2019 Mustang 5.0 twin turbo 1/8th mile detonation issues on 106 octane low boost.

[Zapo]

That's great power at that boost level, but why is it tanking above 6500 rpm?

The GDI pressure is lagging in the middle and up top the blend isn't increasing as more flow is available. You can command 90% blend and then use max injection angle to preserve mid-range pressure. This would cut the blend in the middle to below 70% but then allow 75 or more up top.

The knock data scares me a bit. If it's real knock I would be limiting the timing to values that result in little or no knock reductions. It seems like the timing is a bit low at that load, especially with meth, but it could be normal for a turbo setup.

On the cylinder knock retard, that is the retard applied to just that cylinder. Though, your SDLF is set to 3, which I don't know what causes. I only have experience using 0 and 4. Stock and Whipple use 4 at high rpm, while Roush and other Fords use 0.

On another note, your cam timing isn't really cooperating. It's not switching to OP until 4000 rpm which is probably slowing spool up. There are various things that could cause this, but one thing that can be done that helps other things also, is to have the highest load row of the Drivability cam timing to match OP. That way even if it doesn't switch to OP it still uses the right cam timing.

Thank you for hanging with this thread, it does help to have someone to attempt to reason this stuff out. Hopefully this thread will help others a little as well. Tuning the gen 3 coyote is difficult and those who do it successfully are rare, and they understanbly guard their info.

1. I was only watching the GDI pressure at the top of the pull, I will have to work on the midrange, but I don't really understand "using max injection angle to preserve midrange pressure" I assume less angle means less pressure drop? How is this better than just adjusting the max blend allowable table?

2. Yea not loving the knock, It seem so odd that these ecus will add timing until knock and then work from there, I can limit that then make it run off the actual table (leave retard possible), I have not tried that yet was just letting it do what it likes, I wonder if never letting it see any knock actually makes more power, or if its so sensitive that it is actually finding the best timing already. My 2014 supercharged coyote with meth, ran great letting it add timing, and then it would pull hard if meth had an issue. IT liked timing much more than this car. And would run up to 20 deg timing at 700 rwhp (that is as far as I took it on stock motor).

3. I have some more time tomorrow, will do some runs with SDLF set to 4 at high RPM.

4. I have fought cam timing on this car since day one and sometimes I can't get into OP for most of a gear. And yes it does hurt spool. Will try your trick to tweak the high load driveability table, maybe making it spool faster will help it jump into OP more quickly as well. EDIT here, I was looking at logs and VCT schedule mode seems to go from "best fuel economy" to "fuel economy" to "OP" not from drivability to OP. Is that normal? I assume I would just tweak fuel economy table instead?

[engineermike]

You're welcome!

1. Think of the "warm blend" as a limit that it won't exceed. 90% seems to be the optimum for a couple of reasons, so don't let the warm blend hold it back if it has the capability to reach closer to 90%. Let it calculate the actual blend, which will be the lowest of the warm blend, max angle, or SOI-EOIclip. The problem with using warm blend to preserve fuel pressure is that it won't work correctly. Think of the case of raising the boost or commanding a richer lambda; it will still try to maintain the same blend % at the new higher total fuel flow and suddenly you will have pressure drop again. Max angle will work to maintain fuel pressure even if fuel flow demand increases. Each control has a purpose, and the output works as such.
a) Set the warm blend to 90% at anything over about .75 load. Higher than this and you risk instantaneous lean when demand for port injection increases.
b) Set SOI to about 330 deg. Any earlier/higher and the fuel will just wet the piston and not cool the air as intended. There's also a mystery limit you will find that won't allow SOI earlier/higher and this number decreases with rpm.
c) Set max injector angle to preserve mid-range pressure. This max angle isn't the final number, as it goes into the max injector angle calculation which also I believe included pump volumetric efficiency curve. The logged max angle actually decreases with rpm slightly and will only limit it in the mid-range, where the pressure droop occurs.
d) Set EOI clip using dyno data. If none of the other limits come into play, the EOI can go back well into the compression stroke. If it goes too late, you don't have enough atomization time. I've found on the dyno that an EOI clip of 70-80 won't lose any power. This is also just an input into a more complex calculation so you'll log numbers over 100 if you set it at 70. The EOI clip automatically advances as rpm increases (the calculation I mentioned) because the time for atomization is less and less.

2. I don't like the way Ford runs it into knock repeatedly either. They seem to run the ecoboosts and the 5.0 this way, but not the GT500. Personally, I think it's too risky but Ford doesn't seem to break a lot of pistons on stock engines so I suppose they know what they are doing. Our engines aren't stock though. I set mine up with the borderline taking it to about 3 deg below the knock threshold, then allowing knock advance to take it up another 2 deg. On most of my pulls I don't get any knock at all as a result. You mention your 2014 supercharged liking timing more; I've been contemplating SC vs turbo timing requirements. It seems the supercharged 5.0 likes 20-23 deg, but just recently we dropped a turbo gen3 from 23 to 19 and it lost nothing on the dyno. Ecoboost runs <5 deg in many cases. My theory is that the retarded timing adds exhaust heat, which drives the turbo and allows more WG opening and lower drive pressure, leading to reduced exhaust pumping losses. Your turbo car us making great power at really low timing. This is win-win because the engine stresses are much lower with retarded timing as well, especially when coupled with the lower compression ratio.

3. I'm not recommending using SDLF of 4. Mine was like that but I changed to 0 like Roush. Using 4 appears to switch it back to global retard. I've never used 3 so I can't tell you what that does.

4. In VCM scanner, a VCT mode of "fuel economy" is actually optimum drivability. "Best fuel economy" is optimum fuel economy. Yours is running in "fuel economy" (drivability) at WOT and <4000 rpm, so you'll need to tweak the high load drivability cam timing to get it to OP cam timing before and during the transition to OP. In order for it to go into OP cam timing it has to meet BOTH the throttle position AND the load requirement. But that's not all. The "Max MAP above BP" curve is more important than it first appears. The calculated MAP has to be close to the Max MAP above BP at WOT in order for it to enter OP cam timing. You might just lower the Max MAP above BP, but then it will actually limit your torque demand. With a turbo, it's impossible to set this correctly because the MAP can be high or low at WOT and you still want it to demand high torque and enter OP. For a turbo, the only real work-around I have found is to set the Max MAP over BP high enough to allow sufficient torque demand, and if it won't enter OP soon enough then just use the highest load row of the Drivability table to send the cams to the desired WOT cam timing.

[engineermike]

On another note, you can proactively pull timing from just #1 since it's knocking bad on the meth.

[Zapo]

Todays dyno findings.

1. We were able to knock about .5 second off spool up by getting the cam timing in drivability mode to be closer to OP. OP still seems to wait for 4000 RPM but at least we get there faster.
2. Playing with DI timing ended up with max inj angle of 143 before I had no dips of DI rail pressure in the midrange. Not sure if this is right, I ended up with less blend % than the way I was doing it. although it made good power
3. I played with boost control to make sure I had no Boost drop at the top of the RPM range, but still peak power is at 6400 RPM and it falls off pretty good by 7000 RPM, don't know what is causing this. (valve springs?)
4. Early in the day when engine was fully up to temp but not heat soaked, I was able to make a 91 octane pump gas 874 uncorrect Hp and at the end of the day with it fully heat soaked (but still very low ambient temps) I made 903hp uncorrected after I added some octane. This is pretty crazy for a coyote with a built bottom end (mention that only because its now 10 to 1 compression) but otherwise stock at 11 psi boost. The low mount turbo kit is on modified stock headers and VSR 6262 turbos. It has a super heavy set of Foose 20" wheels and MT SS 305/35ZR20 tire. But that is not the crazy part. The fuel system is dead stock minus 47# port injectors and a boost a pump. I know the meth is helping here, and the system is out of fuel pressure right now as we a dropping about 8 psi at peak on the 900 hp pull.
5. The pump gas and the octane boosted logs show how much this combo still wants the octane. i am sure it would make 950hp on the high octane fuel in the same conditions the pump gas made 874. The heat soaked pump gas pulls were down to the low 800's before I added octane. But I know the fuel system would not support a 950hp hero pull, so I won't try that. The octane added tune is the same as pump gas, it just added its allowed 5 deg of timing and stayed there.

I am sure there is more in this tune, but I probably put 30 dyno pulls on this combo this week, might be time to wait for spring before I wear it out. Also note that all hp numbers on this thread were STD before this post, but for today, because I mentioned fuel system limits, they are uncorrected. (about 3% less). Some say STD correction is cheating but my dyno seems cheap on hp when comparing to 1/4 mph to weight calcs done on other combos.

Logs for best pump gas, best octane added runs and final tune at attached.
Smurf 2 pump gas and meth and 106 octane compare UNCORRECTED.jpg

[engineermike]

2. Something screwy is going on there and may be due to the 1.25 max DC you have for the DI injectors. I hate to say it but to really get your arms around the GDI control, you're going to need to log DI pump duty cycle and also EOI INTAKE, not compression. This will tell more of the story and reveal what moves to make next. Blend should be able to ramp back up at high rpm.

Funny story I've been tuning a turbo Gen3 mustang also running 6262 turbos and also lowered compression ratio (9.5/1). It's on E85 and was running 24 deg timing, but it hit 900 rwhp SAE at 13 psi boost. We later learned it made the same power at 19 deg timing. Cranked boost up and eventually cracked 1100 at a little over 20 psi. His power noses over hard at 7000 rpm and I fought that for weeks and basically ran out of ideas. His MAF was actually falling off after 7000 though where yours seems to still be rising slightly. Perhaps it's a characteristic of these turbos or perhaps valve float, though Hellion seems to think the stock springs are good for well over that.

[Zapo]

[QUOTE=engineermike;711454]2. Something screwy is going on there and may be due to the 1.25 max DC you have for the DI injectors. I hate to say it but to really get your arms around the GDI control, you're going to need to log DI pump duty cycle and also EOI INTAKE, not compression. This will tell more of the story and reveal what moves to make next. Blend should be able to ramp back up at high rpm.

Had to go hit it one more time today. Put a bigger Meth jet in it added some timing, leaned out the fuel a touch and went for the hero pull that I should not have. But I got away with it. I did try knocking MAX DC back to stock .95 did not seem to change much because when I added max injection angle the pressure dip cam back . Did make 966 hp and it liked up to 20 deg of timing. I am done there for now, learned a lot on this one, found a lot more I need to know. I did find DI pump duty to log, but mistakenly logged "SOI intake" instead of EOI. I am truly out of DI pump where the dip happens as it is 100% duty on the pump regulator. So this is close to the max usage of the stock DI side, although a little more low pressure pump feed into the DI might make a difference.
966 uncorrected hp 11.9 psi boost 20pec c12 and octane booster.hpl

[engineermike]

Looking good and really great power for only 12 psi. Looks like it likes the race gas better than meth injection, probably due to distribution as you figure.

Note that the GDI pump is at 100% DC when the dip happens but above that, the GDI pump drops all the way back to 50% DC. I'm not happy until my GDI pump is at 100% duty cycle the whole way. Don't worry about it going lean, as the computer will automatically supplement with port injector flow when the GDI can't keep up. I'm certain you can get the blend back up to 75% or more at high rpm.

Post the dyno graph!

[Zapo]

smurf 2 best uncorrected.jpg

[engineermike]

So 12 psi and 20 deg timing netted 965 rwhp at 10/1 compression. Not bad! I’d really like to know what it would do on good quality 93 and no methanol, more boost, and obviously less timing. I’m thinking like 14-16 deg timing and whatever boost you can run without knock. As a comparison the gt500’s are 9.5/1 and can run 15+ psi and over 20 deg timing on 93.

[veeefour]

This still has a lot to fix, your inferred MAP falls out form +2 bar to 1,6 bar, you desired air load is set to low.

This is either from being out of fuel and your MAF period landing in 80's and trying to compensate, or your SD being not ready for that
boost level - might be 2 at the time. You may be making good power on a dyno but this will not work so well if you take in on the road.

To summarize even tho your lambda looks ok it not injecting fuel correctly.

You hit cyl press. limit briefly bit this works in your favor, slows down the advance rate hence you hit a good timing.

Torque model and request is OK-ish not causing any troubles.

[Zapo]

This still has a lot to fix, your inferred MAP falls out form +2 bar to 1,6 bar, you desired air load is set to low.

This is either from being out of fuel and your MAF period landing in 80's and trying to compensate, or your SD being not ready for that
boost level - might be 2 at the time. You may be making good power on a dyno but this will not work so well if you take in on the road.

To summarize even tho your lambda looks ok it not injecting fuel correctly.

You hit cyl press. limit briefly bit this works in your favor, slows down the advance rate hence you hit a good timing.

Torque model and request is OK-ish not causing any troubles.

Yes there is lots more to know. Especially on the SD side, I have done no tuning there, don't really know how. I have your base tune VEE that I purchased last year and a few other sample files and used the SD tables from whatever ran the best. Trans tuning is the same program minus shift points and the torque on shifts. I have worked hard on the MAF curve, full throttle timing and shift points to get it to "work" but it's still a pretty good learning curve on this end. It does dyno much better then it Drag races and that really is not my goal. It is a drag and drive car, so fast yet reasonably dependable is the goal more than dyno queen.

[veeefour]

Yes there is lots more to know. Especially on the SD side, I have done no tuning there, don't really know how. I have your base tune VEE that I purchased last year and a few other sample files and used the SD tables from whatever ran the best. Trans tuning is the same program minus shift points and the torque on shifts. I have worked hard on the MAF curve, full throttle timing and shift points to get it to "work" but it's still a pretty good learning curve on this end. It does dyno much better then it Drag races and that really is not my goal. It is a drag and drive car, so fast yet reasonably dependable is the goal more than dyno queen.

Hit me up on email, will send you an update regarding SD - few things changed on my boosted files recently. But we wont get nowhere without hooking up a MAP sensor.

I never send anybody the same file that runs on my personal car to be honest. My car has much more aggressive tune compared to yours.
Something brakes no big deal for me, completely different story with remote customers when you cant feel the car.