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Thread: 2015 Z06 low side dropping, failing pump or anything else?

  1. #61
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    So I stuck the wide band in bank 2 sensor 1 slot. Theres about a 1% variation leaner but yeah that's not very much of a difference. Either my transform formula is not true or the sensor is bad.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by kenand1988 View Post
    Its an innovate psb1, its not cheap at least price wise. Yep its a bosch lsu 4.9 sensor. It was what my friend uses as well so I felt it was a good enough purchase. There is no room for another bung pre cat. like thats just not gonna happen on the stock manifold. That's why it was put in the rear after the X. Tuners put sensors in tailpipes so its not like they dont work but they can be skewed lean is what I'd read. Mine is the opposite of that. Just for science I'm installing the WB in the sensor 1 location bank 2 and i'll see if i have better results.
    Bosch sensors are not good. Like at all. You need to swap that sensor out for a Denso. Problem is, I don't know if Denso sensors will work on Innovate wideband gauges

    For the record, I had a Bosch sensor on an Innovate gauge that read overly rich as well. It was so wrong, and eventually the POS just crapped out on me. There was a major lack of support from Innovate so I moved onto AEM and swapped the Bosch they put on it for a Denso LSU 4.9 style sensor and have never looked back since.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZLRob View Post
    Bosch sensors are not good. Like at all. You need to swap that sensor out for a Denso. Problem is, I don't know if Denso sensors will work on Innovate wideband gauges

    For the record, I had a Bosch sensor on an Innovate gauge that read overly rich as well. It was so wrong, and eventually the POS just crapped out on me. There was a major lack of support from Innovate so I moved onto AEM and swapped the Bosch they put on it for a Denso LSU 4.9 style sensor and have never looked back since.
    I wish I'd known more about this before hand. Im used to tuning a Gen 3 coyote which has inboard widebands and zero issues.

    I did test with the sensor with a can of brake clean and a rag. With the sensor covered it went to 63 lambda so the sensor is no good.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by kenand1988 View Post
    I wish I'd known more about this before hand. Im used to tuning a Gen 3 coyote which has inboard widebands and zero issues.

    I did test with the sensor with a can of brake clean and a rag. With the sensor covered it went to 63 lambda so the sensor is no good.
    I don't even bother testing those junks. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't, and sometimes they just don't even work right out of the box. How Bosch is still managing to sell oxygen and air fuel ratio sensors is beyond me because those things belong in the garbage fresh off their assembly line.

  5. #65
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    For anyone following this here is big update. Not sure if anyone noticed it or not but in all the tunes I posted power enrich was set to enable very early, like 800rpm basically anytime I go WOT. Why was that done? Well I took it from another tune from a tuner friend of mine who does this for a living. It was a custom tune for a procharger z06 and I was planning on going with a centri blower as well so he was nice enough to pass a tune on to me. I then started using things from it. Now, the stock tune does not enable PE until 5000rpm. The lambda is about .84-.85 when not in COT. I'm not sure how the car interprets how it is hitting that lambda because as I have found out if you force PE very early the car just runs extremely rich about .7-.72 lambda at the end of a pull. I noticed this when comparing a file and felt I should look into it further. I didn't copy his MAF transfer since its two entirely different boost setups so my MAF wasnt ever really messed with. Anyway with the PE settings back to default wouldn't you know it the lambda is 1 up to 5k and about .8 to redline. So this answered two questions, why is the pump running out of juice and why is the car so rich. The great news is with the correct adjustments to the MAF transfer to hit about a 12.2 afr the low side keeps up fine so I think theres room for a little more boost maybe 1-2 psi and e50. This is also does mean the wideband was working correctly.
    Last edited by kenand1988; 11-16-2022 at 12:29 AM.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by kenand1988 View Post
    For anyone following this here is big update. Not sure if anyone noticed it or not but in all the tunes I posted power enrich was set to enable very early, like 800rpm basically anytime I go WOT. Why was that done? Well I took it from another tune from a tuner friend of mine who does this for a living. It was a custom tune for a procharger z06 and I was planning on going with a centri blower as well so he was nice enough to pass a tune on to me. I then started using things from it. Now, the stock tune does not enable PE until 5000rpm. The lambda is about .84-.85 when not in COT. I'm not sure how the car interprets how it is hitting that lambda because as I have found out if you force PE very early the car just runs extremely rich about .7-.72 lambda at the end of a pull. I noticed this when comparing a file and felt I should look into it further. I didn't copy his MAF transfer since its two entirely different boost setups so my MAF wasnt ever really messed with. Anyway with the PE settings back to default wouldn't you know it the lambda is 1 up to 5k and about .8 to redline. So this answered two questions, why is the pump running out of juice and why is the car so rich. The great news is with the correct adjustments to the MAF transfer to hit about a 12.2 afr the low side keeps up fine so I think theres room for a little more boost maybe 1-2 psi and e50. This is also does mean the wideband was working correctly.
    So it sounds like you got it figured out? I never looked at your PE stuff but I could see why the fact it was set to come on so early and your MAF being off would cause your low side to be on the fritz.

    This is a big reason why copying other people's tunes is never a good move. Regardless, I'm glad you are starting to get it figured out!

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZLRob View Post
    So it sounds like you got it figured out? I never looked at your PE stuff but I could see why the fact it was set to come on so early and your MAF being off would cause your low side to be on the fritz.

    This is a big reason why copying other people's tunes is never a good move. Regardless, I'm glad you are starting to get it figured out!
    This is how we learn, or at least somewhat of how I learn. Since experienced tuners are pretty quiet about the methods they use and you rarely get a full explanation like you could get from an OE manufacturer on how exactly things talk to one another. I didnt buy a bunch of books or take lessons or have the tutelage of another tuner so I just have to work with what ive got if I want to do it myself, which i do. I appreciate at least you responding even though this thread has had over 1000 views lol. Maybe this helps someone else out. The car really feels good now, its going to the dyno friday to get a baseline number with the tweaks I have made. Its completely stock except I gutted the cats and rear cats.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by kenand1988 View Post
    This is how we learn, or at least somewhat of how I learn. Since experienced tuners are pretty quiet about the methods they use and you rarely get a full explanation like you could get from an OE manufacturer on how exactly things talk to one another. I didnt buy a bunch of books or take lessons or have the tutelage of another tuner so I just have to work with what ive got if I want to do it myself, which i do. I appreciate at least you responding even though this thread has had over 1000 views lol. Maybe this helps someone else out. The car really feels good now, its going to the dyno friday to get a baseline number with the tweaks I have made. Its completely stock except I gutted the cats and rear cats.
    Unfortunately yeah, you got a point. A lot of Tuners keep things hush hush to make tuning seem like a dark art, but it's really not too bad once you know what you are looking at, how things work and why they work that way. I got my feet wet with Gen V which is my first time really deep diving into tuning as a whole. While I'm not stranger to automotive, basic engine theory, or even playing with HP Tuners it was my first time really doing a lot more than just a check/ uncheck of the box, playing with the rows and cells, and really figuring out what the heck I was looking at and how/ why things affected other things the way they did. Lucky for me I had a very good sensei who knew what he was doing and took the time to explain things to me because he saw a genuine curiosity within me to want to know the how and the why. I was newer to DI engines and some of the intricacies that they bring to the table so that didn't help speed up the learning curve either, but I'm good to go now and that's all that matters.

    The only problem with playing with tuning is that one poor change to a vital parameter and boom goes your engine.

    Feel free to message me if you want to talk some more that way we don't continue to blow this thread up. Lol.

  9. #69
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    Car made 604/570 std smoothing 0 sae was 590 something
    Afr was perfect. Completely stock except gutted cats

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by kenand1988 View Post
    Car made 604/570 std smoothing 0 sae was 590 something
    Afr was perfect. Completely stock except gutted cats
    That is pretty darn good man, solid numbers! Keep your pulleys stock or go no higher than 5% on a lower pulley and then go E50- E60. You may actually be able to run full E with your version of the LT4 fueling system, but fuel econ will take a larger hit than E50 or E60 mix.

    Whatever the case.. just know the more pulley you add the less E your system may be able to support. I have a 12% pulley which was making 13 psi but the fuel system would not let me run anything higher than like E20 so I swapped down to a 5% now I can run around E60 no problem. If you ever consider swapping your lower pulley and want to run anything higher than a 5% I got that spare 12% DSX Tuning pulley I'd be happy to sell you.
    Last edited by ZLRob; 11-18-2022 at 09:44 PM.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZLRob View Post
    That is pretty darn good man, solid numbers! Keep your pulleys stock or go no higher than 5% on a lower pulley and then go E50- E60. You may actually be able to run full E with your version of the LT4 fueling system, but fuel econ will take a larger hit than E50 or E60 mix.

    Whatever the case.. just know the more pulley you add the less E your system may be able to support. I have a 12% pulley which was making 13 psi but the fuel system would not let me run anything higher than like E20 so I swapped down to a 5% now I can run around E60 no problem. If you ever consider swapping your lower pulley and want to run anything higher than a 5% I got that spare 12% DSX Tuning pulley I'd be happy to sell you.
    I'd like to stay on the crap 91 for now. I used E50 in the mustang and its kind of a pain since the only station is half an hour away. I live in a city which is far from a lot of stuff. One of the reasons I got rid of the mustang and went to the corvette was being able to use 91 and still make decent power. I think next will be an air intake. I'm not sure how accurate the boost reading is on vcm scanner because i have seen 11.2 before. I wanted to log the dyno pull but the operator fumbled it and it never got done. I also dyno'd it on the stock tune and its a mixed result because about 1/4 through the pull the tps shut to 80% and it was super rich. MAT was 160. The car had just been sitting for 15 minutes so thats why the temps got high. I THINK tps shut because of that, I can't see any other reason it would have done that. it made 540 and 525 with boost at only 7psi. Probably would have made a lot more. Now looking at the dyno with winpep I see afr crept down from 13 to 12.5 at the end. I do command an incremental richer lamda but its still a little lean, im wondering if that was from the afr reading coming from a sniffer. Might richen it up a little more.
    Last edited by kenand1988; 11-19-2022 at 02:52 AM.

  12. #72
    I know everyone has their own methods but I am not a huge fan of dyno tuning, also I am not a huge fan of dynos period. Too many variables you can control there where as in the real world things change. Especially the IATs and MATs.

    If you want to run 91 on the Z then you better be careful because knock is a big deal on these.

    One more thing, your TPS is not shutting down at 80% you are just logging a different channel, but your TPS is opening up all the way.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZLRob View Post
    I know everyone has their own methods but I am not a huge fan of dyno tuning, also I am not a huge fan of dynos period. Too many variables you can control there where as in the real world things change. Especially the IATs and MATs.

    If you want to run 91 on the Z then you better be careful because knock is a big deal on these.

    One more thing, your TPS is not shutting down at 80% you are just logging a different channel, but your TPS is opening up all the way.
    The dyno wasnt really to tune it with since it was just 3 back to back pulls. Couldn't really do much between them. I did want to make sure the wideband was accurate though.

    I know the throttle was closing. I've logged many pulls where the throttle will stay 100% open but the stock tune pull on the dyno had it initially open to 100% then close to 80% also the boost number is low so the throttle was for sure not open all the way.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZLRob View Post
    I know everyone has their own methods but I am not a huge fan of dyno tuning, also I am not a huge fan of dynos period. Too many variables you can control there where as in the real world things change. Especially the IATs and MATs.

    If you want to run 91 on the Z then you better be careful because knock is a big deal on these.

    One more thing, your TPS is not shutting down at 80% you are just logging a different channel, but your TPS is opening up all the way.
    Sent you a pm

  15. #75
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    You have to log the proper channels to get the actual boost level and throttle angle on some of the cars. Especially the Camaro's and Corvettes. The "Boost" PID in Scanner is wrong. It will falsely show that your boost is falling off up top because it is referencing a generic MAP value that is also falling off. You have to monitor Intake Manifold Absolute Pressure - Hi Res and Barometric Pressure, then create a custom math PID and log this. Then you will see the real boost numbers and they wont fall off up top. Some of the newer Camaro's you have to log the Manifold Absolute Pressure PID - Hi Res. Sounds the same but they are different. Search available PID's by typing in "Manifold Absolute" and then playing with what to log.

    Also, for throttle blade angle, you have to monitor the non SAE PID. So you search for throttle position and say "NO, I know what I'm doing".
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  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by TriPinTaZ View Post
    You have to log the proper channels to get the actual boost level and throttle angle on some of the cars. Especially the Camaro's and Corvettes. The "Boost" PID in Scanner is wrong. It will falsely show that your boost is falling off up top because it is referencing a generic MAP value that is also falling off. You have to monitor Intake Manifold Absolute Pressure - Hi Res and Barometric Pressure, then create a custom math PID and log this. Then you will see the real boost numbers and they wont fall off up top. Some of the newer Camaro's you have to log the Manifold Absolute Pressure PID - Hi Res. Sounds the same but they are different. Search available PID's by typing in "Manifold Absolute" and then playing with what to log.

    Also, for throttle blade angle, you have to monitor the non SAE PID. So you search for throttle position and say "NO, I know what I'm doing".
    Do you have a channel and layout config you could share

  17. #77
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    My channel config wont help without the proper math PIDs built. All of the info that you need to accomplish this has been posted on this site before. I gave you the name of the PID's above already. Manifold pressure minus barometric pressure is the math used to determine boost pressure.
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  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by TriPinTaZ View Post
    My channel config wont help without the proper math PIDs built. All of the info that you need to accomplish this has been posted on this site before. I gave you the name of the PID's above already. Manifold pressure minus barometric pressure is the math used to determine boost pressure.
    Wouldn't the channel and layout config already have the math built into it?

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenand1988 View Post
    Wouldn't the channel and layout config already have the math built into it?
    No, it would reference user math config which is a different file taht you don't have either. I suppose I could upload all my stuff, including the math, that I have spent a lot of time and effort building over the years. But the reality is, I found that information on this forum. I pointed you in the right direction. Now go do some leg work and get what you're looking for.
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  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by TriPinTaZ View Post
    No, it would reference user math config which is a different file taht you don't have either. I suppose I could upload all my stuff, including the math, that I have spent a lot of time and effort building over the years. But the reality is, I found that information on this forum. I pointed you in the right direction. Now go do some leg work and get what you're looking for.
    Thats fine. I can set it up myself but it helps to have a good config to start off of. I'm not sure why people are so reluctant to hand over a cfg file because it honestly doesn't help unless you know how to use what it is measuring so why the secrecy and protection. Holding onto it simply because it took someone awhile to obtain seems petty as well. It's not like I asked for a complete tune and ripped off someone's livelihood. Seems like it is a lot to ask for these days to get more than a response of "go look for yourself". You guys do realize that's like dropping someone in a labrinyth of tunnels with a flashlight lol.