Ideal Idle AFR and Spark

[WS6_LOU]

Might have included the wrong file, im not sure. Im starting to think I exhibit traits of dyslexia sometimes. I have a bunch of logs and I always forget to save them so I end up having to hunt through the scanner files one by one which is not a good method. I will take your advice and figure out a good system to stay organized but honestly I am trying to do too much at once. Maybe its my ADHD or my lack of patience, but I need to get a grip. Ill do some more reading up and testing in the next few days. Fill up the gas tank and go for a long ass drive until its on E again to get as good of a VE tune as I can get for the injector data I have. Might be skewed, I dont know. Ill report back with whatever I find. Thanks everyone.

[Hondaeater]

Might have included the wrong file, im not sure. Im starting to think I exhibit traits of dyslexia sometimes. I have a bunch of logs and I always forget to save them so I end up having to hunt through the scanner files one by one which is not a good method. I will take your advice and figure out a good system to stay organized but honestly I am trying to do too much at once. Maybe its my ADHD or my lack of patience, but I need to get a grip. Ill do some more reading up and testing in the next few days. Fill up the gas tank and go for a long ass drive until its on E again to get as good of a VE tune as I can get for the injector data I have. Might be skewed, I dont know. Ill report back with whatever I find. Thanks everyone.

These courses right here are FREE and very informative, I recommend everyone starting out tuning get this BASIC knowledge to begin learning to tune EFI. You have done pretty well researching but you are at the mercy of the information. Like the injector data issue early on with your project, you did not KNOW what is good advice and what is well intentioned but misleading.

https://www.hpacademy.com/courses/efi-tuning/

They have all kinds of other courses and the info is good, but it is also very generic. It is the concepts that are taught, which is great but at the same time it does not breakdown the specific tables in HP Tuners for Make/Model to achieve the final results.
These 6 FREE courses, did I mention that? 6 FREE COURSES !! should be required for any enthusiast to begin tuning.
You have some knowledge and more familiar with the HPT software and these courses will really shed some light on what you have figured out and I think things will click and get some Ah-ha moments from them. Let me know if you watch them and if it added anything to your skills.

Of interest for your VE tuning will be to watch the Dyno calibration. Car and software does not matter, but how the Dyno is used to fill in the VE fuel tables is.
You could drive around and gather a full tank worth of data and there will be some good data and averages but you could save some fuel and time and get BETTER data.
You will need to reset the LTFT as well, it is in the Scanner, the green button Vehicle Controls and Special Functions under fuel. You could go in there during a log and adjust the timing without having to change the tune file and find the desired idle rpm and or Advance you want as well. Scanner is the best part of HPT in my opinion.

For your VE, in the video, the Dyno holds the rpm, and as he increases the TB opening, it populates the graph in 1 RPM range. Now that is cool on a load holding Dyno, but you may not be using a Dyno. What you want to recreate as best you can is the airflow that is associated with a particular RPM and TB opening. HOW to do that? Hmm.
What happens in 1st gear if you tip throttle in while moving/ not stopped, starting about 1200RPM, TPS 15 percent. Just hold it there at about 15percent, do not lower it ANY, if anything go more to TPS 16-17 percent is better than lowering it, and hold this UNTIL 4000 rpm and save log of just that tps and rpm run.
The initial understanding of this process I hope is going to pay off. Watching that Dyno tune is going to help too.

Review log, Observe the Scanner channels for MAP, RPM, TPS, and look at the graph for VE error too. Do not make the common mistake I see on here all the time, Either use OL and monitor WB error graph or use CL and fuel trims graph but do not mix and match. If the ECM is trimming fuel +/- then the WB is picking up the AFTER-Effect of the resulting combustion event. If large amounts of fuel are being added by the ECM in LTFT/STFT then the WB IS GOING TO SHOW RICH, but that is the result of the ECM compensation. With less compensation, the closer the WB OL is going to be to the CL fuel trims and they will mirror each other if all is correct. The trims are "fixing" the error from the BASE VE table (and final fuel modifiers) to achieve the target AFR/Lambda. Our goal is to adjust/calibrate the VE so the ECM compensation in CL is near zero. In OL since there is NO compensation and you need to be pretty close and diligently watch the Error graph because if it is lean it IS lean and there is no safety net like CL where the ECM sees it going lean/rich and compensates to protect itself. You are the safety net in OL and why it is better to sneak up to this high 4000rpm in OL. In CL you can run it from the 1200-4000rpm and let ECM do it's thing. In OL you might want to stop at 3000 and evaluate the errors. If you have less than 5-10percent then it should be ok to run it to 4000 and then adjust VE for the errors in OL. If you have 10percent or more then you really need to watch the Lambda or AFR values to prevent damage. CL is safer for a novice period.

Back to the Dyno example. ?? Did Dyno video demonstration modulate or "pump" the gas pedal while Dyno tuning the VE table? NO. Did he go up and down a bunch of rpm ranges while dialing in the VE, again NO. So there must be a reason for this. We need the CONSTANT airflow to be measured not fluctuating and variable because we are tuning the BASE table that all the TPS changes and fuel modifiers are going to use for the final fuel delivery. If the air is not stable and constant then the Base table wont be stable and consistent. It should be repeatable. On the Dyno after calibrating a particular RPM you could come back and set the Dyno back to same load and rpm restriction and it should provide the same VE result again, Yes or Yes?

Consistency is the goal on tuning the VE. On the road we can find it hard to keep TPS in same position for safety sake (traffic), but we can try and maintaining a set rpm and load is impossible... only on the Dyno. We can use a work around on the street though.....

Back to your VE tune. While reviewing the 1st gear log you made, starting at 1200rpm, TPS 15percent, run up to 4000rpm, take a note of the MAP values before and during. Tip in will start 75kPa or more, but as rpm increases the MAP kPa drops lower and lower into more vacuum. The manifold is an empty "chamber" of air that "feeds" the hungry cylinders on one side and a valve to refill it on the other (TB). When you open TB the atmosphere we are breathing (at sea level) is about 14.7psi. When you do the Key-on-Engine-off before cranking you are looking for MAP value around 101 (sea level). *** What was the manifold kPa BEFORE tip in, that is the "vacuum" or less than atmospheric pressure (remember key-on-engine-off kPa)? See how it increased as TB opens on tip in? But what happens to kPa as rpm increases AFTER tip in? The manifold pressure increased at tip in because rpm was only 1200 and TB allowed more atmospheric pressure into manifold increasing kPa and is greater than the amount of air being consumed by each piston stroke. But as rpm increased the air inside the manifold starts to be consumed or "eaten", filling the Cylinders volume and that manifold goes back into vacuum dropping kPa. On the graph you can see as RPM increases the kPa moves at a diagonal across the table getting progressively lower. Now for this 1st gear example, TPS 15 percent, look how the data is diagonally populated. We don't have a Dyno but we have something that CAN BE REPEATED!! We CAN hold the TPS percent and allow RPM to increase without any more increase of TPS and get repeatable fuel trim values.

Do the same test (on same road) and again 1st gear TPS 15 start rpm at 1200. Should be VERY close to the same data or you may have inadvertently moved TPS which is VERY sensitive when gathering this data. The more stable you are, the more consistent and reliable the data, the better calibration you will have. Try to get the data completed in 1 day and hopefully less than 3deg of temp change in the atmosphere. If you start tuning in the cooler morning the air is more dense and has more o2 in it. Later in the day it becomes hot and the air actually has less o2, less dense. So either is ok to tune but it is better to get a BASELINE in cooler temps so the compensation tables that use the BASE VE are not WAY over compensating. Trying to get a MEAN BASE table so it is in the middle and if we do this at 50deg then you have 50 to 100 deg and from 50 to 0 deg balance. If you tune this in 95 deg it will work just fine but then in Fall you will see big swings in the fuel trims. The ECM IS making the adjustment from Base table to what is needed so it is being "fixed" in real-time but the closer the Base VE is to actual required the less the ECM has to work to achieve our goal of stoich or whatever the target AFR is and the better it will run all the time regardless of temps.

Ok now that the concept has been established, do another log at 30percent TPS and again start at 1200rpm. Do the same thing, tip in to target TPS of 30percent and HOLD IT THERE. Let the engine increase rpm populating the VE and it will be another diagonal line as rpm increases the kPa will fall. But this time it will hit different cells. It should "stripe" the VE graph holding the higher kPa at tip in longer then decreasing the kPa slower because we are providing more "refill" to the manifold from atmospheric pressure with the TB open more. Engine still consumes "eats" the air in the manifold as rpm increases but slower because we are refilling it faster with that 30percent TPS instead of 15, and it may end up at the same kPa in the end of the run (4000rpm) with a crossing of the data plot from the 2 tps values of 15 and 30. That is to say the kPa may "join" near 30kPa until you reach 4000rpm. By the way, if 15percent TPS runs out of acceleration before reaching 4000rpm for the run then you are done, that's it... when it reaches a static rpm. Avoid the temptation of increasing the TPS when it quits accelerating. that is all the data you get for that target TPS and begin NEXT TPS percent test, starting 1st gear from 1200rpm, 30percent TPS, and run up to 4000rpm.

Ultimately you will want to do this in each gear. 1200rpm to 4000rpm, TARGETS: 15percent TPS, 30percent TPS and 45-55percent TPS "striping" the graph table with data. It is repeatable, consistent and reliable. On the WOT runs you would start about 2500rpm and punch it which will populate the missing VE areas you can not get using the previous method. In the end, there will be some portions of the VE that do not get populated and knowing how to populate the kPa using the target TPS method you should be able to infer how to get to those missing VE areas. You want to fill in any missing areas using 4th if possible. Light throttle in 4th gear is not going to hit high rpm and low kpa which is why we are using the different gears to populate those areas. You would rarely use those areas anyway, look at what you are having to do to reach that area to calibrate the VE! so in normal driving it does not really get into them. But to be complete calibration we need to do it.
Well another Novel and I look forward to the results.
Stay tuned!

[smokeshow]

These courses right here are FREE and very informative!

Bro I think kingtalon hijacked your account.

[Hondaeater]

Bro I think kingtalon hijacked your account.

HHHAAAHHHAAA
I know! It was getting long and probably lost a few people on the way.
I will provide cliff notes upon request lol.

[WS6_LOU]

Thanks for the reply. I had always read that you just drive normal when dialing in the VE on the street. And at the time I would realize there were certain spots in the VE you don?t hit normally. My work around was to hold the brakes to set a certain speed and then vary the tps to hit all (most anyways) the map cells. But now after you?ve explained it and watching the videos I now see that method is not very repeatable at all. My lack of experience saw the cells populating and figured all was well. What I didn?t realize is that like you stated it was sweeping through too fast to get solid data. So it seems I?ve just been using bad data, thinking it?s good, but really it was pushing me farther away from where I should be.

Now, I did as you mentioned and logged a quick drive from 1200 rpm to 4k rpm (was only able to get up to around 3k though) and used CL to make sure my AFR stays where it should. However, on the way back to my garage I noticed I was pressing on the throttle but my TPS was stuck at like .33 v and would fluctuate at idle when I got back home. Sometimes it would be .25, sometimes .27, other times .33. After I saw that I immediately went and bought a new TPS sensor, installed it, and now it idles MUCH better. After doing a tps reset I noticed the volts were at .57 and rock solid when before they were .25. So seems to me that my tps volts were messing up during driving and giving me false rich/lean spots. I haven?t been able to do a good VE log like you mentioned since it started to pour just before I was about to head out. So I will try again tomorrow. For now I have these questions;

1.) When dialing in the VE should I just focus on sticking to 15%, 30%, and 45-50% tps or should I also do some in between those like in 5% intervals? And im assuming this is repeated until it?s +/- 5% variance? I did see how it was striping the VE table from around 70-75 kpa up to around 20 kpa when I held TPS at 10% but didn?t try any other ones because my neighborhood streets had some massive puddles from the rain. For some reason around 3k rpm it goes STUPID LEAN where my wideband would show 20+ if it was in OL (which is exactly why I?m in CL for this). Not sure if that?s just a hole in my VE I need to fix or if it?s caused by something else.

2.) When I re-did the Russ K idle config, I noticed it asked for somewhere around 8 g/s of RAF but after a drive I noticed it wanted closer to 6.5. Which one do I trust? I?m assuming the lower since if it is asking for higher at start up idle, the IAC will open and cause the counts to go up. My operating temp IAC counts are around 40 and if I use the higher amount, I don?t think it would have enough IAC steps to remove almost 2 g/s where as if it?s set at 6.5 and needs to open to get up to 8 it has all the room to move up. Does that make sense?

3.) I seem to get conflicting advice where some people say it?s okay to VE/MAF tune with the stock narrowbands while others say you should avoid it because it?s not accurate. It never made sense to me because the O2s, even though they can tel how far lean or rich they are, they ultimately add enough fuel if it stays lean until it goes rich and then it pulls fuel. So in that instance it does need to know how rich or lean it is, it just needs to know how much fuel it needs to add at a given RPM and MAP to get back around stoich. Is that a right way to look at it?

I?m not at home right now but I will upload the tune file and log so you can see what I mean. I appreciate your time explaining things to me like a caveman. You are a life saver.

[schpenxel]

I’m not even sure what is spam and what is real in this thread, lol

I keep getting reports of spam posts

[Hondaeater]

1) VE , I recommend the 15, 30, 45-50. Once you get the bulk of the table done like this you can go back and go in-between if needed. I would shoot for +/- 2-3 percent. Do it all in the same day if possible to keep a change of atmospheric conditions to a minimum. Does it show 20 percent at 3000rpm in CL? You should set PE TPS enable in cold and hot tables to 75 percent.
If you need WOT power it's available but we do not want PE kicking in while calibrating the BASE VE table for part throttle. You can set the rpm delay to 4000 as well to prevent going into PE.
Post the log if you have it where it goes lean, and of course the tune file associated with that log.
2) Did you redo the idle after the new TPS sensor? A log of part throttle and op temp idle will help. The injector data may need tweaking for part throttle and idle. 8g/s but with your cam you may need a little more not less. Look at Dynamic airflow. What is it's value and is it same as idle desired? You would need to turn off the adaptive idle trims to get this right. If this portion is off then the part throttle VE portion of table will be off. Getting the ve close, then checking the offset table is next.
Need a drive log of part throttle and op temp idle log parked at the end. If any issue desired airflow is slowly coming down wait till it stabilized before shutting off. Open his so you don't get false hot IAT/ heat soak but this idle time is crucial.
A child start is helpful but ambient temp looks like 80's ?? To hot for much cold start adjustment but some is better than none and the trend is important.
3) if you plan on track only with the car you'll want to be open loop and adjust it throughout the day at the track but if this is going to be driven daily you will want to tune it the way you plan on driving it which should be closed loop. Even on a dino if you tune this vehicle perfectly on the dyno and then take it out on the streets and drive it it's going to behave differently and need some changes to the ve not a lot but some. Other than a load on the tires that's just not the same as how the car behaves moving through the friction of air and the resistance on the road surface, the cooling fans everything. CL works fine for part throttle. WOT/ PE and OL cold start up needs WB or you're guessing.

[WS6_LOU]

I did redo the RAF this morning after the new TPS. I disabled the fans and removed the LTIT from storing any values. It idles pretty well now and significantly better than with the old TPS. Might consider getting a new IAC just to make sure its all good. I also did the first gear log like you suggested where it shows the lean spots. There is also some 3rd gear 15% tps in there as well. The IAT temps is just something I have to deal with living in Florida. Its like that almost 3/4 of the year. Only a month or two see "frigid" 70 degree weather and rarely do we get anything lower than 60 (unless super early in the morning during winter but I never start my car up that early). I did figure out my lean start up is caused by my IAT heat soaking. I read there is a way to fix this using the Cylinder Charge Temperature Bias to bias more towards ECT instead of IAT and IAT enrichment tables. I havent messed with this but will probably end up skewing the Bias towards ECT and adjusting the IAT enrichment tables since it really only has an effect after 105-110 IAT on start up. Probably add .25-.30 at 140 IAT and interpolate down to 105 to start and adjust from there.

I may not be able to do any VE tuning today either because it looks like its about to pour. But we will see. As of now, heres the log that you suggested where it shows the lean spot in the VE. If you notice at the end the desired is almost 1 g/s lower than what the idle config said was perfect which causes my IAC sterps to drop below 30 when they are normally at 40 with near 0 LTIT/STIT. Ill also include that RAF log with its respective tune. Let me know what you think.

[kingtal0n]

I did redo the RAF this morning after the new TPS. I disabled the fans and removed the LTIT from storing any values. It idles pretty well now and significantly better than with the old TPS. Might consider getting a new IAC just to make sure its all good. I also did the first gear log like you suggested where it shows the lean spots. There is also some 3rd gear 15% tps in there as well. The IAT temps is just something I have to deal with living in Florida. Its like that almost 3/4 of the year. Only a month or two see "frigid" 70 degree weather and rarely do we get anything lower than 60 (unless super early in the morning during winter but I never start my car up that early). I did figure out my lean start up is caused by my IAT heat soaking. I read there is a way to fix this using the Cylinder Charge Temperature Bias to bias more towards ECT instead of IAT and IAT enrichment tables. I havent messed with this but will probably end up skewing the Bias towards ECT and adjusting the IAT enrichment tables since it really only has an effect after 105-110 IAT on start up. Probably add .25-.30 at 140 IAT and interpolate down to 105 to start and adjust from there.

I may not be able to do any VE tuning today either because it looks like its about to pour. But we will see. As of now, heres the log that you suggested where it shows the lean spot in the VE. If you notice at the end the desired is almost 1 g/s lower than what the idle config said was perfect which causes my IAC sterps to drop below 30 when they are normally at 40 with near 0 LTIT/STIT. Ill also include that RAF log with its respective tune. Let me know what you think.

You can use this table , I think, to help with heat soak on startup, it adds fuel for some length of time to compensate for the heat soak "heat soak table" I guess thats what its for, its how I use it
hotsoak_enrichment.jpg

If you bias to CTS then anytime the CTS wanders so will your a/f ratio in those regions. I tried this and did NOT appreciate that. I prefer the IAT.

You can also relocate the IAT to somewhere and add a plastic washer.
And reduce the sensitivity of the IAT to temperature changes in regions where the difference is negligible.

[WS6_LOU]

Ah I see what you mean. I?ll leave the bias table alone then and focus on the after start enrichment. I had to run to the store for some stuff and took the car. Seemed to drive well in CL though I did notice that if you press the gas a little (somewhere around 5% tps) my wideband will peg lean nearing 30:1 AFR sometimes even being so lean it?s unreadable (where it?ll just show dashes) and if you keep it there it will start to come back down after a couple of seconds. The log I included in my last post doesn?t show it but it seems to happen almost exclusively between 1400-2000 rpm depending on gear. Seems to be the worst in 1st gear and the best in 6th gear. If you?re cruising in gear and let off the throttle completely and then just open the throttle quicker it feels like it?s being slammed like if you?re in a high gear and jab the throttle. I haven?t tried to increase this part of the VE by say 25% to see if it?ll fix it but that?ll have to wait until tomorrow since it?s now raining again. I may also have to work on my throttle cracker as I?ve noticed it drops below target when coming to a stop (target is 800 and drops to around 600) and I believe the only reason it doesn?t stall is because my spark map has the 1200 rpm and under and .28 or so and under cells at 26 which is what my MBT is. That way if it does drop below target while I?m moving it?ll have a burst of torque to help bring it back up and prevent a stall. Neat little trick I picked up from another forum member by the name of Mowton.

[WS6_LOU]

Heres a few logs of between 10-15% constant TPS. It does seem to get better but I still have that problem where my AFRs go super lean. You can see it some in the "LQ9 4.5.4 log" around time stamp 2:41. Also, in that log my WOT run showed I was going lean (and actually ended up pulling 3 degrees of timing from knock) was because I didnt realize I was near E and the stock fuel pump bucket had to be modified to fit the larger pump and so no longer keeps it full so I always try and keep it above 1/4 tank, 1/2 tank preferably. I just forgot I did a lot of idling and driving and 5 gallons of gas doesnt get you that far.

Anyways, seems like its getting better but there still seems to be a hole in the VE as seen in "LQ9 4.5.4 log" at 1600 rpm and 50-55 kpa. It used to be worse so hopefully with the modification from that data itll get better. Im shooting for under +/- 5% throughout the VE. My method of adjusting the VE is to use the "Paste Special - Multiply by % half" that way I creep up on it and dont over shoot it. If its off by more than 15-20% consistently I just add 20% to that area so im rich next go around. Let me know what yall think. Thanks for your help.

[kingtal0n]

I think you should make a log like this
wbafter-a-day-of-tuning.png

Then bring it inside sit down at the kitchen table with some coffee and manually go through the log step by step fine tuning the VE table with point adjustments.
Pay attention to the transient delay and watch the wideband analog voltage rate of change. In other words the time it takes for fuel to be injected burnt and turned into exhaust plays a role in the rate of response from the wideband depending where the wideband is and what rpm is so as you watch the fuel map moving around and the wideband voltage is changing if the rpm is low and the wideband is far you need to think 1 cell ahead or two cells sometimes. Not where it is but where it was or will be.

[WS6_LOU]

Hmm interesting. Was that log created on a dyno? Because it sure looks like it. I?ve tried that method but it requires me to hold the brakes. I can never do it long enough to get an entire rpm column though. If I did I wouldn?t have brake pads left after 1 run. Hondaeaters method is easier to do on the street and saves my brakes and rotors. Most of the data was done in a small 1/4 mile strip of road by my house. I just looped back and forth.

But it?s interesting you bring up the point about taking into consideration the time it takes ignited fuel and air to pass by my wideband. If it?s 16:1 afr at 2k rpm but sweeps fast it would populate the cells just past it. Makes sense actually and I bet that?s why he suggested to do a constant tps. That way it spends more time in that cell and avoids that issue. Repeating it several times would get pretty solid results. I couldn?t do much today since the roads were wet but I?ll try to do more tomorrow after I get some more gas.

[kingtal0n]

My log came from 40 min to 1 hour of street driving usually. Dyno logs are short, 3minutes or something.

I'm not sure what you mean by holding brakes. Just drive the car normally. Take off from a stoplight like its a drag strip but then let off before you reach dangerous or illegal speeds. Tune for all conditions you normally face. If you log for an hour or two it will populate thousands of data points. Then, use filters to rule out data you don't want to see, like when TPS < 3% or whatever. You filter for deceleration, acceleration, steady state, and so forth. The filtering is for raw data processing so you can rapidly make large changes. Then, sitting quietly at the table a little while later, you make spot changes. Remove some of the global mess from earlier and make an exact change. This way your VE table can become smooth, make sense, and actually tuned.

Smoothness is essential. Use 3D to make it smooth as you go.
latestve.png

None of the tuning you do in the VE table will matter and make sense unless everything else is done first. VE is the next to last thing you tune. First, injector data size, quality fuel injectors, fuel pressure, airflow model, spark calibrated, mechanical and electrical issues, fuel supply, spark energy, gap, spark delivery, insulation, engine damping/vibration, exhaust leaking, boost leaking, crankcase pressure testing, OEM PCV setup, compression test, timing verification, transmission,ALL Of that needs to be finished more or less before you finalize the VE map. Then, you can tune idle last of all.

[HQforme]

Once again i'm finding great info here related to my car. Thanks to all involved. I too am chasing that lean hot start up, it'll race straight to 18-19/1 on a commanded idle AFR of 15.2-15.3 (big cam) then settle after a while. I've started dabbling with that heat soak enrichment table. Have you had results there? On the weekend i'll do a quick test, get it to full temp, ensure it's starting lean, go to the heatsoak enrichment table, throw some nominal figure like +25% across the board, flash, fire up and see.

[Hondaeater]

I see where it went lean on tip in. I did not have time to look over the previous iterations to see the log of part throttle and the idle at the end. It would show if the offfset table needed to be adjusted BEFORE THE ve was touched. Just go with what uyou have I guess. the lean at throttle tip in is transient but you need to get the idle VE portion sorted out first, fix the Efeective area again that is the last thing before messing with the transient. If the IAC effective area is off then the extra airflow is going to effect the the tip in so all this is a process. You almost have the idle airflow to the 8g/s which is right at the lower rpm target now. The STIT LTIT is still adjusting for the BRA being off and the IAC count is not as low as it should be which means the TB is not open enough which means you should not adjust the IAC effective area until that is sorted out which means the transient fuel tables should not be touched until the IAC count, BRA , VE at idle and part throttle, and effective area table are finished THEN you can worry about the off idle tip in fuel. You do not need to fix that and WHY I suggested starting about 1200-1500 not a closed throttle and I mentioned slow down in the gear to get the 1200 rpm for each pull up to 4000. No time was it suggested to tune the WOT portion and go above the 4000 limit but you go man. keep it up , eventually youll be satisfied but it can be better. If the transition to WOT/PE has errors before going into OL PE then
The 1st 2 minutes of the 4.5.4 log are useless since the IAT is so high. Until it came down to 90s you need to ignore and filter that data. Adjusting the BASE VE... understand that, it is the BASE from which those high IAT temps will use the BASE VE to compensate for the high temp deg NOT what you TUNE the BASE using a high temp IAT. Then when the IAT is ore normal the fuel's BASE VE will be skewed. Fuel temps and IAT make a difference in tuning the BASE fuel map. If you have a huge 525lph pump where it goes up to the engine bay and then returns back to the tank after the FPR then it gets hot and dumps hot fuel into the tank this continues and the longer you drive the more influence the hot fuel has on the whole tank of fuel which makes the gas less dense which changes the AFR mixture which makes the VE look like it is off but it COULD be the fuel temp effecting tune. Air temps are the same way, hot air is less dense which has less o2 and together your tune will be off.

Did you reset the LTFT after each change in the VE table? After you make the change in the VE and reset the LTFT in Special functions green button, you need to go drive a few minutes in stop light type street driving to allow the ECM to gather data for the new VE. Then go do the method of tps percent hold as before.

[Hondaeater]

Once again i'm finding great info here related to my car. Thanks to all involved. I too am chasing that lean hot start up, it'll race straight to 18-19/1 on a commanded idle AFR of 15.2-15.3 (big cam) then settle after a while. I've started dabbling with that heat soak enrichment table. Have you had results there? On the weekend i'll do a quick test, get it to full temp, ensure it's starting lean, go to the heatsoak enrichment table, throw some nominal figure like +25% across the board, flash, fire up and see.

Add to the Fuel> OL > EQ ratio. When things are cold and dry surfaces, fuel sticks to the intake tract and only a portion makes it into the cylinder for combustion. What you need to do is add fuel in the colder ECT areas until it swings rich in WB. Then you can back it off or use after start table to tweak it. With the demand that far off you need to get the OL table closer to what is required, there is not enough adjustment in the after start to do this. Use the MAP and ECT to pinpoint where you are having the issue and blend the surrounding areas in the OL table. 25% is a good start in OL table area.

[HQforme]

Add to the Fuel> OL > EQ ratio. When things are cold and dry surfaces, fuel sticks to the intake tract and only a portion makes it into the cylinder for combustion. What you need to do is add fuel in the colder ECT areas until it swings rich in WB. Then you can back it off or use after start table to tweak it. With the demand that far off you need to get the OL table closer to what is required, there is not enough adjustment in the after start to do this. Use the MAP and ECT to pinpoint where you are having the issue and blend the surrounding areas in the OL table. 25% is a good start in OL table area.

It's a hot start issue so why am i chasing the colder areas? Sorry if i misinterpreted.

[Hondaeater]

It's a hot start issue so why am i chasing the colder areas? Sorry if i misinterpreted.

i may not have kept up with the issue but when you start going after the after start table that is in OL. The CL portion takes care of the stoich in fuel trims. Warm startup did you say was lean? The 1st 18 seconds of log 4.5.4 looks to be pretty good so I did not go into all the logs and all the tunes and I still see the STIT is adding about 1.5 g/s so the warm BRA is not correct yet. Certain things should be calibrated before going after so many changes at once. It takes the most time to get the idle and fuel flow sorted out then most things fall into place.
Post a log and tune of the specific issue please.

[WS6_LOU]

Hondaeater I think you were confusing me with HQforme.

Sorry for the late response, been busy with other stuff and havent had much time to work on my car. So I figured my VE was riddled with bad data due to high IAT temps giving lean readings and erratic throttle input. What I did was grab the VE from before I did the swap and tried it out. Since I mistakenly thought higher VE numbers means more fuel I figured a bigger engine with a better intake would require more fuel. But after what youve taught me, I now know thats not the case. After swapping back to my old VE tune that I knew was good before I did the swap, it was much much better. It was overall rich ranging from 3-10% in regular zones and 15%+ in the high vacuum deceleration areas when the throttle is closed. Figured this was a great starting point so I pressed on.

I did a RAF log and copied over the numbers, then letting it idle for another 10-15 minutes after uploading that tune. Then the following morning right around the same time and ambient temp as the day before, I did another RAF log. It was almost completely perfect, only off by .5-1 g/s in most cells but the colder temps were around 1.5 g/s off. So I uploaded the new RAF numbers and let it idle for 15 minutes like yesterday. I did this 2-3 days in a row until the RAF on the cold start through operating temp was within +/- .3 g/s. Now my RAF is dialed in which is good.

It has been ungodly hot the past few weeks, especially the past few days, so ive only managed to get 1 good very long drive worth of VE error logging. Its now almost there, normal driving cells are within 3-5% with the exception of high vacuum decel areas which show about 15% rich still. Ive been battling IAT temps like crazy. If I stop at a light for more than a minute my IAT temps are well over 120. Even high way driving at 80 mph doesnt help much and usually only lowers temps down to 97 while driving. Ocassionaly I can get it down to low 90s to high 80s if I coast a lot but it goes back within a few minutes of driving. Ill upload the logs and respective tunes.

For some reason CL causes a really bad lean condition on tip in that does not happen on OL (unless IAT temps get ridiculous but even then it maxes out at 16.5-17:1). Not sure if thats a transient issue but just weird that it happens on in CL.

Finally, id like to get some input on how to keep my IAT temps in check. Seems like driving between 12-4 pm is near impossible if im not constantly driving. After 4 is not much better until the sun is mostly down around 6-7 pm. What I plan on doing is using some heat reflective tape on the intake lid (cries cause I got a clear lid) to try and get rid of some heat transfer from the engine bay. If that doesnt have enough effect, ill reluctantly pull off the headers and wrap them in heat wrap. What else would yall suggest?

LQ9 Tune 4.9 = Updated tune file with pre-swap VE
LQ9 Tune 4.10 = VE changes from 4.9 log