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Thread: Cannot get rid of TMA occurring when going from cruising to WOT

  1. #1
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    Cannot get rid of TMA occurring when going from cruising to WOT

    2016 Yukon with forged L83, heads, cam, ported L86 intake manifold/TB...yada...yada...yada...

    Got this thing dialed in as far as I can but each time I go from cruising to WOT, there is a slight hesitation before it shifts to the lowest gear. When I look at the log it shows TMA occurring right when I mash the pedal. Before anyone asks, I have raised and lowered all the virtual TQ tables, driver demand, Max TQ, Peak TQ and many , many pother parameters separately and tested each one to see how the truck responded. Too much Virtual TQ and it lowers the throttle position, too little and it causes more TMA to occur, etc. Spend many hours and several hundred logs testing and tuning to try to get this thing right and and this is as good as it gets.

    Any one able to look and tell me what is happening and what adjustments would get the TMA to go away as shown in the snip below? If you look at the log, you see it does perfect from a stand still but only when moving and you go WOT does his happen. If I can eliminate this lil nuance, I'd be happy but it is only occurring for .6 seconds so I can live with it if I cannot get it but would rather not. You see it in the log at the start of the 2nd and 4th WOT pull.

    Before I go wanna say thanks to you all for posting all the info as it has helped me understand and learn the process. Without you all, I would not of gotten this far with tuning it myself. You all rock!
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  2. #2
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    Have you tried fast torque exit and are you sure it's not traction? Usually fast torque exit will cause this.
    2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
    2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80

    ~Greg Huggins~
    Remote Tuning Available at ghugginstuning@gmail.com
    Mobile Tuning Available for North Georgia and WNC

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by GHuggins View Post
    Have you tried fast torque exit and are you sure it's not traction? Usually fast torque exit will cause this.
    Thank you Ghuggins, that is one of the perimeters I did change and as I said I did a before and after log and didn't see much difference. My fast TQ exit was a rather large number and I brought it down to match some of the tunes I found on here for the same situation and I didn't see that it made a difference so I left it as it is now in my tune.
    What should that number be?

    I doubt it is wheel spin as I have traction control off and it is an all-wheel drive, typically occurs cruising 55 or 60 to WOT. Friend of mine has a Silverado he sent me videos of him downshifting and it is instant however mine has this delay and the log shows that TMA.

    Initial research was showing fast torque exit or the air conditioning etc etc but that was occurring at 5900 RPMs this is directly off the throttle when I punch it to go WOT.

  4. #4
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    OK, to clarify - you are letting off of the throttle and then punching it? I honestly haven't looked at the log yet - find it better to get the info straight from the customer on things like this. If your letting off and then punching it - look at coast torque management in the trans and raise fast torque exit. There's other things too, but sounds like you already messed with all of that.

    Looks like from the screenshot that you are letting off and then stomping it - try the above.
    Last edited by GHuggins; 01-31-2023 at 01:41 PM.
    2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
    2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80

    ~Greg Huggins~
    Remote Tuning Available at ghugginstuning@gmail.com
    Mobile Tuning Available for North Georgia and WNC

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by GHuggins View Post
    OK, to clarify - you are letting off of the throttle and then punching it? I honestly haven't looked at the log yet - find it better to get the info straight from the customer on things like this. If your letting off and then punching it - look at coast torque management in the trans and raise fast torque exit. There's other things too, but sounds like you already messed with all of that.

    Looks like from the screenshot that you are letting off and then stomping it - try the above.
    Not letting of the throttle, just mashing it to the floor and there is a small delay in downshift as shown in the screen snip.

    What should fast TQ exit be or does it vary on mods/vehicle?

    Thanks Bro!
    Last edited by lynmup; 01-31-2023 at 01:50 PM.

  6. #6
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    Set it to 8192 and 6042 - top to bottom - how it was in your original tune. Also in that snip there wasn't tps, but your O2's went very lean, so either fueling is wrong, which could account for the tma on it's own - hint hint - or you let off. If you didn't let off then fueling is off in your MAF or VVE.

    There's quite a few things in your tune that I personally would do differently, but that could be said true for all.

    Did this issue start after changing the tip in settings or an attempt to fix?
    Last edited by GHuggins; 01-31-2023 at 02:26 PM.
    2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
    2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80

    ~Greg Huggins~
    Remote Tuning Available at ghugginstuning@gmail.com
    Mobile Tuning Available for North Georgia and WNC

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by GHuggins View Post
    Set it to 8192 and 6042 - top to bottom - how it was in your original tune. Also in that snip there wasn't tps, but your O2's went very lean, so either fueling is wrong, which could account for the tma on it's own - hint hint - or you let off. If you didn't let off then fueling is off in your MAF or VVE.

    There's quite a few things in your tune that I personally would do differently, but that could be said true for all.

    Did this issue start after changing the tip in settings or an attempt to fix?
    I'll try the Fast Exit settings as you stated but I looked at my previous tune and it was set to 6042 - 6000 when I had it remote tuned. My as found file shows it at 66 - 15. Regarding the Fuel, last time I dialed in my VVE, I messes up the DCFO and now it goes lean when I coast. currently the AFR is good and the O2s cycle when normal driving, just goes lean when I coast to a stop. That was my bad! Tip in was changed to trouble shoot this issue so it did not seem to make a difference so I'll change it back to what it was.

  8. #8
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    My parameters only go to 6042 to -6042.

  9. #9
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    The top one in my editor is set to Nm and the lower to lbft, so that's the difference. I used your base file to see what you had changed from what I assume was the original tune file. I don't see anything under dfco that had been messed with other than ect for dfco. There's a few rev limit changes - not sure on the no lift shift change since this is an auto.

    I assume it's been doing all of this since day one? Why it's getting corrected? Has it done it since stock or just since tuned? Your timing table and VVE both look odd to me, but if it's working - although I might revisit that VVE.

    I made some changes in this one for you to try. I did change the VVE - you can put it back, but this one should be safer for you either way. I also changed the VVE to where you don't have variable cam controls coming into play since it looks like your cam is locked. Changed some other stuff for you too.

    You still need to fix all of your alcohol stuff. I can post a factory E tune for you if you need it.
    Last edited by GHuggins; 02-01-2023 at 07:54 PM.
    2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
    2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80

    ~Greg Huggins~
    Remote Tuning Available at ghugginstuning@gmail.com
    Mobile Tuning Available for North Georgia and WNC

  10. #10
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    Thanks for looking at it, gonna compare it to my updated file with your recommended changes. I'll let you know once I go and test it. My hope is the fast TQ exit resolves this issue.

    Not certain what the VVE changes could help, as it goes, other than the Fuel cutoff, the vehicle is at stoich when idling, driving and WOT I am getting about .85, occasionally it dips to .86 but seems strong. I spent over two weeks dialing in the VVE and then dialed in the MAF. I prefer it to idle a little lean so it does not have the horrible fuel smell.

    Looked at the tune and do not see any variable cam controls activated as you are correct, the cam is locked out.
    Last edited by lynmup; 01-31-2023 at 06:57 PM.

  11. #11
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    This is a factory E tune that was posted by another on here a while back for you to reference for your E tuning. I highly recommend you take the VE alcohol multiplier and put it in on the MAF side underneath your regular fuel tab. That's the only way it'll correctly adjust for E. Funny enough I actually made my own tables before finding this calibration and came up with almost identical numbers to these. Found it interesting anyway.

    VVE changes will compensate for torque and fuel transitional changes during throttle stabs. I also changed your manifold volume back as the one you had in there was fairly large and will further throw out the calcs.
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    Last edited by GHuggins; 02-01-2023 at 07:55 PM.
    2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
    2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80

    ~Greg Huggins~
    Remote Tuning Available at ghugginstuning@gmail.com
    Mobile Tuning Available for North Georgia and WNC

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by GHuggins View Post
    This is a factory E tune that was posted by another on here a while back for you to reference for your E tuning. I highly recommend you take the VE alcohol multiplier and put it in on the MAF side underneath your regular fuel tab. That's the only way it'll correctly adjust for E. Funny enough I actually made my own tables before finding this calibration and came up with almost identical numbers to these. Found it interesting anyway.

    VVE changes will compensate for torque and fuel transitional changes during throttle stabs. I also changed your manifold volume back as the one you had in there was fairly large and will further throw out the calcs.
    Thanks again... Haven't seen most of things you are referring during my self training on HP tuners.
    The manifold is ported so it is much more volume since the internal posts are gone.

    I did have it tuned for E85 and I've been modifying it little by little to see what works best for me. I have logged the change and I have seen the differences regarding power increase and power loss so where I have it I think is as good as it'll be. Of course having a Dyno will be more beneficial but for the most part I'm getting it where I need it.

    I'll look into the ve multiplier for the MAF to see what you are referring to.

    Appreciate all this feedback.

  13. #13
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    The E85 tuning was done by GPI as they are the ones who ported the intake manifold. Since this is their product and they have tested it this is what he said the volume should be. Have not changed it since he sent it.

  14. #14
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    Well let me just put it this way in regards to your E85 tune. Either one of two things are happening. Either your main tune is wrong and the e "tune" is compensating for it or your cooking your pistons and your oil. Look at how the OE has it vs what you have. Pay close attention to light load and mbt corrections.
    2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
    2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80

    ~Greg Huggins~
    Remote Tuning Available at ghugginstuning@gmail.com
    Mobile Tuning Available for North Georgia and WNC

  15. #15
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    Man! You have no idea how valuable all this is. I compared your tune to the one sent from GP as well as my friends stock 2014 Silverado 5.3 and they are all different. I am going with these changes to see if it does any better but I will let you know one thing, all the tuning was done on 93 octane and then I added the E.

    I'm gonna give it a try on my VVE table and if I don't see any improvements, then I'll update my tune to your VVE table and see how it goes frpm there. Not sure about the oil, not using any and it isn't burning anything, fairly new forged engine that I built for the ProCharger I had. Decided to sell it and go a different rout but keeping it N/A for now. My goal is to get it running absolutely perfect. I just recently re-tuned it as I found out the TB Max area was way off form one of the remote email tune I paid for. Once I readjusted it to the correct size, it was running 15 % rich. This is when I decided to learn how to do it myself as I cannot trust to many people. One gut said he could tune my ProCharger but found out he doesn't touch the VVE.. How in the heck?

    One final thing...having a hard time understanding what to do with this... "take the VE alcohol multiplier and put it in on the MAF side underneath your regular fuel tab" I updated all the flex fuel tabs so they all match now.

  16. #16
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    Only changed that in this one for you. If it's too rich on E vs gas this is the table you'll need to dial in - I typically have to lean them out a touch around 60% and up.


    Ethanol fuel burns faster at lower cylinder pressures. What winds up happening with the timing being higher at idle and lower rpm cruise is it will super heat - or has the ability to do so - the tops of the pistons and the combustion chambers. This results in top rings having the oil cooked out of them and oil being sprayed on the underside of the pistons being heated. I've only ever seen this happen in a built engine that was running advanced timing and you could watch the oil temp climb with light throttle cruise.

    Higher rpm / lower load is a different story - still need to add in timing there... Then higher loads need more timing and especially low rpm high loads - need a lot of timing in this area typically depending on the main timing map.
    Last edited by GHuggins; 02-01-2023 at 06:47 PM.
    2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
    2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80

    ~Greg Huggins~
    Remote Tuning Available at ghugginstuning@gmail.com
    Mobile Tuning Available for North Georgia and WNC

  17. #17
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    Looks like the change you made to this was under Fuel Alcohol multiplier but I didn't see any other changes for E85. Was this only for tutorial purposes? Since I already have a tune ready from your previous recommendations, I updated it from the tune you just attached.

  18. #18
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    I certainly do appreciate all your efforts however the fast torque exit change nothing and the changes you recommended causing the truck to run exceptionally slower. I will try the vve update as you suggested but other than that I'm at a loss.

  19. #19
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    Don't see how it would have been running slower, but it was worth a shot I guess.

    I only showed in that last one where to put the e multiplier to keep fueling straight.
    Last edited by GHuggins; 02-01-2023 at 06:49 PM.
    2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
    2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80

    ~Greg Huggins~
    Remote Tuning Available at ghugginstuning@gmail.com
    Mobile Tuning Available for North Georgia and WNC

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by GHuggins View Post
    Don't see how it would have been running slower, but it was worth a shot I guess.

    I only showed in that last one where to put the e multiplier to keep fueling straight.
    Don't get me wrong, I am very grateful for the help you provided and if I can take away anything it is that you show me the correct E85 settings. Possibly may have saved my engine long-term. I did go in there and massage the table a little as my scaling is a bit off from what you had but I have it where it is negative timing and idle and it slowly comes in when you give it throttle but I limited it at five total degrees compared to the eight I think you had it at. That might have been the issue, too much timing...

    The laptop died so when I get it charged up again I will post my last tune along with a log. Wound up adjusting the virtual torque a bit more and it got it a little better but I think it was a combination of all things. Either way I'm now more educated.