Ideal Idle AFR and Spark

[WS6_LOU]

Ahh I see. In my case, ive had worse experience with higher idle timing. Ive tried setting it higher and it makes it way worse. Thats when I tried lowering it to see if I would get a better map reading and I did, significantly, but at around 5 degrees of idle timing. Ive set it back to 18 degrees, redid the VE table using the factory table. All I did was multiple the whole map by 1.1 for the increased engine size and reduced cells at idle by 5% to test. Upon firing, my AFRs were in the 23-24:1 so I quickly shut it off. I added 10% to the area I took out 5% from and got it go down to 15:1. I disconnected the ecu to remove the ecu plug to try and get access to the pins I needed but ran out of time and had to put it all back. Whats strange is I decided to run a test with my old tuning computer. It has regular usb ports but my new laptop only has usb c so ive been using a usb a to usb c adapter. I start logging with the engine off and my wideband DOES log and doesnt disappear. Now idk if it was because I reset the battery, but the same tune that had me at 15:1 now would barely run and would read an AFR of 11:1. I ordered new cables that dont need an adapter so hopefully that takes care of that issue. I should get them in sometime tomorrow and will let you know if it fixes that issue so I can get a good log to adjust the VE table.

Just for shits and gigs, what do you think of setting idle timing to 8-10 degrees and increasing the over under idle timing adjustments? Cause when I was running that low of idle timing, my car NEVER stalled. It actually would drop the RPMS FASTER than before but would never go more than 80 rpm below target.

[Hondaeater]

What version of windows? Are both those computers same OS?

[HQforme]

I'm going to answer this like a carby based layman (which i am) and let the experts laugh but i had many similar and common problems such as struggling to idle after a long decel, hunting, randomly picking a super high idle, stalling after a free rev etc. I've got a 236/242@050 hydraulic and no gear input so i figured the ecu may struggle to know which table to pick at what moment (I.E off throttle but RPM up on a downhill decel) and that the adaptive programming might have been fighting itself at times. For better, or more likely worse, i just turned off as much as i could and pretended it was a carby car just getting the air, fuel and spark i commanded. Keeping full OL, playing with base running air, timing and attempting to turn off adaptive, STFT, integral, cracker and what not and now it behaves rather well. I'm working towards seeing what i can turn back on to enjoy the benefits of what this ECU can do for you rather than being annoyed at it failing. A 4500 stall surely disguises some low rpm drivability issues compared to a manual. Do i suggest this? Probably not. With enough time on the wideband tuning OL my car idles and cruises within about half a point of stoich at pretty much all times, has a healthy lope and runs 12.7afr at WOT, however i'm sure the EFI guys shake their heads. What can i say, i miss tuning with a rubber hose, screw driver and small hammer. Haha

These other guys really seem to know their stuff so i'd be listening to them though . I will add that some of what they say i've done myself in the interests of drivability and can vouch for it.

[Hondaeater]

When you have speed vs RPM as in your high RPM downhill deceleration scenario that's your cracker air flow table. Anytime you're on the throttle it's referencing the idle follower table and if that happens to be at the same time you have road speed it's a combination of both tables. You do not even enter the idle routine until those air flow adders have diminished. This is assuming you have a VSS.
The biggest issue is not having the base idle sorted out in the first place.
The dynamic air flow and the idle desired should be very close.
Understanding how the engine works with a carburetor can make tuning EFI so much easier. Instead of pump shot springs and power valves we have accelerator enrichment and PE. Instead of vacuum advance we have a 3D table and we can further modify the timing based on engine coolant, intake temp, cold start up, and Target AFR compensation.
But if you don't know how to set up vacuum advance in a carburetor to run properly you may struggle with the advice because it all builds on the same principles.

[WS6_LOU]

Hondaeater Im on windows 11 now but my old laptop is windows 10. I got a new cable in today that goes from serial (wideband plug) to usb c (what my computer takes) and it solved the issue of disappearing wideband in logs. Apparently if you use an adapter it doesnt like it for some reason. I did notice that I most likely have an issue with my cable for my mpvi2 because when I started a log, the only thing showing up was my wideband. I should be getting a new cable in the mail pretty soon, so ill be doing a more in depth log. As of right now, heres where im at with it;

I sorted my stalling coming to a stop. At least, I havent had it happen again. I reworked the cracker table using the factory setting and got it to come down from idle much smoother. Ill have to do some further testing at different engine loads to make sure the issue has been rectified.

If you take a look at my log below, my desired and dynamic airflow are way off and I cant seem to figure out how to get them to line up like everyone else tells me.

My log says my LTIT is -3 g/s but when I tried reducing it by that it would not even hold an idle (this is where cable issue thoughts creep in) causing it to go into the stall and surge dance untill it dies. So I put it back to what it was, without changing anything else, my AFR would read 19-20:1!! Without changing anything else! Thats what really makes me believe im having some type of connection or data transfer problem.

I tried using the map from a stock file and increasing fueling by 15% but it proved to have terrible off-idle bucking and inconsistent power. I went back to a tune file that had a decent VE map and it drives much better now. I still plan on redoing the VE table because I changed the OL table to target 16.25:1 AFR at idle and 12.5:1 at WOT, Im just using it now because the car is undrivable otherwise.

I have attached a brief log of a quick drive to test for that stall coming to a stop issue along with the tune file I used. If you look at the beginning of the log you can see how lean I was. I was actually significantly leaner but couldnt start the log until a few seconds in otherwise the wideband reads 99.9. You would think that the tune needs way more fuel, but if you look at the end of the log where I idled a little bit before turning it off, you can see my wideband reads around 14:1. If you guys have any suggestions on what steps to take to get my desired and dynamic airflows to align id greatly appreciate it. I know how to do the Russ K idle config for RAF, I can do the AFR error for MAF and VE, but I struggle with figuring out how to get desired and VE to line up.

[Hondaeater]

WS6 LOU you have a few issues. Funny they are the same as another post I responded to, I wonder who may be helping both of you because it is such similar issues and tune set up poorly.
Hmm.

You have the Engine Diag set to fail MAF at 50hz ok that is 1st step to tune VE BUT you have the Airflow Dynamic set low for MAF only tuning??? Pick one. And the P0101-P0103 are set to MIL on 2nd error so it is kinda set up for MAF tuning but it fails as soon as it starts. Check out the pics.

Those fans are set real low. Do you have a 150 degree thermostat?

What size TB do you have?

I would not make any changes to your file until the fuel model you plan to tune is determined. Then get a cold start using these channles. You will need to add the AEM and please place that PID near the EQ ratio Commanded. Also use EQ ratio Lambda it is better than AFR. You are tuning in OL? ok Are you going to leave it like that? If you plan on using o2 sensors the OL table needs to be set to 1.00

The injector data is suspect. Deatschwerks 65 lb LS3 Injectors Stock Regulator and rails

A stock regulator? You need to put a gauge on that rail to verify your pressure.

DW 65lb LS3 injectors and yet your IFR table is set starting at 85lb? Even if you were using the 3bar to 4bar FP conversion it would not be 85lb/hr?

[WS6_LOU]

I can assure you the issues with my tune are all caused by me lol im very forgetful sometimes and I bet you I forgot to switch everything over from when I was tuning my MAF. I know when it comes to VE tuning, you need to increase the High RPM Disable to like 10k rpm so it doesnt use the MAF and change the fail frequency so it fails at startup.

The fans are at factory settings. I do have a cooler thermostat, somewhere around 160 I believe.

My TB is stock for now but I will be upgrading to a 102mm TB with the LS7 MAF so there are no reductions in the intake but I still have to do more research on how to get it all to work.

I got my wideband to show up on my datalogs now so on my next day off which is this monday ill be doing a proper VE and MAF tune so I can for sure say that my fueling is correct and any issues with fueling will be caused by something other than my MAF/VE tables. I have my EQ ratio set at .9 because I found that my engine idles the smoothest at slightly leaner AFR of 16-16.5:1. Im also in the process of getting my o2 sensors to work but havent had the time to dig deep since im in the middle of moving. Once they do start working then ill be reenabling CL to get smoother fueling.

The injector data does look weird but I triple checked with Deatschwerks and their techs took a look at my tune and said I used all the necessary tables and correctly inputted the data. I am running an almost stock fuel system except for the fuel pump and injectors.

My regulator is stock and I verified through a mechanical gauge tied into the fuel rail that it was getting the proper 58 psi of pressure and didnt fluctuate at all. When I turned it off the pressure stayed at around 55.

I added a corrected tune file to correct the things you mentioned and also includes the updated RAF. I used my last known good VE table numbers and spark tables to make sure that drivability is decent and doesnt buck super hard with terrible off-idle transitions like the stock map I tried to use before hand. The VE table is not perfect but its a very good start and at least I know WOT fueling is off by less than 5%. I will be doing a full tune on the VE and MAF on monday using your logging channels so that I know both tables are correct. That way if I get a lean hot start issue I know its not the VE/MAF tables.

What I mostly need help with is nailing down startup airflows, getting the desired airflow and dynamic airflows to match up, and getting a nicer sounding idle. Right now it idles all over the place and sounds very muffled.

[Hondaeater]

Isn't your stock firebird fpr a fuel filter diaphragm? It normally can't regulate a 255lph pump much less the Demon 525lph!!
I would have thought an LS3 GM 65lb/hr injectors would have been 65lb @ 58psi like most LS3. If it was non-specific, generic 65lb/hr injector then those are rated at 43.5psi. Looks like the injector data was converted from 3BAR to 4BAR for GM.

I'm glad you got it this far. I look forward to the logs and will watch your progress.
Looks like you got this so have fun.

[WS6_LOU]

I believe it is. I know there isn?t one on the rail so it has to be incorporated into the filter. But I did not know that stock filter would have issues regulating pumps bigger than stock! I tested the pressure at the tail and it was steady at 58 psi. What I will probably do is buy a new one before I tune the VE and MAF on Monday. I don?t know when it was last changed so it?s gotta be pretty old. Didn?t look terrible last time I laid eyes on it. But they are pretty cheap and easy to replace.

The fuel injectors are not a generic 65 lb injector. They are just rated at 65 lb when used in GM vehicles utilizing 58 psi of fuel pressure. I?m sure if you set these up to run at 43 psi you?ll get much less flow.

I re-did the Russ K idle config to make sure everything was still good and it was. I was off by about .5g/sec which is good. What I still have a problem with is a super lean start up both cold and warmed up. I know it?s not the VE table doing it because it idled down to 16:1 afr which is my target. What other tables could be causing such a lean condition at start up?? I?m wondering if it has something to do with idle startup airflow or the delay/decay tables.

[Hondaeater]

I believe it is. I know there isn?t one on the rail so it has to be incorporated into the filter. But I did not know that stock filter would have issues regulating pumps bigger than stock! I tested the pressure at the tail and it was steady at 58 psi. What I will probably do is buy a new one before I tune the VE and MAF on Monday. I don?t know when it was last changed so it?s gotta be pretty old. Didn?t look terrible last time I laid eyes on it. But they are pretty cheap and easy to replace.

The fuel injectors are not a generic 65 lb injector. They are just rated at 65 lb when used in GM vehicles utilizing 58 psi of fuel pressure. I?m sure if you set these up to run at 43 psi you?ll get much less flow.

I re-did the Russ K idle config to make sure everything was still good and it was. I was off by about .5g/sec which is good. What I still have a problem with is a super lean start up both cold and warmed up. I know it?s not the VE table doing it because it idled down to 16:1 afr which is my target. What other tables could be causing such a lean condition at start up?? I?m wondering if it has something to do with idle startup airflow or the delay/decay tables.

Have you looked at your injector flow rate table? There is not a 65lb/hr in the whole table unless I'm looking at the wrong file.

Is your initial cranking lean or are you lean AFTER it starts as it warms up?

[WS6_LOU]

It?s lean when I start it up. Typically around 22-24:1 and doesn?t have a smooth idle. By the time it?s warm the AFR is down to where it should be.

I went for a drive today and upon leaving my house, I hear a snap underneath my shifter and a loud bang when I give it gas. Turn back around and put it up on jack stands. Turns out my torque arm gave out and snapped the mount at the transmission. So looks like I need to get a new mount. But I think I?m just gonna order a tunnel mount torque arm with a spherical bushing for added support since I?m running much higher than stock hp and tq levels and I know the stock bushings and the flimsy metal the torque arm is made of do not take well to added power. So as of now I?m on stand by until it gets here so I will update you when I get it swapped out.

As for the injector data I?m not sure. I thought it was off too but I contacted Deatschwerks and they verified the injector data in my tune is correct.

[Hondaeater]

It?s lean when I start it up. Typically around 22-24:1 and doesn?t have a smooth idle. By the time it?s warm the AFR is down to where it should be.

I went for a drive today and upon leaving my house, I hear a snap underneath my shifter and a loud bang when I give it gas. Turn back around and put it up on jack stands. Turns out my torque arm gave out and snapped the mount at the transmission. So looks like I need to get a new mount. But I think I?m just gonna order a tunnel mount torque arm with a spherical bushing for added support since I?m running much higher than stock hp and tq levels and I know the stock bushings and the flimsy metal the torque arm is made of do not take well to added power. So as of now I?m on stand by until it gets here so I will update you when I get it swapped out.

As for the injector data I?m not sure. I thought it was off too but I contacted Deatschwerks and they verified the injector data in my tune is correct.

Well 65 lb injector but let's put 85 lb and more in the injector flow rate table yep that makes perfect sense. If it was 65 lb at three bar then I can see the four bar 58 PSI injector flow rate at 85+.
But that would make them LS3 GM 4 bar 85 lb injectors not 65lb. As long as it's working for you that's what counts good luck.

[Hondaeater]

It?s lean when I start it up. Typically around 22-24:1 and doesn?t have a smooth idle. By the time it?s warm the AFR is down to where it should be.

I went for a drive today and upon leaving my house, I hear a snap underneath my shifter and a loud bang when I give it gas. Turn back around and put it up on jack stands. Turns out my torque arm gave out and snapped the mount at the transmission. So looks like I need to get a new mount. But I think I?m just gonna order a tunnel mount torque arm with a spherical bushing for added support since I?m running much higher than stock hp and tq levels and I know the stock bushings and the flimsy metal the torque arm is made of do not take well to added power. So as of now I?m on stand by until it gets here so I will update you when I get it swapped out.

As for the injector data I?m not sure. I thought it was off too but I contacted Deatschwerks and they verified the injector data in my tune is correct.

As far as your lean issue so it's both lean at startup and while it warms up? Those are two events. If it's lean and start up you go to the fa1 table and increase the values at the temperature range column axis that's causing you problems. Increase the values in your open loop table by 0.05 until you get it rich enough then back it down until the WB and the commanded EQ ratio is the same.
If it's a lean like that it's going to skew your bra/ idle desired as well.

[WS6_LOU]

Its lean at cold start up and eventually settles down to around 15.5-16:1 which is my target once I get to full operating temp. Iirc it also does it at a hot start but gets to the target AFR much faster. I attached a log of when I did my RAF and you can see how lean it is towards the beginning once it starts reading. Im not sure which table is the FA1, can you show me?

[SiriusC1024]

Engine>Fuel>Open Loop/Base>EQ ratio and >Initial Adder vs ECT

These values are phi just like PE. Higher is richer.

[WS6_LOU]

So went and did a little VE tuning today after replacing my torque arm. I still have not figured out why every time you restart it the AFRs are over 20:1. I thought I had resolved it by changing the Initial Adder vs ECT but that didnt seem to work. However after doing a restart, I accidentally kicked the throttle pedal and instantly it went from 20:1 to 15-16:1. I did adjust my tb set screw to allow my IAC counts to go down and did multiple tps relearns. I have heard that there is an issue if you have too much tps voltage but Im not sure what it is exactly. My tps voltage at idle reads .65 is that too much? Also, the first log I was having issues and the wideband was not reading but that does start reading after a little bit. That one was a pain and had to spend a lot of time going through it to get bits and pieces to paste into my VE table. It also had a really bad stall coming to a stop so I reworked the cracker table and increased the Airflow Adder a bit and now it does not come to a stall at all so at least one problem is solved. The last one was a drive back home with some WOT pulls to check my fueling and to make sure the stall issue coming to a stop. Let me know if you see anything weird and if my tps voltage is too high, what it causes, and what I can do to fix it. I do notice that when I start it up it sounds like it fires, pauses, and then continues firing. Normally it just fires up without any pause. Not sure if thats something that can be fixed as im not sure why its doing it now.

[SiriusC1024]

If throttle has to be adjusted out too far then there are two options:

1) Drill a 5/32" hole in the throttle plate, adjust the plate back until TPS is 0V, and redo TPS learn. Enlarge if needed based on IAC cold and hot start values.
2) Waller out the mounting bolt holes of the TPS sensor so it can be clocked to read 0V at closed throttle.

Having done method 2, if I had to do it again I'd go with method 1.

[Alvin]

So went and did a little VE tuning today after replacing my torque arm. I still have not figured out why every time you restart it the AFRs are over 20:1. I thought I had resolved it by changing the Initial Adder vs ECT but that didnt seem to work. However after doing a restart, I accidentally kicked the throttle pedal and instantly it went from 20:1 to 15-16:1. I did adjust my tb set screw to allow my IAC counts to go down and did multiple tps relearns. I have heard that there is an issue if you have too much tps voltage but Im not sure what it is exactly. My tps voltage at idle reads .65 is that too much? Also, the first log I was having issues and the wideband was not reading but that does start reading after a little bit. That one was a pain and had to spend a lot of time going through it to get bits and pieces to paste into my VE table. It also had a really bad stall coming to a stop so I reworked the cracker table and increased the Airflow Adder a bit and now it does not come to a stall at all so at least one problem is solved. The last one was a drive back home with some WOT pulls to check my fueling and to make sure the stall issue coming to a stop. Let me know if you see anything weird and if my tps voltage is too high, what it causes, and what I can do to fix it. I do notice that when I start it up it sounds like it fires, pauses, and then continues firing. Normally it just fires up without any pause. Not sure if thats something that can be fixed as im not sure why its doing it now.

The issue with too much TPS voltage is a lot of the GEN 3 F body OS's will go to the idle spark table at full throttle which sometimes has way more timing than you want. It can be a disaster.


I'm much more in favor of a hole in the blade. That is how the OEM does it.. Less chance of the gap between the blade and the bore being fouled by carbon and close up or not expand at the same rate as the throttle body warms up.

[Jay@HAP]

"Closed Loop Proportional Base vs. Airflow Mode: This table returns the base proportional % fuel change. Proportional base rate table is the primary amount of fuel needed to drive the closed loop fuel control into oscillation. Proportional fuel acts like an on/off switch to keep the fuel moving around the current O2 Rich/Lean vs. Mode table set point. The values on the Proportional Table add or subtract to the base fuel rate depending on the previous fuel condition (i.e. if rich then switch lean, if lean the switch rich). The amount of fuel to add or subtract increases with the airflow mode and should be based on injector size and % fuel switching needed."

I realize that this is the description of the proportional tab. What exactly should be taken into account based on "injector size"?

[WS6_LOU]

If throttle has to be adjusted out too far then there are two options:

1) Drill a 5/32" hole in the throttle plate, adjust the plate back until TPS is 0V, and redo TPS learn. Enlarge if needed based on IAC cold and hot start values.
2) Waller out the mounting bolt holes of the TPS sensor so it can be clocked to read 0V at closed throttle.

Having done method 2, if I had to do it again I'd go with method 1.

I think the first option is what I?m gonna do. The second option seems like it has very little room for error. I know the tb already has a factory hole so should I make that hole 5/32? or drill a separate hole in 5/32?? I?m assuming changing this will require a new RAF right? So I?ll skip it for now since I?m trying to finalize my move and won?t have time to redo it before I have to drive it 2 hours to the new house. Also, my super lean idle issue just won?t go away. I?ve kind of given up on it since it seems that once you start driving the issue goes away until you restart it again. Though after reading up a little bit, I?m starting to wonder if all these issues are caused by the increased tps voltage. Maybe it?s trying to reference different tables when it should only be picking from one. Idk just speculation I guess.