in agreeance with this comment.

One of my channels on YouTube is my full name, the other is my tuning business name. Definitely wasn?t me commenting on any Detroit 2 stroke melt down though, I?ve never commented on anyone?s YouTube video.