Forged 5.7 Magnuson 2.3, Issues with ignition timing

[JD40]

hey guys was wondering if anyone could help me with this issue i've been fighting on my forged 5.7. Its a 6.1 crank, drop in piston/rod 10.3:1 comp ratio .010 overbore with a magnuson 2300. The issue i've been dealing with is seeing knock retard at relatively low timing and only 12psi. I run a 10gph nozzle spraying pure M1 methanol and usually run 93, however i just tried E70 and even that didn't help at all. Here's what has me lost, at the same boost pressure on the stock block (11-12psi) i was running 17* timing with just M1 and 93 and the car saw absolutely 0 knock. Now with the built motor I can't get the thing to take anymore than 13* up top(5500+) even with M1 & E70. In the midrange it doesnt like more than 8-10*,cells that i previously ran an extra 5* in with SBE. I figured maybe its a spark plug issue so i replaced them with NGK heat range 7 iridiums gapped @0.029", no difference. If anyone has any advice or ideas please lmk, my goal is to run 16psi on this setup but im afraid to turn the boost up if im seeing all this knock at only 12psi. I'll attach two tune files and two corresponding logs, both on E70+Meth with the only differences being +/- 2.5* timing.

Btw, I am not looking to just run a bunch ton of timing on the car, I haven't dyno'd it yet so I dont know where MBT is. My only reason for concern is its much more sensitive to timing on essentially the same setup just forged which is confusing, and I want to get it sorted out so I can run more boost knowing im not gonna melt a piston.

Tune files:
rev2_3.2pulley_E70_lowtiming.hpt rev2_3.2pulley_E70_hightiming.hpt

Logs:
rev2_E70_lowtiming.hpl rev2_E70_hightiming.hpl

[LilSick]

cant see the logs cuz ya didnt attach em right but i would drain the tank and try some good fuel

010 over and 'drop in' in same sentence - did you have someone that knows how to measure clearance do so???

[coanan]

Those pistons are going to be noisier than stock. Need to make changers to knock sensors.

[JD40]

cant see the logs cuz ya didnt attach em right but i would drain the tank and try some good fuel

010 over and 'drop in' in same sentence - did you have someone that knows how to measure clearance do so???

I called them drop ins because they are the actual drop in pistons MMX sells just in a .010 overbore size but weight matches the stock pistons still. I had a very experienced machinist do the piston clearances and verified them afterwards myself. They're around 0.005", and the range was .0035-.0055" i believe. A torque plate was used as well

I have tried with Shell 93, Sunoco 94, E70 mix, and other gas stations with no luck. I'll try to fix the log attachments thanks for letting me know

[JD40]

Yea I know this but if you look in the logs (once I get them to work) you'll notice the knock actually responds to timing. 4ex at 14deg commanded it sees 2-3deg KR and 11deg it sees 0-1deg KR. I don't wanna desensitize sensors without being 100% positive it's false knock

[JD40]

Log/tune files should be accessible now

[LilSick]

after you get that fuel out and put 10 gallons of race gas in : )

i would change the channels. lose the generic and replace with actual.

actual spark at the top at 10ms
knock sensor volt right under it x2
boost
rpm
yer data is off

all said n done Conan is most likely right... piston rock. but if you wanna know yer gonna have to go thru the motions

[JD40]

So I let the car get close to empty and threw 5 gallons of sunoco 260GT 100oct. It seems to have removed virtually all knock that was present before on both 93 only and E70 mix. Does 14-15deg max timing sound right for 10.3:1 @12psi with 100 octane and VP M1 injection? It seems awfully low to me but what do I know. Given the timing it takes @12psi on 93, is it even reasonable to try another 3-4psi at this point? It's not making the power I'm looking for yet, looking to run 6.xx 60-130s and as of rn it's doing high 7s.

100 octane log: rev1_100oct.hpl

[LilSick]

4v is still purdy loud : )

[JD40]

Maybe you can help me understand this better, my knock thresholds are in the 1-2.5v range yet when it saw 4v's at the knock sensor it didnt show any KR. Does this have to do with the knock filter window ie. it detected knock when the piston was not near TDC or was on intake/exhaust stroke

Also may have figured the issue out, seems like the meth system isn't functioning properly which would explain why it doesn't take much timing with 93 in the tank.

[LilSick]

for one thing the scaling is jacked on more than one of your spark tables

why didnt you add 'actual spark' for this latest log?

[JD40]

there isn't an actual spark channel available, which is odd because i remember having it logging a while back. I got the meth working again and all the knock is gone so that was the problem. still think its strange it read knock on E70 but could've just been a bad batch i guess.
I assume you're referring to the aircharge axis. I leave them how they are because quite honestly im too lazy to rework the table to be scaled properly and it works anyway since its linear boost with the roots blower.

[rays04gtx]

So I let the car get close to empty and threw 5 gallons of sunoco 260GT 100oct. It seems to have removed virtually all knock that was present before on both 93 only and E70 mix. Does 14-15deg max timing sound right for 10.3:1 @12psi with 100 octane and VP M1 injection? It seems awfully low to me but what do I know. Given the timing it takes @12psi on 93, is it even reasonable to try another 3-4psi at this point? It's not making the power I'm looking for yet, looking to run 6.xx 60-130s and as of rn it's doing high 7s.

100 octane log: rev1_100oct.hpl

1st those Pistons are LOUD , which boggles my mind because the .10 over package uses Mahle 2618's and Mahle coating is softer then what Wiseco uses.
2nd 14* degree WOT at 12PSI is in the ball park, Looking at your PT table I feel it's got too much Timing in the cruise range., Attached is the PT, WOT,and MBT tables from a 2010 Challenger 5.7 r/t car(3600dry weight) Kenn Bell 2.8 , runs max 14psi , Pistons are Mahle, .02 , over Crank is Molnar 3.59NHRA crank, Manely 300m rods , edelbrock Heads(65CC) with LARGE intake valve, Cam is low .600 lift 240/245(ish) @ .50 roughly 10.9 to 1, dry sump oil system, car runs 6.40s @110 on 100oct and 6.60s on 93, No meth....for the car..driver I can't say. trans is a old school 727.

Looking at your Tune, one thing I would suggest is Aircharge, axis...make it the same on All timing tables.

[LilSick]

3600 rpm 11 psi and 8 degrees?

4500 rpm 11 psi and 10 degrees?

it doesnt see 12 deg til 5300 bet you are leaving a bunch on the table

[JD40]

I went ahead and fixed the scaling on the spark tables. Also gonna try a little more timing in the midrange and see if it'll take it now. Only reason I had it in the 8-10deg range was because of the knock retard it was seeing. And I raised knock thresholds slightly (5%) because I was still seeing 1deg false knock in some cells.

Gonna see how this one runs
3.2pulley_meth.hpt

[LilSick]

.90

1.05

1.50

what the what…