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Thread: Erratic results from AFR Error

  1. #1
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    Erratic results from AFR Error

    Could use some help here. P59, DBW, mild cam 231/242 (advertised 280/292) 3600 stall, truck intake with 50# 12613412 injectors. Back story for those whom haven?t seen my previous post. This truck is running on a tune that was done 3 years ago and roughly 15k miles. Now that I have more time to get back into tuning, I started datalogging the vehicle and noticed it is very rich, and timing looks like California after an earthquake. I have done datalogging with and without a wideband, using STFTs and without. Currently I have the MAF failed, disabled LTFT, disabled DFCO, disabled COT, set EQ ratio to 1.0, copied hihg octane to low octane, and disabled PE.
    I have an apprx 10 mile ?course? that enters a highway, can get up to 75 mph, then exits to regular surface streets back to start.
    When datalogging, I am showing lean. So I added 10% to the VE table. I have run this route 4 times today. Engine is above 170 degrees, I start datalogging once I start driving, and the wideband is fully heated up as to not have any odd variables. Once I complete the ?course? I take the data copy, and past special, multiply by half %.
    For example, if you look at the axi/row at 55kpa/2400 rpms there is virtually no change on 4 of the charts. And on the 5th I cant explain that one.
    I have watched many videos, and have done research through the forums, and either I am making a blatant mistake, I?m positive I?m doing this correct, but why am I not getting the numbers to change, or the inconsistencies?
    My previous post has a copy of my tune, and I was told its too rich, injector data was wrong, and a few other things. Those suggestions and comments were implemented, and I really could use an extra set of eyes as I have to be missing something.
    Sorry for the long post, I wanted to get as much information as to not having people guessing at things that have been done.
    Thank you in advance..
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    Last edited by bk2life; 03-17-2023 at 09:12 PM.

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    Senior Tuner kingtal0n's Avatar
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    IMO turn off the narrowbands, use a wideband to populate the a/f datalog while the engine is in typical conditions, like not too cold or too hot, fully warmed up during the part of a day where you will normally drive

    Then, with the injector data all correct, adjust the VE table to give you ideal a/f ratios according to the wideband.
    Don't use blind multiplication to correct ve table. Don't rely on math. L@@K at the a/f logged, and then look at what condition it was logged in, and examine the number of data points and compare them to find what the true a/f of that cell is, then adjust the VE table based on your observations.

    Shoot for 14.8 to 15.2:1 air fuel for < 55KPA then gradually enrich from 55-80KPA and hand enrichment off to PE at some point. If you have automatic trans in gen3 the VE weight adds trans pressure so performance applications can increase pressure using the VE table weight slightly in regions outside of PE using enrichment strategy. It's slight but you should be aware VE table will influence transmission pressure if automatic which is why it very important to make sure injector size makes realistic VE table values.

    This is my method

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingtal0n View Post
    IMO turn off the narrowbands, use a wideband to populate the a/f datalog while the engine is in typical conditions, like not too cold or too hot, fully warmed up during the part of a day where you will normally drive
    ive had a dozen people tell me use STFTs for anything outisde of PE and wideband for tuning PE.
    I have an auto, 3600 stall.
    Your method is interesting. I havent seen it done this way. Youre taknig the actual AFR and using that to populate the VE table?
    -narrowband O2s are going to correct to what THEY think is right during idle and part throttle once you turn them back on and even though you tuned those areas with a wideband, they’re still going to “recorrect” using the STFTs and LTFTs. What the wideband says is stoich and what the narrowbands say is stoich are almost never the same. So unless you want to be chasing your tail once you re-enable them it’s usually best to just tune idle and part throttle with the LTFTs and save the wideband tuning for WOT. Otherwise you’re gonna think everything is dialed and then wonder why after you re-enable your LTFTs and STFTs they’re suddenly showing huge corrections.
    Last edited by bk2life; 03-17-2023 at 07:29 PM.

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    Ignoring the logs, how does it drive, start, and just behave in general? Sometimes things are just going to be what they are.

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    Senior Tuner kingtal0n's Avatar
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    I've never used a narrowband since 1998. It isn't necessary, look at my map, I don't use closed loop narrowband because 14.7:1 is neither optimal nor desirable, and I don't like what 14.7 does to plugs and chambers. Leaner a/f ratios give superior economy, cleaner plugs and cleaner chambers. If you tune an engine properly it won't need a closed loop. Closed loop auto-correction is for when the engine isn't tuned fully, the computer corrects for your mistakes to produce optimal emissions (Not optimal economy, Not optimal efficiency, narrowbands are for emissions). Its weird to me because usually people disable their emissions stuff but for some reason the narrowband never got the boot even though widebands completely replaced them in the late 90's for hobby level performance vehicles.


    But I don't want to turn this into a debate about narrowband vs widebands. Widebands have a narrowband inside them. Tune with whatever makes you comfortable. I Just want to give you options and insights.
    I will assume you intend to use the narrowband features. As a novice this is a good idea anyways to familiarize yourself with the auto corrective features of an ECU in general.

    narrowband O2s are going to correct to what THEY think is right during idle and part throttle once you turn them back on and even though you tuned those areas with a wideband, they’re still going to “recorrect” using the STFTs and LTFTs. What the wideband says is stoich and what the narrowbands say is stoich are almost never the same. So unless you want to be chasing your tail once you re-enable them it’s usually best to just tune idle and part throttle with the LTFTs and save the wideband tuning for WOT. Otherwise you’re gonna think everything is dialed and then wonder why after you re-enable your LTFTs and STFTs they’re suddenly showing huge corrections.
    First, natural conditions wander and this will cause wandering STFT and LTFT. It will never have a "0" correction, and so it won't be for long in every cell. The corrections change from + to - depending on the ambient conditions and engine related such as system voltage and sensor heating.
    What is important is the map cleanliness, smooth and minimal transitions 'learned' and perhaps all learned the same way "all +" or "all -". for continuity.

    Second, Widebands will show 14.7 when narrowbands show 14.7, pretty accurately. I've tuned hundreds of vehicles and many had narrowbands that I would "check" by comparing narrowband and wideband outputs.
    If they give different numbers its either because of poor calibration, or poor placement (one sensor is much warmer than the other, oxygen sensors are temperature dependent)

    Third, The base map is what the engine runs on while cold and before the correction occurs after a hard reset, and its where the base scale efforts are derived from as the cells move around even after learning new values. The engine should run smooth and proper without any feedback or learning, tuning is literally tuning the engine's maps and charts without any aided feedback or auto corrections.

    New values when learned are dispersed at uneven intervals based on when and how long the cell is occupied or being read from, and transitions between cells play a significant role in whether the cell will be determined 'rich' or 'lean'. That means corrective values can and will create jagged or dramatic offsets between cells which are infrequently used for specific conditions, or used specifically in situations, such as off idle transitions or going up a certain hill grade in a certain gear or something particular. That can make the base map corrective feature counter production in nature, and it means YOUR setting the boundary for each learning behavior is as important as the learned values themselves and the initial tuning of the base map takes place outside of closed loop for majority of transition efforts such as off-idle and sudden acceleration. Closed loop and auto-corrective features are far too slow and 'dumb' (transient delay) to properly account and correct for sudden transitions, but it will try unsuccessfully if you let it, it is your job to find the boundary for these situations and tune them as with anything else.

    If you created a very clean and smooth base map, then the engine will run very clean and smooth through the map, even at 'wrong' a/f ratios. The smooth is more important than the a/f ratio to the feel and energy of the engine.
    If the corrections start applying the map from LTFT over time, some cells will correct more than others, and this might create an imbalance or sharp corners in the map, e.g. the map is smooth but the corrective features create little hills and valleys as you drive over time, and these wander within cells you frequent more often than others, you always have some cells which never get used so they never get corrections, and then there are some cells with minor corrections. And some of the corrections take place at different times so they could be in different directions + or -. It all becomes a mess quickly but since the engine runs pretty smooth at any A/F ratio from 12:1 to 16:1 most people won't notice while driving when the cells trip from 14.2 to 15.2 for example. Its a wash. The real victim is the economical use of fuel, the carbon cycling within chambers, the engine oil, the pcv system, these all take a hit while corrections applied near 14.7:1, no engine is perfectly efficient to burn all molecules of fuel and no two cylinders are identical, yet the sensors are averaging 4 or 8 cylinders together; consider if #1 is 14.45:1, #2 is 14.6:1, #3 is 14.75:1 and #4 is 14.85:1 they might average near 14.7:1 together but #1 will darken it's plug and deposit more carbon to the chamber and rings and into engine oil over time.

    The old school method for this (back in the 90's when stand-alone started being affordable to hobby level enthusiasts) was to tune the base map slightly rich like 14.5:1 and let the narrowbands (before widebands are available we did use narrowbands) remove a tiny bit of fuel to achieve 14.7:1, this ensures the slight rich is smooth operation for the engine and the narrowband is used to correct only slightly.
    The new school method is to simply use a target a/f ratio based on wideband closed loop feedback, like this
    targets1_ad4a5a171020e54542ccb252f262969900071f4d.png

    But HPtuners cannot utilize wideband feedback without wideband analog output simulated to 0-1v. Not a good idea for beginners.

    Here is the bottom line. If you tuned the engine properly using a wideband with a nice smooth VE table, and got your Resulting VE values close to one side or the other of 14.7:1 (all 14.6 or 14.8 for example). And you defined the appropriate boundaries for closed loop to function reliably in steady state conditions. Then, when you re-enable the closed loop features, the STFT and LTFT will drift only slightly with all +'s or all -'s to the 'perfect' (averaged) a/f value of narrowband operation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eXo3901 View Post
    Sometimes things are just going to be what they are.
    i dont follow you on this one.
    If it's lean, and im turinign it to 7200, i dont want to melt a piston.
    I'm showing lean across the board, and it appears that witht he last 5 adustments i ave made, VE isnt moving in a richer direction.
    I'm obvisouly missing something here, and am asking for help on what I am doing incorrectly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingtal0n View Post
    If you tuned the engine properly using a wideband with a nice smooth VE table.....
    your explanations are top quality. I thank you for the indepth explanation, and thoery behind it.
    When i datalog my wideband, and it shows lean, i copy and paste that data into the VE table and the next few times i datalog its still showing the same or near same lean reading.
    What am I doing wrong that after 5 attemps i cant get swing it from lean to rich or stoich?

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    Tuning Addict blindsquirrel's Avatar
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    If 242 @.050 is a mild cam, what's your definition of a big cam? Holy Jeebus!

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    Quote Originally Posted by blindsquirrel View Post
    If 242 @.050 is a mild cam, what's your definition of a big cam? Holy Jeebus!
    good catch, its 280 int./292 exh. advertised [231/242 113+3, .600/.600]

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    Quote Originally Posted by bk2life View Post
    i dont follow you on this one.
    If it's lean, and im turinign it to 7200, i dont want to melt a piston.
    I'm showing lean across the board, and it appears that witht he last 5 adustments i ave made, VE isnt moving in a richer direction.
    I'm obvisouly missing something here, and am asking for help on what I am doing incorrectly.
    Thought we were talking about driving normally, not WOT.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eXo3901 View Post
    Thought we.....
    its been along day, i might not be wording it correctly.
    according to the scanner and my wideband, my enigne is lean. after 5 attempts to 'copy paste specail multiply by half' im still just as lean as when i started, and used up $25 bucks in fuel.
    what am I doign wrong?
    How long does it take to get the VE table dialed in?
    i have my cell hits set to 15.
    Am I not driving long enough? Seems to me once a cell is hit 15 times its got the avaerage it needs. and should be good for changing the VE table.
    I do appreciate your response, i hope i explained it better this time around.

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    Senior Tuner kingtal0n's Avatar
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    First, the wide open throttle cannot be tuned using narrowbands nor does closed loop function for wide open (WOT). The closed loop tuning is ONLY for part throttle and cruise conditions, generally steady state, which means no changes no transitions, no moving cells. Like steady cruise 50mph is steady, that will closed loop fine. But anytime the throttle position is changing, it only confuses closed loop algorithms even the best of them. And anytime you go past roughly 60KPA (depends on compression ratio and fuel quality) the engine needs to be enriched for torque and safety, this has nothing to do with narrowbands or closed loop.

    For WOT and enrichment regions you will rely on widebands. Every performance engine needs wideband for WOT tuning. It is a necessary tool. If you look at my map, it is populated with wideband values in the 100KPA and 200KPA regions (it extends into boost section) via wideband, and this is not controlled by closed loop even if I had closed loop. you must set these values YOURSELF using wideband and power enrichment tables together.

    Part of learning to tune should be IMO learning how computers think and how to program a computer. This is where I will point out that there is a marked function for VE table which is completely separated from tuning the a/f ratios and it has to do with the architecture of GM ecu airmass calculation. The GM computer unlike stand-alones will attempt to calculate airmass via the VE table. If the VE values are too heavy the airmass calculated will also be too heavy. This results with the computer thinking the engine is producing more torque than it really is, which can have side effects such as excess transmission pressure.

    Quote Originally Posted by bk2life View Post
    your explanations are top quality. I thank you for the indepth explanation, and thoery behind it.
    When i datalog my wideband, and it shows lean, i copy and paste that data into the VE table and the next few times i datalog its still showing the same or near same lean reading.
    What am I doing wrong that after 5 attemps i cant get swing it from lean to rich or stoich?
    Here is how I think you should tackle this issue
    1. Stop copy and pasting and smooth the VE table out manually. Then, manually add some weight to the VE table near idle regions to see if the ECU responds.
    For example if you have 50's in the VE table, make a nice little 50 4x4 area, so the cell can wander and stay near 50 so the engine is smooth.

    Then, check the a/f ratio.

    Now, go back and make the 4x4 area all 55's or something heavier.

    Then, check the a/f ratio.

    If the a/f ratio responds to your changes, you know the VE table is 'working'.
    If it does not, there is something else happening such as a minimum injector on-time clamp or perhaps it isn't using the VE table at all (MAF isn't failed properly) or something like that.

    From there, once you see the VE table respond, you can reduce the minimum injector on-times allowable to make life easier for large injectors (as needed) and begin fine tuning the transitions from Closed loop areas (low KPA) to Torque enrichment areas (from 50 or 60KPA to 500KPA or whatever you run)

    Once the engine transitions to PE Mode I recommend using an interpolate feature for VE values which gives a clean slant approach to the rest of the table with the same torque curve VE shape you derived from tuning part throttle,
    this way the PE mode can easily maintain the set PE Enrichment ratios you tell it to.

    In other words, The engine VE curve is a hill. Somewhere there is a peak, depending on the cam and displacement and intake design. The hill is usually around 5k rpm but for your cam could be 6k or something. You can find the hill on a dyno pretty easy.
    The hill is peak VE, and the VE table will decrease on both sides of that hill. For example:
    3000rpm 88VE
    4000rpm 95 VE
    5000rpm Peak VE 98
    6000rpm 95VE
    7000rpm93VE

    Once you have this SHAPE of the curve, you can copy and paste it into the highest VE row and interpolate the entire table from anywhere to that row and it will curve fit your torque and VE perfectly for all pressure (KPA) leading up to that final row, with only minor tweaking needed if any. This way Power Enrichment tuning becomes a 2D MAP , and you can avoid having to tune every VE value in 3D on the VE table.

    Your issue up to this point sounds like the ECU isn't looking at the VE table at all , need to sort that out first

  13. #13
    Senior Tuner kingtal0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bk2life View Post
    its been along day, i might not be wording it correctly.
    according to the scanner and my wideband, my enigne is lean. after 5 attempts to 'copy paste specail multiply by half' im still just as lean as when i started, and used up $25 bucks in fuel.
    what am I doign wrong?
    How long does it take to get the VE table dialed in?
    i have my cell hits set to 15.
    Am I not driving long enough? Seems to me once a cell is hit 15 times its got the avaerage it needs. and should be good for changing the VE table.
    I do appreciate your response, i hope i explained it better this time around.

    Higher numbers make richer values. Smaller numbers are reduced fuel "leaner"

    Sounds like you kept reducing the fuel down to minimum injector ontime and now its clamped at some minimum.

    VE tuning can take years if you let it. MAP based tuning is one of those things you can tune forever and ever.
    Realistically it should take a day or two if you are already everything setup. But as you learn to tune you will find other maps and settings you want to change, and those will ruin all your VE tuning, and so you will start over multiple times. I recommend look at all other settings for example CTS and IAT bias, set that right now, I always choose IAT ONLY bias for example. Get that out of the way and others like it so you can do less 'starting over'

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingtal0n View Post
    Higher numbers make richer values. Smaller numbers are reduced fuel "leaner"
    are you referring to AFR here?
    I only use Lamda

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    Senior Tuner kingtal0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bk2life View Post
    are you referring to AFR here?
    I only use Lamda
    VE values are airmass weight
    Higher VE # = higher airmass = more fuel

    You said
    . after 5 attempts to 'copy paste specail multiply by half' im still just as lean as when i started, and used up $25 bucks in fuel.
    paste multiply by half? I Never paste anything so idk what it means but it sounds like you are reducing the VE values which makes the fuel table leaner

    I'll say this again re-read my suggestion and stop pasting stuff. Just look at the logged value and then adjust the VE table accordingly. Make small changes like + or - 1.0 at a time at first, then over time you will develop intuition about how many up or down to adjust to achieve desired results.
    Last edited by kingtal0n; 03-17-2023 at 11:08 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bk2life View Post
    Seems to me once a cell is hit 15 times it?s got the avaerage it needs. and should be good for changing the VE table.
    Assuming those are 15 hits of good data.

    Zero out your MAF table and see if it runs.

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    I hope you find this novel useful.
    1st are you tuning in closed loop?
    Yes= only look at STFT(+LTFT if kept that enabled)
    You will need to log the channels for B1S1 LTFT and STIT and the same for B2S1. Even if your LTFT is disabled, you want to have the channels in the list. This populates your histogram that you have been copy paste special %. Refrain from looking at your WB and comparing to the equivalence ratio commanded during closed loop, WB may show rich/lean if CL trims are needing to -/+ a lot of fuel. This can be confusing, WB reporting the opposite of what the trims are showing! What's going on??!!?? Pick 1 method. The closer you get the table calibrated the less error you're going to see overall and your WB will be closer to the commanded EQ.

    1st are you tuning in closed loop?
    No= open loop, ok. How is your WB connected to the scanner? Look at your gauge... look at what's in VCM scanner are they the same in OL? Verify this before continuing and fix if there's a discrepancy.
    Create your histogram for EQ ratio error.
    You can use the paste special by % if you choose, I look at the % error across a section of map kpa. I don't take the lowest usually maybe 2% error but I focus on a section that's all either + or -. What does that area have in common like if there's 2% and some 5% maybe 12%, split the lowest and the next lowest and average... example 4% across the whole section. I may overshoot a little bit of the lowest but staying within 2-3% is fine. If it's repeatable then address it LATER, but for now keep logging the tune revisions. As you drive with new tune in the same fashion you gathered the first log, you should see the errors are no longer the same and the ones that were really high should be reducing each revision. Keep nibbling at these taking next to the lowest error % until there's no more corrections in that section. You can do this for the entire ve each revision just may need to reduce the fuel in some sections and add fuel in the others. After the first revision If you have errors of the corrected kpa section of 2-3% DON'T TOUCH THAT AREA AGAIN until you have nibbled away at the higher ones, then if you see that whole area is still around 2 to 3% off update that whole area. Refrain from making these 2% corrections or you'll swing back and forth, if you've corrected it skip over it the next time. If you zoom in and narrow the data range and then in your histogram use the zoom data view only .... play the log and you will watch numbers from the start of the ramp run changing when you're at the other end of the little gray area zoomed in to about 30 seconds. The amount of interpolation is broad.
    Ramp Run... Start around 1200 RPM, tip into about 25% TPS hold it there in third gear manual or second gear automatic. Use the green button special functions for an automatic to hold the gear so it doesn't shift during this. From that low 1200RPM go up to about 4,000 RPM. Don't change your throttle just let it go up as far as it'll go in RPM at about 25% from that very first tip in. Slow down again about 1200 RPM tip into 40% TPS holding it there and let the RPMs increase until they stop. Hopefully you have already disabled your PE TPS% enable to a high value like 85 maybe 90%.
    Slow down again to about 1800 this time and tip in quickly, but get to 65% without spinning the tires, holding that percent until it plateaus, you may be above 4,000 RPM no need to go above 4400.
    As always these are suggestions and above all be safe. That's repeatable and you can do that to gather the data in your histograms. There is another way but it's a constant moving throttle position I use it too, it helps to flesh out some of the in-betweens progressively increasing throttle from about the 1,600 up to 4,000 RPM. Whichever method you use repeat it each time for the best data.
    If you see that when you're slowing down it starts changing your % error table, you're reducing your speed too slowly, do not cost down, SLOW down.
    Or Try 1200 to 4,000 RPM ramp at the given TPS percent and stop the log, start a new one for each TPS step to keep data from being altered while slowing.
    Hope this helps.
    Hondaeter.

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    I went backwards a few steps and put the unmodified (by me) VE and Timing back, I then turned on LTFT and OL.

    I went for a drive around my 10 mile loop and came up with this scan.
    Im curious, as the stft + ltft show green/rich and pulling fuel, but the AFR Eq Error (wideband) shows all red and lean conditions.
    The gauges show the fuel trims removing fuel, up to 12% at some areas.

    I think herein lies my issue. I was going off the AFR Eq (wideband) error percent yesterday which kept showing me being red/lean.
    Today, using the ltft + stft it shows green/rich. But the Wideband is still reading lean.

    I've also developed a misfire and i will pull the plugs and replace them, as they have been through a lot in the last 3 years.
    I could possibly have a burned plug wire, but, it is unknown at this time.

    Here is a picture of the VCM from today.
    336160093_583406210179093_3524273772568367907_n.jpg

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    Life starts with mechanically sound. Before attempting to tune anything, there is essential diagnostics,
    1. compression test
    2. plug inspection, plugs need to be clean or new copper cheap plugs before trying to tune after 1+ hours (after initial setup/startup tuning, swap to new plugs for tuning)
    3. pressure test, fill intake with pressure to find all leaking
    4. balance test, with engine idle dial in wideband a/f ratio to 15:1 using scanner, then performance balance test by disabling 1 injector at a time and note the RPM drop
    5. Balance test spark do the same thing as #4 but with spark disable 1 coil at a time listen for change
    6. Fuel pressure obviously needs good (check fuel pressure inspect during operation)

    All cylinder compression balanced, spark balance, fuel balance, no leaking in the manifold, new plugs, okay ready to tune

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    You want to reduce your channel list for faster data. Gen3 have limited bandwidth of about 25-28 channels.
    Start by saving your current channels from your log. Next consider modifying the list.

    For this vehicle you are drive by wire. You can delete the IAC position and IAC desired, idle desired rpm, the barometric pressure, fuel system status #2, and closed loop Status from channels list.
    You need to ADD the Idle advance, Base advance, P/N and in Gear idle base channels. You might want to organize the fuel channels like fuel status #1 and O2 sensor mV together with the LTFT, STFT, just group things together. ... Idle adaptive and idle desired airflow close to dynamic airflow, MAF frequency near the MAF airflow, afr commanded near eq commanded and WB. It makes it easier to to watch a group or "system" like fuel, air or spark when closer together. It's your baby, do what you want.

    Might I suggest click n hold the gauges tab and move cursor toward the graphs tab, this creates a cross pattern and place cursor in the middle and release button. It will now show up on the whole screen. I do this to all the tabs and toggle between them but again it's what you're comfortable with.
    ***********!!!!!!***********
    Lastly your MAF is reporting airflow value. Did you set the P0101, P0102,P0103 to MIL on 1st error and DTC airflow to very low(50hz) so it fails at start up? I have seen the MAF set to fail but still report airflow in channel, it did fail but you couldn't SEE it in scanner. Rare, and I see you have a MAF airflow value, usually zero when failed.
    Check for DTCs in Scanner diagnostics tab. Next at bottom of channels list, click the Details tab and see if MAF is failed. If not Key Off unplug MAF, start car, scan for DTC, wait 10 seconds, turn off car, plug MAF back in, restart, rescan DTC. It should show up failed now in details if it wasn't.
    Good luck and stay tuned.