fully built 4.6 3 v procharger - trying to tune after moving from sct to hp tuners

[his name was frank]

Hey guys, im new to hptuners, i have some experience tuning, but mostly rom raider on my Subaru. I've got a 2008 Mustang with a billet block 4.6 3v with aluminum rods, very aggressive cams, D‑1SC procharger, 80lb injectors, ford racing throttle body, dual pump( on is a gt500 pump and one is a aeromotive after market). When i got the car it came with a SCT X3 with some tunes on it. i dont like sct as a company in general, and i couldn't modify the tune except what was on the device. so i went to hp tuners and im loving it, the only problem is my idling. (and it almost undriveable unless your in the floor, throttle response is junk as well) i just cant get it dialed in. when it cold starts it revs to 2400ish for about 15 secs, and then it comes down close to my desired idle speed, except it will keep fluctuating (almost revving by itself from 900rpm to 2100rpm) until it warms up (+160 degrees). And unless you are pressing the throttle it is stupid lean, like mid to high 20's. if you are on the throttle (doesn't matter how much throttle) they are ok at 11's and 12's (11.2 at WOT). i bought a new afr gauge and wideband just to be sure, and it is installed in the pipe at the correct angle and all that. i Attached my log and tune from when im at now, the log isn't long but the insane lean scares me....brand new ht0 plugs gapped to .32. New MSD Coil Packs, adjustable FPR, long tube headers with full 3in straight pipe all the way back. Procharger makes about 12lbs boost max. im on 93 octane. Any help or even pointing me in the right direction would be awesome. Thanks!
https://photos.app.goo.gl/wugUF7rkxN6Xqa9L8 --photos of the beast

[B E N]

Try this thread to get you going: https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...mp-WOT-Surging

You will have to dig some on cam tuning.

[Thatwhite5.0]

Lower your idle airflow in park neutral. It'll allow more air to be pumped in than it needs if you tell it to.
You can disable torque intervention and both IPC Rom switches in monitoring.

[his name was frank]

thanks for the info Ben, but it seems like that thread is more directed towards WOT? My issue is literally only at idle and low rpm (under 2000) while driving. I did read it over a bit just for the education (I need all I can get), like I said this is my first HPT experience, and also my first Modular ford experience in regards to tuning lol. It doesn't help much that I dont know much about the engine internals as far specs go, just what the half-a**ed build sheet from a shop in MA says that came with the car. Also the intake is not stock, from what I can tell its a C & L intake, the build sheet just said race cams lol. You can tell when it runs the cams are VERY aggressive. Thanks for the reply 5.0. ive gotten it settled alot more than before playing with the idle airflow and a little bit of adjustments to the ve table (very little as im still learning exactly how this table works), its only showing 15's at idle now instead of 25+'s and doesn't act like it wants to die as bad, the rpm fluctuation is alot less as well. WOT is still fine (I suspect this is because it was dyno tuned before I got it), I will try to adjust those settings and upload my new idle log today since im staying home for the 4th anyways. Thanks guys. Happy 4th!

[Bill88stang]

Yea need to know what cams are in there it would be a help

[his name was frank]

Best i can guess they are crower cams, found some stickers in the trunk. So I couldn't do the log until morning, the exhaust is Obnoxious to say the least and my neighbors already hate the car (Despite me driving slower than the 80 yr olds around the neighborhood), so i dont run it late unless im coming back from a meet or something. Dont get me wrong it sounds heavenly, especially when its idling correctly, the high duration cam idle is prob the most impressive ive heard from a ford v8. hey 5.0 is this the table you are referring to? Not the transmission based setpoint i assume? here is the updated tune i finally got to run decent but still lean as hell at idle. Thanks for all the help guys, id like to rip past the 700hp they made on the dyno before I bought the car although i may need a better procharger, they 17lbs at 690whp, which from what i understand it is about max for a D‑1SC....screenshot.jpg

[Thatwhite5.0]

That's idle airflow. Transmission set point is idle RPM. Decrease, increase, whatever the car needs but definitely lower 1000+ rpm but .2, 1250 rpm by maybe .4
Your engine displacement is for like a 2.5L. Not sure why it's like that but it should read 704mg.

[his name was frank]

i just pulled the tune that was on there (SCT tune with a X3)when i went to HPT. Been working off of that since. at this point i just want to get it running correctly so i know all the mechanical parts ive replaced are in working order and then i was thinkin i would start from a stock 4.6 tune and build it. im about to try the changes you suggested, ill log and post it. Tell me, does this look right in general for r80lbs injectors? i for one was going to change the pw to .8, and i already changed the pressure drop reference to 45 instead of 39 which is where it was at. I have the FPR set at 45lbs and it has a boost/manifold line hooked up to it. 565.jpgi was also thinking 45lbs on the FPR might be to little for this setup?

[his name was frank]

So here are the most recent logs, when it is in OL AFR's on the wideband are 24-27! In CL AFR's are 14-16's, Idle only bounces before 130 degrees ECT. after that the idle smooths out to the amazing cam idle i love. Fuel Trims in CL stay pinned at 66.4%. im Kinda unsure what table to start with.... Again if im on the throttle afrs look great, even a little fat (10.5-11.5ish) its only while idling that there is issues, im too nervous to test drive it with seeing the 20's. Couple things i noticed and you guys tell me if im looking at the wrong stuff, but i noticed that the injector pw is 1.1's? is that would i should set it at in Editor? Also when the RPMs fluctuate by themselves the rpm ctrl says lockout? Also when it starts fluctuating the Fuel Pump Duty pings at 75% and occasionally dips very low, at the same time the timing locks at 12 degrees which is what my "spark idle min" is set at. And Finally the Fuel pump voltage....wtf is up with that? it says fuel pump base voltage avg 5.0+ volts and actual goes as low as .30? is this just different reading formats or should i start looking into the dual pump wiring, i know that the aftermarket Aeromotive fuel pump has a voltage booster wired into it, ill upload a pic in a bit. Any ideas id appreciate guys thank you!!

[Thatwhite5.0]

There's not an really an in general way to see 80lb injectors in the tune. Do you know what kind of injectors are installed? What brand?
Leave pressure drop ref stock. Find the right calibration for your injectors.

https://performanceparts.ford.com/pa...-9593-lu80.pdf

[his name was frank]

ok so I pulled the god damn injectors just to find out. Im about to do the same with the engine...if it didn't have only 6500k on a $8,000 build I would. a bit more injector than I thought, so here they are, FIC's... I was told by the previous owner (grain of salt I know but he was right about all the other parts so far), that the engine was built to make 1000hp, that was his goal, so im assuming they are atleast 160lbs. I cant find a part number, and its weird they are blue body with orange rings, on the website the only orange ring injectors for the gt500 have a black body. (he used ALOT of GT500 Parts). also the found out the intake is a C&L, which is out of business, having trouble trying to find the volume of the intake as well. ill keep the pressure reference stock for now. im just trying to decide which injector data and intake volume to enter so I dont have to keep tuning in the dark, I just got back from a weekend with the family so im gonna hit this thing hard all week, just need more information lol. Idle smooths out once it warms up (150F+) but it still sits on 15-16 AFR with wacky STFT's and when the idle drops randomly or when its warming up the wideband shows 20's+. im assuming I need to command more fuel. FPR is set at 43psi, also has a reference line for manifold, boost & FP Gauges ect. I really appreciate the advice pal. im glad I went HPT Most mustang forums are insulting to say the least lol. Injector Link: https://fuelinjectorclinic.com/Ford/GT500/IS404-1650H i inserted the data sheet for the injector calibration as well, i also attached my most current tune after inputting the injector data and a cpl other adjustments i made

[B E N]

thanks for the info Ben, but it seems like that thread is more directed towards WOT?

Not quite. Things like driver demand, fuel injector data, spark, torque tables and most especially load with failed MAF (LWFM) have to be dialed in for every throttle/load position. They are what makes the car drive around at low inputs. There is so much information packed in that thread that I reread it every time i start a tune after taking a break, re read it as you progress... you will keep finding stuff. Robcat and Murfie are really smart on these cars.

You have to have the car mechanically sound to tune properly. Do a few logs with fuel pressure turned on to make sure your pump is behaving properly, make sure you don't have vacuum leaks etc. A tiny vacuum leak will make you chase your tail for days on the tune, triple check it...

Setup histograms to give you the outputs you need, and start driving around, try to fill in every block of the histogram, make the changes, drive some more (start using filters as you get the tune closer). I use a 55mph road that is nearby, has next to no traffic and no people around to hear the car (mufflers are good, pickup a set of stockers if you can find them cheaply, they are a half hour install). I will ease into first then start working through load areas in second or third, 55mph is really enough to do most everything. Once you get the low/medium throttle settings setup you can use highway on ramps to do the WOT stuff, you will have a feel for what you need to do to get the histograms to fill at this point and can focus on driving the car.

The method is down and dirty but should get you something driveable that you can perfect over time. It took me a long time to do my first tune. I kept searching for information and getting lost in the weeds. The truth of it is: a spanish oak system is not that complicated, it doesn't need a million modifications to get it running well, and driving smoothly. You just have to know which parameters actually need to be changed and that is what takes a long time to figure out. No one was really forthcoming with that, or maybe it just didn't occur to them.

[his name was frank]

I will definitely re-read it then, thanks ben. so where im at now is ive actually got it running reasonably well, only problem, its still lean as hell, like 18-20... But i was thinking about it and wouldn't it be backfiring, missing or showing some other sign of lean conditions if it was really that lean? again at WOT, or even 25% and up its running great numbers, even a little rich, just idle, i did smooth out the idle with dashpot adjustments and very, very minor torque management adjustments, but the spark goes nuts when the idle does fluctuate and im assuming if it is lean it is because my airflow values are incorrect? ive attached my most recent tune as well for any of you tuning gods that might be bored unfortunately the log didn't save before my laptop died on me. i am ordering the pro-link + cable tomorrow so i can log my AEM Gauge directly into the scanner also. Thanks Guys. im about to loose my mind missing all these car meets!

[B E N]

Cams can cause idle readings to look lean, the overlap at idle lets fresh air/fuel go straight through the intake into the exhaust. If it has a lopey sound to it chances are the cams are causing false readings. If it goes away just off idle and is fine at loaded cruise my guess would be its the cams. If it idles fine I wouldn't worry about the AFR at idle, chances are good you won't hurt anything unless it is really rich.

[his name was frank]

Ok thats makes sense, the only idle setting left of any concern is that when the idle comes down (at stop lights and/or while idling in neutral) it comes way way down and wants to die and sometimes it does. Is this dashpot decay parameters that affect it? Throttle response also seems a bit laggy. As far as spark is concerned, any number i put in the min idle spark is where it ends up, if i put 12 degrees it stays at 12 during idle, if i put -3 it will sit there. Most of my adders are zeroed, with the aggressive cams should i have my spark up a ways? Even at idle? Im also going to zero out the spark emissions adders table, i have no cats anyways. Again i have limited experience and its mostly with Hondas using hondata and Subaru's using rom raider so sorry for the noob questions...

[Thatwhite5.0]

Your idle spark is at 8*. That could be a cause. Post a log of it. Set idle spark around 18 or 20*

[his name was frank]

Thanks I will try that tonight, by the way there is a MAF sensor from sct installed and I'm wondering if it's bad, no matter the airflow, I never see over 2.6volts, no code or mil but i haven't checked to see if reporting MAF voltage code is disabled or not....isn't the range supposed to be up to 5volts? It's a BA5000. Also the previous owner has it installed right at the 90 degree bend before the intercooler, there is a plate at the spot by the TB. Which one would give me a more accurate reading? I've put them further down the intake on previous builds myself but that was with 5+ inches of straight pipe on either side of the sensor....

[B E N]

Look at your logs, you should be plotting mass airflow volts and RPM. Put them both in the same chart VS time and see if they rise together. If the maf is flat lining and the RPM is not then the sensor could be bad. It is possible depending on the size of your MAF tube that 2.6 volts is the maximum required for your airflow.

[his name was frank]

thanks for the info ben. they definitely rise together, i tried the oem ford Maf and the car smoked like crazy, so i put the SCT MAF back in, anyways here is my most recent log (SCT MAF), i believe i named it appropriately. Obviously something is jacked up. STFT is ridiculous. btw this all started when i changed the plugs... i replaced them with the same ones that were in it. Auto lite HT0 gapped at .28 just like the ones that were in it. i checked them yesterday to see what showed and they were not bad, a little bit wet, but all the same more or less. Oh little side note, the sct maf is def a original from back in the day, "the part#", the Word "SCT", and what looks like a lot number are all laser etched into the MAF...... Also some things are scratched out also....fake maybe? Oh and i set my idle spark higher than last time as well. Thanks again guys, i hope i can figure this out in time for the cruise for cancer. im about two minutes away from calling the only tuner in town who has done modular V8s (and he hasn't done many) and have him figure it out, i dont normally give up but this car is testing my patience.

[B E N]

I wonder if that sensor is calibrated differently than stock, or just gone bad.

As a test:
Stick the stock maf in the housing.

Do the math to figure out the area of the two housings (the stock housing, and the one you want to use), divide the big housing area by the little one. It should give you a 1.xx number.

Grab a stock MAF airflow vs voltage table and multiply it by that 1.xx number.

Try running the car on that table with the OE sensor and see how it does. If it's improved fine tune the stock maf. I think most people just use the factory sensor in a larger housing (I do anyway).

STFT+LTFT is the number used for dialing in the MAF during tuning. maf error.png