"DE-Tuning" 2005 Hemi - This should be a first !

[acln99]

I have a 6.1L running on a 2005 5.7 controller. Engine runs fine but I'm sure the tune needs a review !!

Problem is - its connected to a 42LE transmission and so I've lost all "torque management" between Trans and engine.

Everything works except engine is not told to retard timing during a shift. If I let the trans shift under "high" power or WOT, transmission will not last long !!

Good news - I do have access to "signal" when transmission is going to shift.

I've read that LS guys would trick PCM by fooling IAT (using a resister ) to read 32F and then change the timing table to remove timing at that temperature.

Does anyone have any ideas if this can be done on a Hemi ? Any other ideas to remove torque "on demand" .



On a long shot - does anyone know if a PCI bus message can be used to "remove timing" ?

Any help is greatly appreciated !

Thank you !

[PurpleRam]

Le? Or Re ? Just never heard of an LE,

As for can bus, I’m going to say no, I could be wrong ( might be wrong)

I have tuned an 04 & one of my 05’s had a 904 trans(42re non od) , both trucks are pure race truck, what I did there was flat spot the timing at shift points, we figured out where it liked to shift, remapped the rpm scale, lowered timing from 24 to 20 then back to 24.

The IAT trick, I know it works the other way, set it to hit 250f, use a msd window switch to trigger a 250f spike,use the thermal WOT table to pull 5-8 degrees.

I’ll post up the spark tables tomorrow for the 04 ram.

About a month after my old am bought his 03 new, him and my uncle Tony had a 904 in that truck, truck went from 15.0’s to 14.30 , couple stages of nos & 5 short blocks later, they made some money down in the streets of Philadelphia

[PurpleRam]

It’s more complicated than I made it sound…. But can be done

[acln99]

Thanks for you comments. When I look at Thermal WOT table, I see only MAP - kpa . I don't understand how I use this as IAT temp ?

FYI - I monitor TCM and it can output a "window switch" when shifting. - 1/2 of job done .

[PurpleRam]

So I talked to the guy I built a 431ci for who races a 68dart with an 05ECU, He didn?t use thermal WOT spark table, he was using the Hot spark table with the AIT trick??Now he uses Baro voltage and Baro spark table to kick it down into a lower MAP readings while at WOT to pull timing.

On to what I did with spark tables.

Attached are the P.T and W.O.T, 1st off this has only worked in WOT situations, I never tried to make it work for a ?daily? driver, I think it could with a lot of work, the PT,max spark and torque reduction tables would need to be the same value in the 70KPA and under area of the table, and limited to what ever spark value you want to decrease to.

I set WOT power enrich table at 2.25v and WOT Throttle tables (in driver demand) at 2.9V, needed to do that because that was the only way I could control what MAP reading I would get when the shift occurred, to make this work you have to lift the pedal enough to get it out of(off of)the WOT spark table, but not enough to close the TB or lean out the engine.

If you look at the RPM scale, I had to rescale it to meet the RPM?s difference between ?shift point? and ?recovery? RPMs.
Then rescaled MAP values to separate ?W.O.T? KPA from ?pedal lift? KPA. During testing this truck never dipped below 90KPA when in WOT, unless I lifted slightly.

if your are a never lift pedal guy, This isn't going to work.

For got to mention , Torque reduction table was matched to W.O.T table

[acln99]

So I have continued my quest to "remove timing" at will. I have "window switch" so that I can cause IAT to read -4 C at will.

Looking for any table that is based on IAT,

In the SPARK section, I see all the tables are based on (MAP pressure kpa) . How is that related to IAT ??

In AIRFLOW section , I see that "Sensed MAP" is disabled. Is the MAP sensor even used ?


I did find in AIRFLOW - SPEED DENSITY corrections VE IAT Factor

Can anyone shed some light on how IAT and MAP are related ?

[PurpleRam]

So I have continued my quest to "remove timing" at will. I have "window switch" so that I can cause IAT to read -4 C at will.

Looking for any table that is based on IAT,

In the SPARK section, I see all the tables are based on (MAP pressure kpa) . How is that related to IAT ??

In AIRFLOW section , I see that "Sensed MAP" is disabled. Is the MAP sensor even used ?


I did find in AIRFLOW - SPEED DENSITY corrections VE IAT Factor

Can anyone shed some light on how IAT and MAP are related ?

IAT & MAP , short answer, not related,

VE IAT factor, More of a fueling table.

[LilSick]

engine > spark > advance > IAT > source > change that to IAT

engine > spark > advance > IAT > cold spark [32127] > make look like pic below

engine > spark > advance > IAT > ref part throttle > 30 C

engine > spark > advance > IAT > cold spark ref > 0 C

[acln99]

Thank you for helping !!!

I can't find:
engine > spark > advance > IAT > ref part throttle > 30 C
engine > spark > advance > IAT > cold spark ref > 0 C

Attached is the tune.

What am I missing ? - besides my mind !!

[PurpleRam]

No your not missing your mind,

Trust me when I say this 04/05 are very limited in what tables are available and some times what tables we do have do not work the same as 09+

IAT ve table works like this,
If the o2s are requesting more fuel to maintain ecu requested 14.3 AFR, the IAT ve table will adjust ve to meet said request?? no timing involved

IAT and map, is an algorithm that?s very complicated and spark does not play into it

Cold spark table has no user, usable function, in the 04/05 NGC pcm, 06/08 when it?s triggered by cold temps it adjusts spark based on MAP readings?.. but it will not let spark go below MBT min table..on the other side of the temperature coin it will let thermal spark go below MBT min.

Take this with a grain of salt if you must but between the 3 people posting here one of us has over1k hours dyno work on these 04/05?s

[acln99]

Thank you PurpleRam. I understand your comments. I have also seen that "available tables" change according to Flash let alone model year and NGC version.
I have to keep with and NGC3 - PCI bus PCM so I believe limited to Ram. I haven't looked close at an Auto Trans flash but expect no difference.

Again , my goal is to reduce engine power during transmission shift. I pretty much have given up on a "tuning" approach. Next step is to electronically override the Accel Pedal Voltages to simulate a reduction in Pedal, even though driver hasn't moved it. Same logic as the early auto transmissions of many years ago. Yes I'm that old !
My input for shifting is actually a CCD bus message from the TCM, so I'm already working in the "electronic" world. ( Electronic world is also new to me but am learning. )

With that many hours tuning , I suspect you have a business ? Can you PM me contact info ?

Thank You again.

[LilSick]

title says '05

op did not post a tune

i looked at the '05 tune i have, gave it some thought, and responded for him

changed a table for him and screen shot that shit.


turns out its not a '05 and he does not have those tables but i did gave someone a chance to flex their ego

its all good

every time i start thinking i am so much smarter than everyone else the universe has this way of slapping me up side the head and making me feel less than

thats just my experience... yer mileage may vary

[acln99]

LilSick - Thank you for the reply !! I didn't mean any dis-respect to anyone !!

OK - I did go find my 05 tune. What you describe is 100 % correct. ( I can load it into the PCM as well ) . I was using the 04 Flash as it was factory Manual Trans, actually in a 05 PCM. Now I can use HP to set tune to manual trans.

So now that we are on the same page ! Do I understand this correctly ?
When I fool the IAT sensor with a "cold" setting , IAT is less than 0C , so uses the Cold Spark Table ?? ( factory is 30C )

What is purpose of changing Part throttle Ref to 30C ?? ( factory is 20C ) ??

In addition to changing timing for this scenario, should and fuel tables be changed ??

[HaasExp]

Maybe a silly question, but why fool the IAT sensor for this purpose over the ECT sensor?
The IAT readings are a key input to the final IPW calculation. So fooling the IAT sensor will also cause a jump in the IPW. While only for a split second it could still be damaging if you are highly strung and go lean (fake higher temps).

If you use the ECT sensor and fool it to go higher than normal operating temp in combination with your ECT Hot spark table, then it might trip the cooling fan for that split second but that's about it.

A better option IMO, unless the ECT sensor input is highly filtered and responds too slow.

[LilSick]

its just for a split second to make it shift so i dont think it will matter. wont have any timing in it for that split second so not gonna hurt itself

As far as will it work hell i dont know : ) you wanted to know how to do it, that ^^^ is what i would try. I dont see why you would have to change the fuel tables and tbh i just thought pt 30 c might get it a lil further away from this now crazy cold spark table. leave it 20 and give it a shot.

[PurpleRam]

Thank you PurpleRam. I understand your comments. I have also seen that "available tables" change according to Flash let alone model year and NGC version.
I have to keep with and NGC3 - PCI bus PCM so I believe limited to Ram. I haven't looked close at an Auto Trans flash but expect no difference.

Again , my goal is to reduce engine power during transmission shift. I pretty much have given up on a "tuning" approach. Next step is to electronically override the Accel Pedal Voltages to simulate a reduction in Pedal, even though driver hasn't moved it. Same logic as the early auto transmissions of many years ago. Yes I'm that old !
My input for shifting is actually a CCD bus message from the TCM, so I'm already working in the "electronic" world. ( Electronic world is also new to me but am learning. )

With that many hours tuning , I suspect you have a business ? Can you PM me contact info ?

Thank You again.

I retired in 2019 from a specialty Coatings manufacture for 30 years , last 20 of it I ran it, 30% of the business was race coatings, development, application and testing. Ceramic, DLC, Moly coatings, part of the business was Dyno testing we ran Endurance/Research testing for Ferrari, Honda,AMG Holberts,TRD ,Nismo ,DCX/FCA ,Ford GM several Nascar teams. Owners were big in to Road racing, SCCA FIA , Le-mans, I ran the Chassis, dyno cell and Spintron rooms.
7 out of 10 headers sold use our base coating as a staring point......that cool Molly anti scuff coating on pistons....was developed by our lab, along with a bunch of other make things GO F--king fast coatings.
I have my own superflow 901 and a Dynotech Chassis that I play with in my old age.

[PurpleRam]

The “reference” tables are what the pcm uses to set spark voltage/ampere

[acln99]

Everyone ! Thank you for your comments and suggestions. As I stated, I am completely new to tuning.

By fooling IAT to go low, wouldn't extra fuel be pumped in so going lean would not be an issue ? Or do I have this backwards ?

[LilSick]

The “reference” tables are what the pcm uses to set spark voltage/ampere

Wow so those tables control timing voltage and amps? So if for instance if the pt ref is IAT 20c (68 deg f) and your IAT's are actually 30c 85f what does that do to voltage and amps?

[LilSick]

By fooling IAT to go low [so the trans will shift] wouldn't extra fuel be pumped in so going lean would not be an issue?

I dont think the IAT dropping from what is your avg? 85? to -4 does anything to the fueling. Their is a fuel temp multiplier (wonder what that looks at to come up with a temperature?) but i dont see a fuel table that uses IAT. Do you?