Early 5.7 MBT spark

[TerrysTrans]

I've seen it kind of hidden in a few threads, but I just wanted to make sure before I possibly grenade my engine. I had my supercharged 5.7 remote tuned long ago, felt it always had a lot left on the table. Noticed on datalog once in boost the timing doesn't change. I then noticed the WOT spark table was thoroughly written, with scales for boost ranges on the axis for pressure ratio edited, but the MBT tables were not as thoroughly edited, and once I'm into boost range, my timing sits at the 1.0 ratio (MBT spark tables limit) spark range. Should I just copy the data from the WOT spark table to the MBT table, including axis data?

[LilSick]

fuck no

no copy and paste entire table!

its boosted - small change, log, repeat

lemme guess...

its still on pump gas

right?

[TerrysTrans]

That's not what I'm asking. Both the PT and WOT spark tables have been tuned, I'm not looking to add timing or pull timing. Their scale of timing on PRatio goes up to 1.6 (Roughly 10 Psi - which I don't believe the tables have from the factory). The MBT table has not received the same treatment as the other two tables, topping out at the stock 1.0. This is on a centrifugal supercharger, so I would look for timing to change as boost builds. When datalogging, it appears the timing hits the MBT tables spark limit set at 1.0 and hold that timing even as the boost climbs under WOT. So maybe I need a more thorough understanding of why the ecu would not reference the WOT spark table under WOT conditions, which when compared to the original file received a larger overhaul, and be limited by the MBT table.

[LilSick]

"i felt it always had a lot left on the table"

"I'm not looking to add timing or pull timing"

what are you wanting to do?

[TerrysTrans]

Have a more complete segment of tuning? If the tune was intended to have timing change with boost under WOT, as I would understand it should as boost changes, I would prefer it does. Oversights can happen in tunes, so I would like to know why one table would be referenced as opposed to the other. I was going off of other posts in the forum:

https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...fter-VE-Tables

https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...ions-on-tuning

[rays04gtx]

What Year ? post the tune, We always match our MBT max to our WOT table.

[LilSick]

it is boosted

his stock MBT numbers should be larger than his modded WOT table

right???

i might be wrong about this but i dont think it matters (the axis on his MBT table)

[LilSick]

[QUOTE=rays04gtx;737539
We always match our MBT max to our WOT table.

[/QUOTE]
huh

[rays04gtx]

huh

MBT table and PT tables have the same Colum & Row values, and same cell values, in this tune MBT table and PT tables are identical , WOT table is a straight 16*(which is what the max MBT table is set at) from lowest convertor stall point to max RPM which is the same on all tables that have an RPM Colum table.

this 06 Maggy is a stock 5.7 SBE with 6.1 heads Procharger 12lbs max boost, 93 OCT since late 2015, Best run to date 10.10@4200lbs build has 55k miles on it... and has wrecked 3 NAG1s and a 4l80E , now running Cope Racing 46RH.

[TerrysTrans]

For reference this vehicle was tuned for boost years ago, remotely. Since then as it received modifications the tune was tweaked for little things. Now it's been converted to a tr6060 manual. Still runs strong but needs more spark rewriting to drive smoothly (has some dead spots down low making it tough to drive) which is when I noticed the MBT tables lack of scale. I'd like to get everything on the same page before I go in tweaking it more. Tune file attached. 2005 Dodge Magnum 5.7 with a Torqstorm Centrifugal w/custom cam for near stock idle and for boost.

manualconversion57datacopyairflowPFzeroPartsparkchange2OGMBTSPARKTMupdateNORUMBLE.hpt

edit: i was wrong, PT scale and MBT scale are the same but WOT scale has been edited.

[TerrysTrans]

No knock or timing being pulled on the last WOT run I recorded IIRC. Unfortunately I just had rotator cuff surgery so I'm not driving the freshly converted to manual vehicle. I'll see if I can find an old datalog because I've left the timing tables alone.

[TerrysTrans]

(deleted post because I uploaded the wrong log like an idiot)

[TerrysTrans]

You need to log spark modifiers like IAT and ECT spark (oops, you are logging IAT adv). That's most likely where your spark is being pulled from what I can see. Not sure if you can log IAT retard and if it's separate in this OS.

I also see some random knock at high loads and low rpm and medium rpm and moderate loads. Your spark tables need some work. See attached image. Nothing terribly dangerous, but it needs to be fixed.

But, and I know you don't want to hear this, your bank 2 fuel trims are nearing 30%, bank 1 is also bad but not quite as bad. You need to start from scratch and get your injector data and VE table straightened out.

Attachment 134241

OH dear lord I am a moron. Wrong log uploaded. Looking at the header.... its from a friend's challenger. Removing file. Looking for a better log. SO Sorry!!!!

[TerrysTrans]

this is an old log, the car has since undergone a few minor tune changes (throttle body, better injector data, and VE tables mainly) and a few more upgrades (bigger IC, bigger TB, manual conversion..) but the spark tables didn't get changed and in THIS tune I can see again as it goes into WOT (late in the log, sorry its a long log, I hadn't done WOT tuning beyond the initial road remote tune) the timing lines up with the MBT table, not the WOT table. Why would the PCM reference MBT, out of the range the table is set for, under WOT conditions and not the WOT table? I understand this is a safe tune and safe timing, which is fine - I'm not necessarily trying to crank up power, but if the WOT table was tuned for boost ranges and the MBT table wasn't, I'd think I'd prefer to reference the WOT table. Trying to learn more through tuning and monitoring my own vehicle.

21-09-07 19-10-43.hpl

[LilSick]

blower and pump gas and no knock sensor voltage logged?

interesting choice of parameters

i would have that shit (Kv) at the top of my list : )

it pulled timing 5 min 17 seconds in for some reason

[TerrysTrans]

It looks like timing got pulled right on lift throttle during a very mild pull. There used to be a rumble tune block that had negative timing on lift throttle, I'd chalk it more up to false knock or the rumble block which has long since been removed because it wasn't under load or WOT, and any other time it crossed that block there was no timing pull.

[rays04gtx]

blower and pump gas and no knock sensor voltage logged?

interesting choice of parameters

i would have that shit (Kv) at the top of my list : )

it pulled timing 5 min 17 seconds in for some reason

It hung too long in gear,

[rays04gtx]

Too much timing ,

Your Log with the correct map values, (based on your WOT table)

Tune needs help.

[Josue Galban]

it is boosted

his stock MBT numbers should be larger than his modded WOT table

right???

i might be wrong about this but i dont think it matters (the axis on his MBT table)

yesssss, your MBT table must be higher than or on par with your wot table

[LilSick]

which his are...

he is worried that the mbt table scaling has not been modified to coincide with his higher manifold pressure (like the wot table has)

that should not make any difference, should it?