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Thread: Converting GM Bosch Injector Data to Dodge Format

  1. #1
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    Converting GM Bosch Injector Data to Dodge Format

    The injectors in question is the Bosch 0280158187 (52lb/hr @ 58psi), which are commonly used in the Sprintex SPS supercharger kits on Pentastar 3.6's.
    I'm unsure where Sprintex gets their injector data from but I believe the best source for accurate injector data is from OE factory tunes.

    Doing some research has led me to believe that these injectors are factory fitment on some GM 6.2L LSA supercharged vehicles, such as a 2012 Camaro ZL1.
    So I ended up tracking down a factory stock HP tuners file and set upon converting that injector data to suit the Dodge injector data format.
    My conversion of the injector data from GM to Dodge is here for a sanity check and questioning (is it possible and am I doing this correctly?).

    Injector Offset
    First up we have the GM [ECM] 12308 - Injector offset table (Injector Offset vs. Pressure Delta Vs. IGNV).
    The pressure delta here seems to be the differential fuel pressure "across" the injector.

    The Dodge [ECM] 34070 - Injector Pulsewidth Offset table also has "pressure differential" breakpoints but I believe this is actually offset to the nominal rail pressure of 58psi (~400kPa) eg "0" kPa pressure differential = 400kPa across the injector, 40kPa differential pressure = 400 + 40 = 440kPa etc.
    So to populate the Dodge table, I started using the GM data from the 408kPa column (with is within a few psi of the nominal rail pressure 58psi) in the 0kPa row.
    Then I used the GM 408 - 80 = 328kPa, 408 - 40 = 368kPa, 408 + 40 = 448kPa and 408 + 80 = 488kPa (as circled in the image below) to populate the Dodge -80, -40, 40, 80kPa rows.
    GM Inj Offset.PNG

    and this is what I ended up with:
    GM Dodge Inj Offset.PNG

    Note that the values entered are not exactly the same as the GM values because the Dodge tables only have a resolution of 8us, thus some rounding occurs.

    Fuel Mass
    Now this one was a bit more trickier to figure out. Hopefully I have the logic right...
    For Dodge, this is basically represented by a single table [ECM] 34052 - Fuel Mass vs Injector Pulsewidth and its inverse, [ECM] 34050 - Injector Pulsewidth vs Fuel Mass. These tables seem to be based on the actual injected fuel mass of the injector at a given PW at the nominal fuel pressure delta across the injector (fuel rail pressure ~400kPa).
    For GM, we have [ECM] 12307 - Injector Flow Rate vs. Pressure Delta. These flow figures are given by the injector slope in the "linear" region (PWs above [ECM] 3055 - Short Pulse Limit of 4ms).
    This then has to be combined with the GM [ECM] 12314 - Short Pulse Adder, to characterize the Injector at pulsewidths below the short pulse limit of 4ms, the non linear operating region.

    Firstly, we use GM [ECM] 12307 - Injector Flow Rate vs. Pressure Delta to find the flow rate at the nominal fuel pressure delta across the injector (408kPa), which gives us 6.68g/s or 6.68mg/ms.
    GM flow rate vs pressure.PNG

    Now we can add 2 PW breakpoints at the bottom of our Dodge [ECM] 34052 - Fuel Mass vs Injector Pulsewidth table to define the fuel mass in the linear injector operating region.
    These breakpoints can be defined by the short pulse limit (4ms) and another PW that is sufficiently high enough which you will never exceed. I used 50ms in this case.
    Simply multiplying the PW by the injector flow rate will give you the injected fuel mass eg 4ms * 6.68mg/ms = 26.72mg, 50ms * 6.68mg/ms = 334mg.
    Dodge Linear PW.PNG

    The tricky part is how to translate and interpret GM [ECM] 12314 - Short Pulse Adder to our Dodge [ECM] 34052 - Fuel Mass vs Injector Pulsewidth table.
    From my understanding, the algorithms in both ECU's essentially calculate a required fuel mass, for a given air mass and air/fuel ratio, which is then converted into a commanded injector pulse width.
    Therefore, in the short-pulse, non-linear region, the short pulse adder is added to the commanded PW to correct the PW for the given required fuel mass.
    As an example: if we required 13.36mg of fuel, we would command 13.36mg / 6.68mg/ms = 2ms if the fuel delivery was linear. However, the fuel flow rate is not linear in this region so we look up the GM short Pulse Adder at 2.0ms (circled in red below) and add it to the nominal pulse width to correct it.
    GM short pulse adder.PNG
    So for a required 13.36ms of fuel we would actually command a PW of 2+0.0078 = 2.0078ms instead of 2ms.

    An additional complication of translating this Short Pulse Adder is that the GM table has 33 cells where as our Dodge table has a total of only 15. Out of that, 2 cells have already been used to define the linear operating region, leaving us with only 13 cells.
    This is where you have to get creative and translate it to best suit your application.
    From previous data logs on these injectors, I know that this engine requires an approximate minimum fuel mass of 8mg, warm with the engine speed held just above idle (1400rpm), in neutral, at stoich in closed loop. The ECU commands a PW of ~1.1ms to deliver this mass.
    So I would like to add a few breakpoints below this PW for high vacuum and overrun conditions but my main focus is to add breakpoints above this PW to the start of the linear region (4ms)

    For this case I choose my 13 PW breakpoints from the GM short adder table of 0, 0.3, 0.8, 1, 1.4, 2.1, 2.4, 2.6, 2.8, 3.1, 3.3, 3.6, 3.8ms. Unfortunately we need to compromise here because we and limited with our data cells, so it wont be perfect.
    To help minimize and select appropriate breakpoints, look out for neighboring breakpoints in the GM table with the same adder value and group them together as I circled in blue in the above image. You can see that 2.8, 2.9, 3.0 and 3.1ms all have the same adder of 0.0313ms. So just have breakpoints of 2.8 and 3.1ms with the same adder of 0.0313ms to eliminate unuseful data. I also grouped the breakpoints from 1.4 to 2.1ms because the adder error is mostly small at 0.0078ms throughout.

    Once you have your commanded PW breakpoints, use excel and calculate the corresponding fuel mass using the flow rate in the LINEAR region (PW * 6.68ms/mg = fuel mass).
    Then use the corresponding short pulse adder to correct the PW breakpoints and determine the actual required pulse widths for these fuel masses.
    Excel PW Mass.PNG

    The required pulse widths and corresponding fuel masses (green columns) then become the breakpoints and data inputs to our [ECM] 34052 - Fuel Mass vs Injector Pulsewidth and its inverse, [ECM] 34050 - Injector Pulsewidth vs Fuel Mass tables.
    fuel mass vs ipw.PNG
    Note that the pulsewidth breakpoints are limited to only 1 significant digit and rounded when you view the whole table. When you change the actually PW axis breakpoints, you are able to increase the significant digits and view the correct values.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by HaasExp; 03-14-2023 at 04:17 AM.

  2. #2

    Thank you for posting this!!!
    Apparently I'm not the only one using these injectors. It would be nice if someone posted there Sprintex tune to get more information but the research your doing is awesome! I'm not a math wizard so understanding most of the formulas you posted is totally a different language to me...lol. I thought I had a good baseline for my 187 injectors using a tune posted by another user.....

    Attachment 129447

    But the injector data caused my car to recognize 20% ethanol when I'm using 53% and I also went lean at WOT. I tried to combat this by increasing my power enrichment data and it did help a bit but my overall numbers based off of HTP overall were lower than my previous tune using "Base Test" injector settings.

    Attachment 129448
    Attachment 129449
    Note the log was short due to traffic......

  3. #3
    Small update:
    Here is my tune now with the injector information you posted above. I was only able to get a log in idle and idle in drive and reverse since its 2:30am and I don't want to bother the neighbors. My car currently has tested by the Innovate ECF-1 47.3% ethanol in the tank and at idle the pcm now thinks I have 50% ethanol. I think your calculations were correct. I'll know for sure tomorrow when I can do a road test and actually open it up!

    Attachment 129451
    Attachment 129452
    Attachment 129453
    Last edited by brr; 03-17-2023 at 01:53 AM.

  4. #4
    These were from today.....
    I currently have 68% ethanol in the tank. I had to change the power enrichment a little bit as it was running 0.92-0.94 Lambda when the gauge would actually work under WOT. I richened up the power enrichment to around 0.80 Lambda at WOT where my car likes it at high rpms.....
    This is all based on using your injector data you posted.

    Attachment 129490
    Attachment 129491

  5. #5
    Senior Tuner eficalibrator's Avatar
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    Close, but not exact.

    Your method of roughly devising the new working PW and fuel mass will probably get you close for the mass vs PW tables. Direct measurement is always best though.

    The bigger problem is that the "Offset" for GM and Dodge represent two different points on the curve. you can't just plug the GM offset values into a Dodge and expect it to be right. You will have some errors down low (idle and cruise) that are significant because of the mismatch here. I wouldn't be surprised if this was the major driver for @brr seeing an error in inferred ethanol percentage too. I take all of this into account when delivering "plug and play" data to clients.

    Another issue you will run into with the LSA/LS9 injector is that the spray angle is bent by 15* coming out of the injector. This means that a bunch of the fuel will either hit the port wall or the injector "tube" leading into the intake port, forming more puddling. (Many Chrysler intakes have the injector further up in the manifold with an extended tip to deliver fuel in the right place) If you have a Hemi, a direct single stream probably works best to aim at the back of the intake valve. With a Pentastar, you ideally want a split-stream injector that aims part of the flow at each individual intake valve. Either way, using the LSA injector means it's likely aimed at neither and will require a bunch of compensation in the transient fuel tables to smooth it out. I would just use a different injector if it were my vehicle. There are some good, affordable options out there that I have tested.

  6. #6
    Advanced Tuner rays04gtx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eficalibrator View Post
    Close, but not exact.

    Your method of roughly devising the new working PW and fuel mass will probably get you close for the mass vs PW tables. Direct measurement is always best though.

    The bigger problem is that the "Offset" for GM and Dodge represent two different points on the curve. you can't just plug the GM offset values into a Dodge and expect it to be right. You will have some errors down low (idle and cruise) that are significant because of the mismatch here. I wouldn't be surprised if this was the major driver for @brr seeing an error in inferred ethanol percentage too. I take all of this into account when delivering "plug and play" data to clients.

    Another issue you will run into with the LSA/LS9 injector is that the spray angle is bent by 15* coming out of the injector. This means that a bunch of the fuel will either hit the port wall or the injector "tube" leading into the intake port, forming more puddling. (Many Chrysler intakes have the injector further up in the manifold with an extended tip to deliver fuel in the right place) If you have a Hemi, a direct single stream probably works best to aim at the back of the intake valve. With a Pentastar, you ideally want a split-stream injector that aims part of the flow at each individual intake valve. Either way, using the LSA injector means it's likely aimed at neither and will require a bunch of compensation in the transient fuel tables to smooth it out. I would just use a different injector if it were my vehicle. There are some good, affordable options out there that I have tested.
    Thanks Greg
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  7. #7
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    Thanks for chiming in Greg!
    Great info as always.

    A few questions to see where I went wrong and to try and improve my understanding of the subject if I may.

    Quote Originally Posted by eficalibrator View Post
    The bigger problem is that the "Offset" for GM and Dodge represent two different points on the curve. you can't just plug the GM offset values into a Dodge and expect it to be right. You will have some errors down low (idle and cruise) that are significant because of the mismatch here.
    I assume you are talking about the injector offset (latency) here.
    Please excuse my ignorance, but if I match the injector operating voltage and the differential fuel pressure across the injector, shouldn't I simply be able to convert the GM data straight over to the Dodge offset tables and rescale the axes (if necessary) to match?

    For example: In the GM table, for a "pressure delta" across the injector of 408kPa ~(58psi) and voltage of 12V, the injector offset is 0.9531ms. In the Dodge table, I placed this 0.9531ms offset in 12V and 0kPa "differential pressure" cell.
    Unless I've completely misinterpreted the Dodge (or GM) table axes, I believe that the Dodge "differential pressure" axis refers to the pressure across the injector in reference to the intake manifold "gauge" pressure, and the nominal fixed fuel rail pressure of 400kPa (~58psi).
    Thus, with intake manifold at atmospheric pressure, the "differential pressure" should be 0 kPa in the Dodge offset table but the actual pressure across the injector should be the nominal fuel rail pressure of 400kPa (~58psi)?

    Quote Originally Posted by eficalibrator View Post
    With a Pentastar, you ideally want a split-stream injector that aims part of the flow at each individual intake valve. Either way, using the LSA injector means it's likely aimed at neither and will require a bunch of compensation in the transient fuel tables to smooth it out. I would just use a different injector if it were my vehicle. There are some good, affordable options out there that I have tested.
    This is fully understandable. From experience, the transient tuning is an absolute pain to sort out on the Pentastars with these injectors.
    I really don't know why Sprintex (who supply these injectors as part of their SPS kits for the 3.6 Pentastar) decided to use these 0280158187 "single cone" LSA injectors and managed to come up with a supplied tune that passed emission testing.
    Their supplied tune drives OK, but you can easily observe the huge lean/rich, on/off throttle transients just on a simple wideband.

    The Bosch 0280 158 298 EV14 "dual cone" from a Ford Coyote seems to be a much better match for a boosted Pentastar but unfortunately its a "standard" length injector.
    If you know of any compact length EV14 dual cone injectors with similar flow rates I'm all ears.
    Last edited by HaasExp; 03-29-2023 at 02:14 AM.

  8. #8
    Another user who also agrees about the spray pattern. As another member has mentioned there are a couple injector EV14 options and I searched the part numbers for a while and the proper injectors for the proper spray pattern based on the recommended part number in another topic are not readily available so we are stuck with the "187" injector. The proper spray patten injector is available in places like Europe or Australia but nothing seems to pop up for an American vehicle.

  9. #9
    Senior Tuner eficalibrator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HaasExp View Post
    I assume you are talking about the injector offset (latency) here.
    Please excuse my ignorance, but if I match the injector operating voltage and the differential fuel pressure across the injector, shouldn't I simply be able to convert the GM data straight over to the Dodge offset tables and rescale the axes (if necessary) to match?

    For example: In the GM table, for a "pressure delta" across the injector of 408kPa ~(58psi) and voltage of 12V, the injector offset is 0.9531ms. In the Dodge table, I placed this 0.9531ms offset in 12V and 0kPa "differential pressure" cell.
    Unless I've completely misinterpreted the Dodge (or GM) table axes, I believe that the Dodge "differential pressure" axis refers to the pressure across the injector in reference to the intake manifold "gauge" pressure, and the nominal fixed fuel rail pressure of 400kPa (~58psi).
    Thus, with intake manifold at atmospheric pressure, the "differential pressure" should be 0 kPa in the Dodge offset table but the actual pressure across the injector should be the nominal fuel rail pressure of 400kPa (~58psi)?
    Yes, but GM and Dodge refer to two completely different points in time with their "offset" tables, even after you correct for pressure and voltage. GM follows the traditional generic/SAE model where Dodge is linked to the actual (theoretical) opening point, which can be off by quite a bit when injectors are non-linear at small pulses.

    This is fully understandable. From experience, the transient tuning is an absolute pain to sort out on the Pentastars with these injectors.
    I really don't know why Sprintex (who supply these injectors as part of their SPS kits for the 3.6 Pentastar) decided to use these 0280158187 "single cone" LSA injectors and managed to come up with a supplied tune that passed emission testing.
    Their supplied tune drives OK, but you can easily observe the huge lean/rich, on/off throttle transients just on a simple wideband.

    The Bosch 0280 158 298 EV14 "dual cone" from a Ford Coyote seems to be a much better match for a boosted Pentastar but unfortunately its a "standard" length injector.
    If you know of any compact length EV14 dual cone injectors with similar flow rates I'm all ears.
    I don't know who's doing the Sprintex calibration, so I can't help too much there. The LSA is an even worse option because the single cone coming out of it is bent at a 15* gamma angle too. the Ford family of dual stream injectors would be better as long as they don't impinge upon a "tube" around the injector tip that some Dodge engines have. (That's why they have extended tip injectors!) ...is there an echo in here?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by eficalibrator View Post
    GM follows the traditional generic/SAE model where Dodge is linked to the actual (theoretical) opening point, which can be off by quite a bit when injectors are non-linear at small pulses.
    Thanks for clearing that up mate. That now makes perfect sense.

    From my limited knowledge, I have been under the belief that all manufacturers stuck with the flow "slope" in the linear region and the extrapolated intercept of this slope to the x-time axis for a given activation voltage to find the offset. Just like the image you have in your technical article "Useless Theory and Boring Math".
    I assume this is the GM traditional model which then relies on the short pulse width adders to correct it. I guess the Dodge method is to measure/model the actual latency and come up with a single mass vs time table that includes everything.

    Thanks again for your time to explain this.

  11. #11
    Damn, The advanced knowledge in this post is mind blowing! Too bad it can't be dumbed down to my level as an average person....LOL
    Greg and Haas are AWESOME!!!!
    Thanks again for you two sharing this technical information and hopefully others will pick up on it!
    Note: recently I changed my A/F ratios for 0 ethanol and 85% ethanol and the pcm is recognizing the alcohol content within 5% now......