09 Chall RT + TSP STG3 CAM NA - constant false knock after 5,7kRPM

[Pablito[PL]]

Gentlemen,
I would need Your support this time.
Recently I've build 5.7VVT with TSP cam (CompCam springs 26918).

Knock sensors are constantly reporting increase of noise after 5.7kRPM.

I have tried:
1. 93oct gas + Lucas octane booster
2. Timing decreased from 18* to 10* and less
3. AFR 11.5, 12.0, 12.5

Nothing helps, noise is still there.
Few days ago, i've decided to install LTs, as a potential reason, of temperature raise, blocked catalytic converters (deleted).
The amplitude of KR has dropped minimal. Maybe it helped with temperature decrease, or was some rattling noise. I don't know.

Or maybe, there is something with a tune.
Engine was tuned by VE. Neural network off, cam phaser off. Both banks and VE checked with widebands.

No idea what is the reason.

May I ask some experienced Colleagues for support?

[Spray-Cam Hell-Ram]

Smooth out your VE tables coming from the 5200 rpm and going into the 5800 rpm range. Seems to be a bit dramatic and could very well be leaning you out too much right at the 5700 rpm mark too. Also, in the "Fuel" tab and then the "Cutoff/ DFCO" section, I would go into your rpm limits for Drive and raise those up to 6500 rpms or so throughout the table. There are a few other things I might change but most being likely irrelevant to your issue. I initially had this same cam in my 16 Ram and it is a difficult one to get everything dialed in just right on for sure. Good luck!

[LilSick]

Did you cc it? How much static compression does it have and where did you put the cam?

[Pablito[PL]]

Smooth out your VE tables coming from the 5200 rpm and going into the 5800 rpm range. Seems to be a bit dramatic and could very well be leaning you out too much right at the 5700 rpm mark too. Also, in the "Fuel" tab and then the "Cutoff/ DFCO" section, I would go into your rpm limits for Drive and raise those up to 6500 rpms or so throughout the table. There are a few other things I might change but most being likely irrelevant to your issue. I initially had this same cam in my 16 Ram and it is a difficult one to get everything dialed in just right on for sure. Good luck!

Thanks for the tip, maybe that is worth of trying, however that steep drop is a result of measuring AFR with the wideband. It actually might happend when engine flow setup is running out of breath.
Having this shape, if I set 0.0112 fuel enrichment, then I'm getting sollid 12.5:1 AFR across the RPM range (0.0688+0.0112) so it have sense in my opinion and it reflects correctly mathematical airflow.
What i have tried, was to manipulate FA Power enrichment (fuel adder factor) around problematic spot. Did not helped much on KR noise.
Also I'm affraid if I will edit properly dialed VE, i will lose correct air flow model, and from then fuel enrichment will just be experimental, not controlled.

[Pablito[PL]]

Did you cc it? How much static compression does it have and where did you put the cam?

May I ask You to elaborate what You mean?
It is a stock 5.7 Eagle block, and Eagle heads & Pistons. Static CR is 10.5:1.
Cam was installed as the stock was, on the same signs in TDC.

[LilSick]

Oh my bad, I read /recently built 5.7/ so I pictured pistons and machine work. So it is a stock 10.5 to 1 motor. Ok.

The new cam - you locked the vvt, lined up the marks, and did not check intake centerline with a degree wheel and a indicator???

[Pablito[PL]]

Oh my bad, I read /recently built 5.7/ so I pictured pistons and machine work. So it is a stock 10.5 to 1 motor. Ok.

The new cam - you locked the vvt, lined up the marks, and did not check intake centerline with a degree wheel and a indicator???

No probs Thank You for spending Your time.

To be very honest with you, I didn't check on the degree wheel. Just set on the marks. VVT was installed with limiter only. I realize that the position of the Cam must match the commanded position. Any deviation however would likely be noticed in the readings of the wide bands between the test runs - once VE has been set up and downloaded to PCM.
Does this make sense or are you implying that the VVT ​​can swing from time to time causing problems? My guess is this: if there is a chaotic factor, I would again notice it on wide bands sensors between the test runs.

[DB5249]

send me a file i will revise it send it back to you and see how it goes from there

[Pablito[PL]]

send me a file i will revise it send it back to you and see how it goes from there

Thank You for support, The file is attached in the first post.

[DB5249]

46 - Dlugie kolektory Revised .hpt

Lots of things you need to work on in tune. injector data not sure if it is stock. also need to know if you have a cam phase limiter installed. phase is enabled with timing advancement close to what that cam should want. power enrich is fixed and so on. as far as what you did for ve tuning there is 2 tables and you either need to adjust both bank one and 2 separately and set graphs up to log ltft and shft banks one and 2, or disable the second bank in ve and make a graph to log stft+ltft bank one and 2 together. set your cell hits to 5

[rays04gtx]

Injector data in his attached Tune file is not stock..........

Here's a stock 09 5.7 (File starts with 4174)

VE is Fine, I'd like to see the difference between the two be closer....... cam is not moving stays @125, I don't see any Injector duty being logged ?

It never pulls above 81.4% calc load(not absolute load that's listed in the 98% range) and fuel mass is above .0680/.0700 during WOT.

Look at Time stamp 3:036.038 , Cylinder #2 is firing, Fuel mass is .0713g PW is 15.2MS, and Knock Sensor #2 is at 3.17 V......Ve for B2 is 104% .....it's not a fuel issue, it's either mech or its that crazy a$$ Airflow , yes it's never a straight line but that saw blade you got going on is not good

tune 0802 is your current tune with some airflow changes, and VE bank 2 was copied and pasted from VE Bank 1, I would like to make Aircharge and Pratio tables the same values, but didn't...they don't have to be identical, but when they are it's less "math" the PCm has to do when it's jumping back-in-fourth between those to tables.

Try logging Pulse width for Cylinders 2,4,6,8. I'd like to see how consistent MS in on B2 ... ....and dumb question.....are the pushrods the correct length? you should have between ..060-080 preload, less the .040 and the push rod can "bottom out" that can cause false knock above 4000-4500RPMs..., over .90 preload and I don't care whose lifters they are the pushrod will "hang" there for a millisecond as the lifter goes down over the nose of the cam lobe, and that can also cause false knock(if the closing of the valve is not under full control and "snaps" back onto the seat it'll create false knock.

timestamp 3:33.500 @ 3700RPMS Knock voltage is normal background noise of .91v #5 firing,@3:33.510 RPM is 3837, #3 is firing and Kv jumps to 1.24(normal jump at that RPM) at 4785RPMs you are on the high side of normal, but at 4815 both banks jump to over 2v , fuel mass is .0700g,PW is 16.2MS AFR is .0860(11.60) so it's not fuel.

We have the used that TSP3 cam and their stage 4 some where in the neighborhood of 20 different applications, with less fueling and 20* more timing, over the X-mas vacation we did a 2010 5.7 Challenger with a custom cam 225/230 @.050 , .575/600 112 LSA (close to TSP3) WOT timing is 24* for 91/93. Kv never got above 1.1v.

[DB5249]

use the file i sent you

[LilSick]

all that timing and the fuel cut off at 6000?

[DB5249]

yup, when he sends a log to verify we can add some more rpm to it. but if the valves are not at least stock valves they won't hold up to the spring tension and snap. jasper rebuilt motors for Mopar have china valves in them

[LilSick]

yeah that was the first thing that jumped out at me when originally reading the first post: springs from comp

psi - til i die

how much seat pressure does it have? how much over the nose?

[DB5249]

not sure have to ask the man who started the thread. i just sent him a revised tune that should get him in the ballpark for his cam for fueling and it actually might like more timing at wot closer to 24 degrees depending on his altitude. but I have never come across a Mopar yet that cant handle at least 18 degrees with stock compression and a cam with springs. I have also seen people put cam kits in jasper motors, they snap valves. some guy who is a vendor for jasper said they are supposed to be better than the factory. well I pulled the heads off for him ran numbers on the valves and they were cheap china junk. got OEM valves and put it back together for him with no issues. but rocker shims and so on I try to recommend to everyone.

[Pablito[PL]]

not sure have to ask the man who started the thread. i just sent him a revised tune that should get him in the ballpark for his cam for fueling and it actually might like more timing at wot closer to 24 degrees depending on his altitude. but I have never come across a Mopar yet that cant handle at least 18 degrees with stock compression and a cam with springs. I have also seen people put cam kits in jasper motors, they snap valves. some guy who is a vendor for jasper said they are supposed to be better than the factory. well I pulled the heads off for him ran numbers on the valves and they were cheap china junk. got OEM valves and put it back together for him with no issues. but rocker shims and so on I try to recommend to everyone.

My Friend,
I really Appreciate Your efforts. I really want You to be on my side, but the revised Tune is a perfect example of how NOT to tune the car.
1. NEVER TURN OFF Torque management for transmission, unless You want to fry her.
2. VE Bank 2 shall never be turned off for speed density tuning, because Both Banks do not have equal flow, there always be a differences between them, and this is why are using widebands to dial both banks independently. The best approach would be to dial each cylinder individually at the last stage, and adjust the tables 34177-34184.
3. Sum of tables 36559+36551 shall always be equal to 228,5 in 5.7VVT
4. Why Did You mess with quantity of neurons and Weight and Biasses - has it been copied from somewhere?
5. Never change spark table unless You are 100% sure what You are doing. I will never put 20+ deg of advance until I'm 100% sure what is the root cause of false knock. 15 degrees minimum at WOT with completly zero transition form PART throttle? Man, no way.
6. Table 4480 - there is a reason to leave 6200 rpm just for few seconds, mostly because this rpm area is dedicated for WOT only, and will be used 2s approx.
7. Why did You changed manifold volume?
8. Why did You changed SRV factor 44288? Ther is no factory SRV in this car
9. Why have You commanded 128deg for exhaus camshaft on WOT, while max position in Eagles is 125? It is due to this specific CAM advance? If so, the calculations still have to represent what PCM takes as real value.
10. You have messed with My VE tables, but at the same time, You have changed ANN factors - why?

Please - do not get upset, but try to explain to me those points above.
Huge respect again for Your efforts, but I have to be 1000% what and why I'm changing.
Thanks!

[Pablito[PL]]

Injector data in his attached Tune file is not stock..........

Here's a stock 09 5.7 (File starts with 4174)

VE is Fine, I'd like to see the difference between the two be closer....... cam is not moving stays @125, I don't see any Injector duty being logged ?

It never pulls above 81.4% calc load(not absolute load that's listed in the 98% range) and fuel mass is above .0680/.0700 during WOT.

Look at Time stamp 3:036.038 , Cylinder #2 is firing, Fuel mass is .0713g PW is 15.2MS, and Knock Sensor #2 is at 3.17 V......Ve for B2 is 104% .....it's not a fuel issue, it's either mech or its that crazy a$$ Airflow , yes it's never a straight line but that saw blade you got going on is not good

tune 0802 is your current tune with some airflow changes, and VE bank 2 was copied and pasted from VE Bank 1, I would like to make Aircharge and Pratio tables the same values, but didn't...they don't have to be identical, but when they are it's less "math" the PCm has to do when it's jumping back-in-fourth between those to tables.

Try logging Pulse width for Cylinders 2,4,6,8. I'd like to see how consistent MS in on B2 ... ....and dumb question.....are the pushrods the correct length? you should have between ..060-080 preload, less the .040 and the push rod can "bottom out" that can cause false knock above 4000-4500RPMs..., over .90 preload and I don't care whose lifters they are the pushrod will "hang" there for a millisecond as the lifter goes down over the nose of the cam lobe, and that can also cause false knock(if the closing of the valve is not under full control and "snaps" back onto the seat it'll create false knock.

timestamp 3:33.500 @ 3700RPMS Knock voltage is normal background noise of .91v #5 firing,@3:33.510 RPM is 3837, #3 is firing and Kv jumps to 1.24(normal jump at that RPM) at 4785RPMs you are on the high side of normal, but at 4815 both banks jump to over 2v , fuel mass is .0700g,PW is 16.2MS AFR is .0860(11.60) so it's not fuel.

We have the used that TSP3 cam and their stage 4 some where in the neighborhood of 20 different applications, with less fueling and 20* more timing, over the X-mas vacation we did a 2010 5.7 Challenger with a custom cam 225/230 @.050 , .575/600 112 LSA (close to TSP3) WOT timing is 24* for 91/93. Kv never got above 1.1v.

Thanks a lot, I will review Your inpput.
Why actually You have coppied VE1 into VE2? Those are the same, and it was measured and confirmed with widebands.

Pushrods, everything is stock, just CompCam Valve springs 26918, Converter for 2800stall, and TSP Cam off course.
P2173, and P2175 in EngineDiagnostic->Airflow it is for potential problem with airflow calculations?
I have to think about it, however if there would be any problems with Airflow calculations, measured AFR wouldn't be solid, and allways commanded as I expected.
For this purpose, VE table must be set correctly, and then Power Enrichment will follow precisely as commanded.


I see You both Gentlemen are changing signifficantly FA Incr 44453. Changed factor from 0.0005 to 0.5 will push too much of fuel when I step on the pedal i think.


THANKS A MILLION for your efforts Gentlemen!
Let me please think about it, prepare myself and log the results.

[rays04gtx]

My Friend,
I really Appreciate Your efforts. I really want You to be on my side, but the revised Tune is a perfect example of how NOT to tune the car.
1. NEVER TURN OFF Torque management for transmission, unless You want to fry her.
2. VE Bank 2 shall never be turned off for speed density tuning, because Both Banks do not have equal flow, there always be a differences between them, and this is why are using widebands to dial both banks independently. The best approach would be to dial each cylinder individually at the last stage, and adjust the tables 34177-34184.
3. Sum of tables 36559+36551 shall always be equal to 228,5 in 5.7VVT
4. Why Did You mess with quantity of neurons and Weight and Biasses - has it been copied from somewhere?
5. Never change spark table unless You are 100% sure what You are doing. I will never put 20+ deg of advance until I'm 100% sure what is the root cause of false knock. 15 degrees minimum at WOT with completly zero transition form PART throttle? Man, no way.
6. Table 4480 - there is a reason to leave 6200 rpm just for few seconds, mostly because this rpm area is dedicated for WOT only, and will be used 2s approx.
7. Why did You changed manifold volume?
8. Why did You changed SRV factor 44288? Ther is no factory SRV in this car
9. Why have You commanded 128deg for exhaus camshaft on WOT, while max position in Eagles is 125? It is due to this specific CAM advance? If so, the calculations still have to represent what PCM takes as real value.
10. You have messed with My VE tables, but at the same time, You have changed ANN factors - why?

Please - do not get upset, but try to explain to me those points above.
Huge respect again for Your efforts, but I have to be 1000% what and why I'm changing.
Thanks!

I myself I'm on the fence about your #2 , I think when you are trying to find an Issue, make things as simple as possible, I also feel that tuning banks separately is more of a final detail....My one son and I differ on that point greatly

Curious Question Where did all the Jasper Engine talk come from , did I miss it in this thread ? I thought what you are working with is a stock 09 Long block with a cam (and new springs)

[Pablito[PL]]

yeah that was the first thing that jumped out at me when originally reading the first post: springs from comp

psi - til i die

how much seat pressure does it have? how much over the nose?

Kill me please, I have no idea.
Just installed the kit from Compcam 26918 (.6" conicals), and to answer I have to find in data sheet.
It is my 5th set, and never had any issues with high RPMS up to 7k. But first time with TSP Cam.
Maybe here lies the problem.