WMI on a NA motor, reasonable or wasteful?

[junits15]

Like the title says, I'm playing with the idea of putting meth injection on an NA gen3 coyote. Unfortunately I don't have ethanol nearby, the closest station is over an hour away. Boostane/Octanium is not great for consistent use on a street car. I have no desire to do longtubes because I don't want to deal with the non-compliant cats or the noise. That leaves meth.

Syvecs sells a (pricy) meth controller that polls CAN data, so I can trigger directly off airflow mass and have a reliable setup. There are plenty of WMI kits available for NA motors, so the idea isn't that far out in left field. Howver I can't find a single example of someone doing it on a Coyote online.


I priced the setup out and its approximately $1300 to install myself. I'm not delusional, I know that there's only so much to get on a stock gen 3 if I made 430-450 wheel I'd be stoked. There are two things sticking in my mind about this idea:

1. I don't know if the benefits of meth are realized on an NA motor, Gen3 is 12:1 compression, which is fairly high, and the methanol in the spray will help to boost octane.
2. I don't know if there's an easy way to adjust the fueling, I looked and there's no obvious way to break into the closed loop fuel system to account for the extra "fuel" sprayed by the meth kit. So from what I see now, spraying meth will caused fuel trims to get out of whack at WOT and there's nothing that can be done to fix it.


I know this isn't a typical tuning question, but its related enough, and I consistently get intelligent answers on this forum lmao.

Let me know what you think, interesting idea? or guaranteed waste of cash?

[deanm11]

Like the title says, I'm playing with the idea of putting meth injection on an NA gen3 coyote. Unfortunately I don't have ethanol nearby, the closest station is over an hour away. Boostane/Octanium is not great for consistent use on a street car. I have no desire to do longtubes because I don't want to deal with the non-compliant cats or the noise. That leaves meth.

Syvecs sells a (pricy) meth controller that polls CAN data, so I can trigger directly off airflow mass and have a reliable setup. There are plenty of WMI kits available for NA motors, so the idea isn't that far out in left field. Howver I can't find a single example of someone doing it on a Coyote online.


I priced the setup out and its approximately $1300 to install myself. I'm not delusional, I know that there's only so much to get on a stock gen 3 if I made 430-450 wheel I'd be stoked. There are two things sticking in my mind about this idea:

1. I don't know if the benefits of meth are realized on an NA motor, Gen3 is 12:1 compression, which is fairly high, and the methanol in the spray will help to boost octane.
2. I don't know if there's an easy way to adjust the fueling, I looked and there's no obvious way to break into the closed loop fuel system to account for the extra "fuel" sprayed by the meth kit. So from what I see now, spraying meth will caused fuel trims to get out of whack at WOT and there's nothing that can be done to fix it.


I know this isn't a typical tuning question, but its related enough, and I consistently get intelligent answers on this forum lmao.

Let me know what you think, interesting idea? or guaranteed waste of cash?

I've given this some thought as I have an Alky control kit, Snow meth ring, Devil's own nozzles on the shelf for when I thought I was going to go Forced induction.

These motors have lots of room for power increase with better fuel of some kind. Ethanol is super because is it higher octane and runs way cooler. Injecting water/meth will achieve a measure of that but I suspect 10gph+ would be required to get somewhere approaching the benefit of Ethanol. I buy my "E80" (tests~80%) in jugs about 20 miles from my house. At some point, I would consider meth if I only gave up a few hp and didn't go through more than a gallon per tank of 93. There is a good bit of better power on E85 even ad mid-loads medium RPMS so you'd need be spraying a good bit if you're dipping into the power regularly.

I would aim to have my trims running at say 5-8% leaning out so that the trims could swing through zero to as much 20% the other way when its spraying.

[junits15]

I've given this some thought as I have an Alky control kit, Snow meth ring, Devil's own nozzles on the shelf for when I thought I was going to go Forced induction.

These motors have lots of room for power increase with better fuel of some kind. Ethanol is super because is it higher octane and runs way cooler. Injecting water/meth will achieve a measure of that but I suspect 10gph+ would be required to get somewhere approaching the benefit of Ethanol. I buy my "E80" (tests~80%) in jugs about 20 miles from my house. At some point, I would consider meth if I only gave up a few hp and didn't go through more than a gallon per tank of 93. There is a good bit of better power on E85 even ad mid-loads medium RPMS so you'd need be spraying a good bit if you're dipping into the power regularly.

I would aim to have my trims running at say 5-8% leaning out so that the trims could swing through zero to as much 20% the other way when its spraying.

For some reason WMI suppliers seems to be impossible to find online unless you know their name already, but I'm glad you mentioned Alky control because they sell a really nice 2gal tank with a good quality lid and a level sensor.

AEM recommends about 6 gal/hr for a 500 crank hp setup, Aquamist recommends 11 gal/hr. I was planning on doing like 8 gal/hr with 2 nozzles. Maybe going up to 12 with 2x 6's would be better as its always easy enough to cut back on flow and leave headroom. That's all stuff I'd figure out once its installed and being tuned anyway.

I think I'm going to at least give it a try, worst case I remove the system or leave it on standby until I can eventually go FI. I do get a lot of pushback on the idea though, but its hard to know if its because the collective V8 N/A mind hasn't adopted meth or if its because there is legitimately a massive downside to it. Other than boostane, there really isn't another option for me, there are three stations with ethanol in my entire state :|

[junits15]

I just considered this too:
Boostane professional is $30/can, to go from 93 to 100 oct I need 15 oz of it or a bit less than half the can, so that's $15 per fill. Premixed boost juice is $15 a gallon, it remains to be seen if I'd consume a gallon per tank of gas, but my guess is no. Could probably do the washer fluid + heet trick and save a few bucks too.

I think i'm going to try it, might be fun, and if it works out maybe someone else in a similar situation to me could get some use out of the idea.

[Relentless]

Injecting any other fuel in these motors with the stock ECU will cause you head aches. Injecting water works well for detonation control and will allow you to run more boost/timing. I would not put this on a stock compression N/A motor. You would likely see little increase in power. The octane in E85 is not the main cause for increased power (on an N/A motor), ethanol has more energy potential then gasoline per pound of air at target air/fuel mixtures.

[junits15]

Injecting any other fuel in these motors with the stock ECU will cause you head aches. Injecting water works well for detonation control and will allow you to run more boost/timing. I would not put this on a stock compression N/A motor. You would likely see little increase in power. The octane in E85 is not the main cause for increased power (on an N/A motor), ethanol has more energy potential then gasoline per pound of air at target air/fuel mixtures.

This is unfortunate, because at the end of the day I still can't get ethanol. Not enough stations in my state, nowhere to store a large drum, and too long of a commute to use regularly.

However I had always operated under the assumption that ethanol has less energy potential per unit volume than gasoline, which is why we need to run richer to reach stoich.

Either way I'm already in too deep, the system is mostly installed lol, so either I'll get power or I wont. I guess I'll see...

[veeefour]

However I had always operated under the assumption that ethanol has less energy potential per unit volume than gasoline, which is why we need to run richer to reach stoich.

Actually lower the stoich number gets the more power you can make - how much you can get into cylinder is what matter the most.
Hence top fuel running on nitro methane with stoichiometric ratio of 1.7...

WMI in a n/a engine...waste of time.

[junits15]

Actually lower the stoich number gets the more power you can make - how much you can get into cylinder is what matter the most.
Hence top fuel running on nitro methane with stoichiometric ratio of 1.7...

WMI in a n/a engine...waste of time.

What has your experience been? I know you've tuned a lot of cars, I'm curious how it worked out in real life. I find a lot of kits for NA cars for sale, and a lot of people saying they've done it NA online, but zero actual dyno numbers or talk about how it actually performed.

I can't figure out if the reason why there's so little evidence of its use is because most people don't want to deal with it, or if it actually doesn't work.

[veeefour]

So the deal is you can go WMI on n/a engine, this will run fine and can help you gain a pony or two.
The reason ppl wont talk is the gain is marginal and I mean very marginal...same with CAI they can help you.
We did some dyno testing and we could not say for sure the gain came from WMI or it was just a fluke...

If you are n/a gutted tin can race machine with forced induction funnel intake running on 14:1 compression - do it.
Otherwise - dont...

[junits15]

So the deal is you can go WMI on n/a engine, this will run fine and can help you gain a pony or two.
The reason ppl wont talk is the gain is marginal and I mean very marginal...same with CAI they can help you.
We did some dyno testing and we could not say for sure the gain came from WMI or it was just a fluke...

If you are n/a gutted tin can race machine with forced induction funnel intake running on 14:1 compression - do it.
Otherwise - dont...

hmmm
Its not looking good for this right now, but I'm in too deep. We'll see!

[Relentless]

However I had always operated under the assumption that ethanol has less energy potential per unit volume than gasoline, which is why we need to run richer to reach stoich.

potential power is usually per lbs

Methanol- 9500 btu/lbs -Stoich 6:1
Gasoline- 18400 btu/lbs-Stoich 14.7:1

Say you are flowing 75lbs/min

Methanol 75/6= 12.5 lbs of fuel * 9500=118,750 btu
Gasoline 75/14.7=5.1 lbs of fuel * 18400=93,877 btu

There are other factors that make methanol even more beneficial that is portraying. You can run methanol significantly richer without much consequence and significant advantages due to the amount of disolved oxygen in the fuel. Gasoline has very little oxygen and does not fair as well being pushed significantly past stoich.

[junits15]

potential power is usually per lbs

Methanol- 9500 btu/lbs -Stoich 6:1
Gasoline- 18400 btu/lbs-Stoich 14.7:1

Say you are flowing 75lbs/min

Methanol 75/6= 12.5 lbs of fuel * 9500=118,750 btu
Gasoline 75/14.7=5.1 lbs of fuel * 18400=93,877 btu

There are other factors that make methanol even more beneficial that is portraying. You can run methanol significantly richer without much consequence and significant advantages due to the amount of disolved oxygen in the fuel. Gasoline has very little oxygen and does not fair as well being pushed significantly past stoich.

Oh this is very interesting, now I understand. Even though gasoline has a higher energy density, it is nerfed by its relatively lean stoichiometric point. Alcohol has a much lower energy density but a relatively rich stoichiometric point. With both of these two things working against each other the alcohol comes out on top.

I'm no chemist but I can understand chemical structure diagrams and I'm able to see that there is oxygen in a methanol molecule but no oxygen in a gasoline molecule.

I am now wondering if this is the mechanism that allows meth injection to work at all, though we aren't adding much fuel we are adding oxygen that was not there otherwise. I don't know if that's how the reaction would work, but I'm just stabbing into the dark here.

[RobCat030]

Oh this is very interesting, now I understand. Even though gasoline has a higher energy density, it is nerfed by its relatively lean stoichiometric point. Alcohol has a much lower energy density but a relatively rich stoichiometric point. With both of these two things working against each other the alcohol comes out on top.

I'm no chemist but I can understand chemical structure diagrams and I'm able to see that there is oxygen in a methanol molecule but no oxygen in a gasoline molecule.

I am now wondering if this is the mechanism that allows meth injection to work at all, though we aren't adding much fuel we are adding oxygen that was not there otherwise. I don't know if that's how the reaction would work, but I'm just stabbing into the dark here.

Rich and lean are usually terms used relative to stoich. It's easy to think about alcohol fuels as having a "richer" stoich because it requires more fuel volume to achieve a stoich mixture, but it isn't "rich" in the sense of lambda or distance from an ideal combustion. Energy potential is also exactly that, just potential. ICE's are roughly 30-40% energy efficient IIRC (dont quote me).

The oxygen does matter because chemistry (also not a chemist lol), the larger contributor is alcohol's heat absorption ability providing a thermally-based octane boost.

[junits15]

Rich and lean are usually terms used relative to stoich. It's easy to think about alcohol fuels as having a "richer" stoich because it requires more fuel volume to achieve a stoich mixture, but it isn't "rich" in the sense of lambda or distance from an ideal combustion. Energy potential is also exactly that, just potential. ICE's are roughly 30-40% energy efficient IIRC (dont quote me).

The oxygen does matter because chemistry (also not a chemist lol), the larger contributor is alcohol's heat absorption ability providing a thermally-based octane boost.

Yes you are correct, I guess I shouldn't have said "rich" or "lean" but rather smaller or larger stoichiometric ratio.


I guess we can assume that the combustion efficiency is constant and the calculations still hold. Larger potential energy yields larger actual energy. Its not an appropriate measure of engine output power, but I would assume we can use this math to know which fuels have the ability to generate more output power.

The question the remains to be seen, which I hope to answer in another week or so, is if the effective octane increase from the combustion cooling and added oxygen is enough to yield a good power increase.

We shall see how this all plays out! I'm too far into this to turn back at this point, maybe I'll find that it works, or maybe it will be what Veefour said and these PTFE braided hoses I've installed will all be repurposed for nitrous LOL.

[RobCat030]

Yes you are correct, I guess I shouldn't have said "rich" or "lean" but rather smaller or larger stoichiometric ratio.


I guess we can assume that the combustion efficiency is constant and the calculations still hold. Larger potential energy yields larger actual energy. Its not an appropriate measure of engine output power, but I would assume we can use this math to know which fuels have the ability to generate more output power.

The question the remains to be seen, which I hope to answer in another week or so, is if the effective octane increase from the combustion cooling and added oxygen is enough to yield a good power increase.

We shall see how this all plays out! I'm too far into this to turn back at this point, maybe I'll find that it works, or maybe it will be what Veefour said and these PTFE braided hoses I've installed will all be repurposed for nitrous LOL.

For clarity, I wasn't mentioning the rich/lean thing for the sake of being the "actually" guy, so I hope it wasn't taken that way. I was just offering a different way of thinking about it.

Genuinely uncertain about whether or not the efficiency is a constant with either fuel. The mechanical losses (drivetrain, accessories, etc.) are definitely the same or at least negligibly different. I think that the other 70-80% of lost energy is primarily thermal efficiency (lost heat that doesn't generate torque). Whether or not an ICE can take better or equal advantage of a higher or lower BTU fuel at proportionally equal AFR's (already compensated for the additional quantity of Oxygen) might be more of a mechanical engineering question than a chemistry question. I'm rambling, but your posing the question now has me thinking, so I'm gonna research it lol.

Keep us updated though, and kudos to you for seeking out your own data and answers to the question!

[junits15]

For clarity, I wasn't mentioning the rich/lean thing for the sake of being the "actually" guy, so I hope it wasn't taken that way. I was just offering a different way of thinking about it.

Genuinely uncertain about whether or not the efficiency is a constant with either fuel. The mechanical losses (drivetrain, accessories, etc.) are definitely the same or at least negligibly different. I think that the other 70-80% of lost energy is primarily thermal efficiency (lost heat that doesn't generate torque). Whether or not an ICE can take better or equal advantage of a higher or lower BTU fuel at proportionally equal AFR's (already compensated for the additional quantity of Oxygen) might be more of a mechanical engineering question than a chemistry question. I'm rambling, but your posing the question now has me thinking, so I'm gonna research it lol.

Keep us updated though, and kudos to you for seeking out your own data and answers to the question!

No worries I understood what you meant I view this as a technical discussion so I don't take anything personally here.

I'll post an update when I have an answer, I'd like to verify it on a dyno which may take a little time to schedule.

[STAGEUP]

Meth on a NA coyote? Waste.

Create a separate ethanol or race gas tune for your coyote, keep a barrel of it somewhere, and be done.

[junits15]

Meth on a NA coyote? Waste.

Create a separate ethanol or race gas tune for your coyote, keep a barrel of it somewhere, and be done.

Is it a waste because there are better options? Or is it a waste because it doesn't work? Not trying to come off as confrontational, I'm genuinely trying to collect more knowledge on this.

The issue I'm up against is that, I can't get ethanol or race gas, its basically unobtanium near me. I also live in an apartment and cannot store a large quantity of fuel nearby.

[STAGEUP]

The time, hassle, and cost doesn't add up to the 5-10 hp you "might" gain. But that's my opinion. As Veefour stated, if your NA combo had crazy high static compression and was a "weekend warrior", then yes. But not worth it in a stock compression coyote, especially if you live in higher elevations or cooler climate areas.

Again, this is my opinion. Take it for what its worth. Been in this game for 25 years.

[SiriusC1024]

You see those two little tables about IAT spark corrections ? Those are the GAINZ you're going to get.

A water-meth kit from Snow is about the same price as a Zex nitrous kit...

Or if you want to go faster right now show me your tune.