Assistance converting Cam specs into HP Tuners tables

[dwallaker117]

Hey everyone,

I've been digging around the forum for the last couple days, but I can't find exactly what I'm after. I just need to know how to take the info on my cam spec sheet and turn that into info I can punch into HP Tuners. I'm trying to understand the process of taking the specs, converting them into usable numbers that I can punch into HP Tuners and get going. Any help is appreciated!


Here's the cam card:

Capture.JPG

Here is the section in HP Tuners that I'm referring to (From my stock read. Car was originally a 6.4):

HP Tuners.JPG

Here's my mod list:

My car: 2018 Dodge Challenger T/A 392
Transmission: Manual
- Clutch McLeod RTX twin disc PART # 6344907M (1000 HP)
Intake: Corsa Closed Box Air Intake W/Power Core Filter (PN 468646)
Throttle body: Stock 6.4L / 392 throttle body

Spark Plugs: NGK LZTR7AIX-13 (5107) Iridium (1 step colder)

Custom Grind Camshaft
- Specs (See Picture Above)
- MMX Cam Phase Limiter (PN CAM-5761)
- PSI 1516 ML Beehive Springs
- Trend .105 Wall CNC Premium Pushrods
- Hellcat non-MDS lifters

411 Stroker Kit by MMX
- Forged Mahle 2618 Pistons, 4.090 Bore, inverted dome design, grafal Anti-friction coating on skirts
- 1mm 1mm, 2mm Stainless steel rings w/napier 2nd ring
- Forged Molnar 3.900 Stroke Crankshaft
- Forged Molnar 6.25 Connecting Rods w/ 7/16 ARP bolts
- .200" Wall H13 DLC Tool Steel Wrist Pin Upgrade
- Coated Rod Bearings
- Premium Main Bearings

ARP Head Studs

Cometic MLX 5 Layer Head Gasket
- .054 Thickness

Oil Squirter Blockoff Plugs

160* thermostat

American Racing Headers - Long tubes
- 2" Primaries to 3" collector
- Catless connection pipes

Fore Innovations L2 Fuel system (dual Pump)
- Regulator set to 55psi currently (please let me know if you'd like this set to a different value)
- Dual Walbro 525LPH Fuel Pumps
- -8 PTFE Feed and return lines
- FC2 controller
- Microglass Filter Media

Deutchwerks 95lb Injectors PN 17U-00-0095-8

Gen 5 Whipple 3.0L
- Whipple fuel rails
- Whipple air-to-water intercooler

AEM Series X Wideband O2 Sensor & Gauge (PN 30-0334)

Oil Cooler

Barton Shifter Assembly

Compression with 411 Kit & .054 Head gasket should be approx. 9.5:1 (Per MMX)


Thank you.

[james1595]

to make it short and simple. the computer will always assume the camshaft is the same from factory. no matter what. so for a 392, max camshaft exhaust advance is 134. based on your cam specs, you would start at 134, then retard it from there. there are a few posts that go in depth into this, but that is the basic basics of it

[dwallaker117]

Thanks for the reply James1595. How did you figure out that 134* was max exhaust advance?

[james1595]

If you use the scanner, you can log it. But its a known on hptuners, kind of like the 5.7 is 125.

[dwallaker117]

Okay. The car currently doesn't run, so I guess it should be commanding full exhaust advance while cranking and I can probably log that?

Also, I see on the stock table, the exhaust max is set to 138* - why is that set to 4* more than full advance? How do they come up with that number? Is the "Intake Lock Pin" and "Exhaust Lock Pin" the same thing as the centerline spec on my cam card?

Apologies for the questions. I can turn a wrench but tuning is a whole new world to me so I've never really had to think about any of this until now.

[james1595]

From what ive learned, lock pin is a default position in case something happens that may hurt the motor. And for the max, im assuming its more a worse case scenario, because it will never reach that number under normal circumstances

[dwallaker117]

Okay. So after reading other posts, and trying to figure out "Ground in advance" and what you've told me, I made some adjustments to my tune.
Updated Cam.JPG

Anyone want to look at my Cam specs above and my current tune settings and tell me if I'm in the zone or if I'm about to cause myself some trouble?

[james1595]

The tables that need adjusted are under the desired angle, wot desired angle, catylyst, and misc angle. The the tables you agjusted i think are more of the limits, while the ones below are for active driving

[PurpleRam]

The tables that need adjusted are under the desired angle, wot desired angle, catylyst, and misc angle. The the tables you agjusted i think are more of the limits, while the ones below are for active driving

X 2 , one you lock the cam into a position(cam phaser) it's different ball game. @50 233/247 cam specs you sure as crap don't want that thing moving around.....Un less your me and have fly cut the crap out of custom Gibtec pistons.

[dwallaker117]

Thanks for the help. My current tune I now have the car able to fire up (takes a couple tries) and idle when cold. It will continue to idle (reading a bit lean still) and I can even rev it freely. However, if I turn it off and try to start again - warm start is not happy. I've attached my tune and datalog, I'll also include what *I* think the next changes might be to the tune, so maybe someone can compare the two and tell me if I'm on the right track or if I'm just spinning my wheels. I'd be most appreciative.
2018 challenger 30 DW Inj Data Rev 5.hpt
Challenger Datalog 5 Cold Start Idle.hpl
2018 challenger 30 DW Inj Data Rev 6.hpt

[rockystock]

I'd recommend adding about 10 percent to your startup airflow table (the whole thing).

Just for info - your cam probably will advance a couple degrees more after it starts up (mine goes from 125 prior to start to 127+ at full advance - 5.7 numbers). Your cam will probably go from ~132 to ~134...

For tuning, you don't need any data from your new camshaft. The only importance of the new cam numbers are what you expect to get from it in terms of performance.

The tables and parameters you've highlighted there simply tell the PCM which VVT spark tables to use. I'd leave 'em stock. If you look under your Spark tab, you will see a toggle set to disable the VVT spark tables. The stock 392s don't use most of the VVT tables, so most of those settings are irrelevant. The only VVT tables that probably are used are your WOT Lockpin and WOT Thermal Lockpin tables.

According to MMX, your cam phase limiter allows 9 camshaft degrees / 18 crank degrees of movement. The crank degrees are most important for tuning.

That's a pretty hot cam - I suspect you'll see only a very slight difference by phasing it, but only one way to find out for sure. You will want to dive into the Neural Network Trainer if you want to use your new VVT range, because the stock neural network settings are FAR from your new cam. Your Training Values will look something like this:

Max Exhaust: 134
Min Exhaust: 116
Max Intake: 125
Min Intake: 107

Notice the difference between your max and min values is 18 degrees - your new range in crank degrees. Also notice the sum of your Max Exhaust and Min Intake is 241; same for the Min Exhaust and Max Intake. 241 is the original 392 cam's lobe separation angle, and cannot be changed in the tune. No big deal - it's still a big aftermarket cam, regardless of what the PCM wants to call it.

That's literally all you need in terms of new numbers: the new total sweep angle (based on the limiter), and an accurate set of new camshaft angle Training Values (based on the new limiter range). The rest is "simply" tuning the five VE tables in the NNT.

[dwallaker117]

I'd recommend adding about 10 percent to your startup airflow table (the whole thing).

Just for info - your cam probably will advance a couple degrees more after it starts up (mine goes from 125 prior to start to 127+ at full advance - 5.7 numbers). Your cam will probably go from ~132 to ~134...

For tuning, you don't need any data from your new camshaft. The only importance of the new cam numbers are what you expect to get from it in terms of performance.

The tables and parameters you've highlighted there simply tell the PCM which VVT spark tables to use. I'd leave 'em stock. If you look under your Spark tab, you will see a toggle set to disable the VVT spark tables. The stock 392s don't use most of the VVT tables, so most of those settings are irrelevant. The only VVT tables that probably are used are your WOT Lockpin and WOT Thermal Lockpin tables.

According to MMX, your cam phase limiter allows 9 camshaft degrees / 18 crank degrees of movement. The crank degrees are most important for tuning.

That's a pretty hot cam - I suspect you'll see only a very slight difference by phasing it, but only one way to find out for sure. You will want to dive into the Neural Network Trainer if you want to use your new VVT range, because the stock neural network settings are FAR from your new cam. Your Training Values will look something like this:

Max Exhaust: 134
Min Exhaust: 116
Max Intake: 125
Min Intake: 107

Notice the difference between your max and min values is 18 degrees - your new range in crank degrees. Also notice the sum of your Max Exhaust and Min Intake is 241; same for the Min Exhaust and Max Intake. 241 is the original 392 cam's lobe separation angle, and cannot be changed in the tune. No big deal - it's still a big aftermarket cam, regardless of what the PCM wants to call it.

That's literally all you need in terms of new numbers: the new total sweep angle (based on the limiter), and an accurate set of new camshaft angle Training Values (based on the new limiter range). The rest is "simply" tuning the five VE tables in the NNT.

Thanks for the rundown on this rockystock. It looks like I've been worried about the wrong stuff with the cam, and your explanation makes a lot of sense.
I saw that MMX says the limiter restricts it to 18 degrees, but the paperwork in the limiter kit says 14 degrees:

Cam Limiter Note.JPG

But if I account for only a 14 degree difference, I end up with this:
Max Exhaust: 134
Min Exhaust: 120
Max Intake: 125
Min Intake: 111

Those all total 245, which is not 241. So do I account for the extra 4* by taking them off the max exhaust/intake sides or am I still missing something?

[james1595]

Your factory cam has those numbers, but every cam is different, so theres no need to worry if yours is different

[dwallaker117]

Your factory cam has those numbers, but every cam is different, so theres no need to worry if yours is different

Thanks james1595.

Hm. The only reason I'm curious is because my stock training values are this:
Stock Training Values.JPG

And the specs in Engine > Airflow > Variable Camshaft are:
Stock Specs.JPG

So I guess since those don't match what rockystock posted, and the limiter value (18*) doesn't match what my instructions say (14*) I'm just trying to confirm that I should still enter

Max Exhaust: 134
Min Exhaust: 116
Max Intake: 125
Min Intake: 107

In the training values, or if the 4* difference will cause any issues with the tune. If it won't then great. If it will, then how would I account for that? Again, apologies for all the questions - just trying to understand this completely before I continue.

[rockystock]

I just checked - I have the same limiter (Comp 5761) and my logs show 14 crank degrees of total sweep.

For your Max Exhaust, you will want to select the highest value your setup can maintain. For example, I selected 127. My logs show occasional fluctuations by several tenths of a degree, and less often I will see 128 or so. But 127 is the highest average angle the cam can maintain. So check your logs while commanding a max advance (you can set your part throttle cam position table to 140) and see where your highest average is.

For your Min Exhaust, you can subtract 14 from your highest value. OR, you can also find out for sure where your minimum is by commanding something unattainable on the low end (say, 80 degrees) and see where it goes. Again, my setup is showing "exactly" 14 degrees from max to min exhaust.

It's easy to mix up the intake and exhaust values. Keep in mind that the Max Exhaust position is also the Min Intake position, and vice versa. So the sum of Max Exhaust and Min Intake is 241. Likewise, the sum of Min Exhaust and Max Intake is 241. Bottom line: you can find out all four of the necessary max and min values by logging both the exhaust cam center position and the intake cam center position channels. Logging both will also show you what your lobe separation value is (it should be around 241 - the sum of the intake and exhaust center position - and should maintain one exact value at every cam position). I've found it's easier to simply to forget thinking about where the cam lobes are actually sitting and just think in terms of the numbers. Beer definitely DOES NOT HELP when tuning the NNT

Setting the training values correctly is important because the NNT defines the five VE tables based on those angles.

I do not know for sure why the factory training values are not exactly set to the max and min values the cam can actually reach. I suspect it may be their way of slightly tweaking the network as a final "polish" to correct final stock fuel trims after much field testing, not sure...

[rockystock]

Here's a little bit of what the NNT will do. I've got my network tuned fairly well for a Flyin Ryan Performance "Mark 82" camshaft (.602/.602 lift, duration @ .050 220I/228E, 113 LSA I think). Fuel trims and AFR are within a few percent in most places (and within 2 percent at WOT). The graphs show the MK82 and the stock 392 cam, both at pressure ratio @0.97 (basically WOT). You can see that at the fully advanced position and ~5000 RPM (the red lines on the graphs), the stock network settings are off by nearly 20%. At 6000 RPM, stock network is off by 30%! Keep in mind this is only a mild cam.

FRP Cam - VE at WOT - Paint.pngStock 392 Cam - VE at WOT - Paint.png

[dwallaker117]

Yeah, I see what you're saying about entering the specs in the training fields. But I'm tuning SD and have the NN disabled. Was told with all my mods the trainer simply wasn't an option. I'll just keep trucking along and see if I can get lucky or glean a better understanding through trial and error. I appreciate all the input.

[rockystock]

Tuning SD, you might be better off disabling VVT as well. The NN basically adjusts the VE table in real time as the cam moves around. I tried tuning SD with VVT on - the fixed VE tables just couldn't adjust fueling fast enough for the moving cam.

[dwallaker117]

If I disable VVT, will it just stay at full advance all the time then? Right now when it idles exh. sits at 134 and intake sits at 107. When I rev it, exhaust moves to like 129 and int moves to 113 before coming back down to the original values.

[rockystock]

If I disable VVT, will it just stay at full advance all the time then? Right now when it idles exh. sits at 134 and intake sits at 107. When I rev it, exhaust moves to like 129 and int moves to 113 before coming back down to the original values.

Yes it will stay at full advance. When VVT is enabled, the cam moves according to the (exhaust camshaft) tables located in Airflow -> Variable Camshaft

A phaser lock would keep the camshaft physically fixed at full advance. By disabling VVT, you may see minimal flutter as the cam might move +/- 0.5 degrees or so.

From the looks of my mild cam tuning, without VVT I'd miss out on maybe 10-20 Hp/Tq at WOT.

I like running mine fully retarded for normal driving/cruising because it helps keep the exhaust noise down. I also run the "Max TIP" cam tables, so when I accelerate more than just a light acceleration, the cam advances and gives me an additional 10-20% of VE for a bit more torque. Plus it sounds pretty cool - a subtle "oooooowaahhhh" sound as the cam moves and the exhaust gets louder, all at about the same RPM.