Early 5.7 MBT spark

[TerrysTrans]

Too much timing ,

Your Log with the correct map values, (based on your WOT table)

Tune needs help.

Which is what I'm trying to learn before changing my timing. Do I need to change the WOT table or MBT table, because even though it's in WOT, it seems to use timing from MBT.

[rays04gtx]

1st in the log 21-09-07 19-10-43, you only go onto the WOT once and that's at 07:07:39.955.
2nd the attached tune is your posted tune with PT/MBT and WOT with the Colum and row axis values "corrected", and tables modded slightly, Ve table and PE tables have been correted to needed Pratio scale.
all changes are listed in Notes.
compare to your current tune.

Since your maggy is swapped to manual trans, once you get settled in on some corrections, you'll find that you can add some more timing then most people will advise, the T56(tr6060) trans is one of the more efficient trans out there, gets even better with one piece counter shaft or 5/6 delete.
And since your Pre Gpec there's none of the hidden OS limits

[LilSick]

*Internet tune for injector data
*ETC Airflow CHANGES x1.1289 for larger TB
*Copied data into Small Range/Large Range
*VE tables adjusted from LTFT
*FDCM use Trans FSO disable
*VE tables adjusted from STFTx2
*VE tables updated with new IC x2
*Smoothed TB Large Range - copied data to ETC Airflow
*Dynamic Airflow Manifold Volume = 13.52
*MAP - PRatio Max/PRatio Max turbo = 2
*VE monitor LTFT+STFT with relocated IAT sensor x2
*CORRECTED Throttle Body Model for correct volume of cylinder math on Throttle Body, CORRECTED copy data on small range and large range
*Raised 3.9V ETC TB AF to continue curve
*Raised WOT Pedal Threshold to 3.1961v
*Reduced Pedal Characteristic WOT Delay to 0
*Inj PW vs Fuel Mass and Fuel Mass vs Inj PW (inv) datalog and updated
*Inj PW min = .152 (previously .200)
*Startup Inj PW scalar = 3.001 (previously 3.675)

corrected TB maths in all tables (reduced 0.00v value)
reset desired startup airflow

*(1.10 ratio and 3728rpm to max) x1.12 to richen FA Power Enrich PRatio Based
*trans max allowable torque vs gear set 1st and 2nd = 3687.81

*Transmission max engine torque limit 443 increased 475
*Transmission Allowed Upshift Torque Reduction 40% decreased. 30%
*Autostick Auto Upshift disabled

updated Inj PW tables, added 10% to VE table to bring measured AFR to commanded AFR (according to PE table)

re-corrected inj PW/FM tables, datalog tweak and smooth to VE tables

updated rev limited in Park/Nuetral to 6200rpm

disabled following codes from CEL:
P0850, P0717, P0657, U0103


minimum spark startup +3 deg to all table up to 2.2 sec

measured and set .0v-.9v from datalog in airflow/sm range/lg range

Airflow > Desired Airflow Minimum x1.3

**REF 10 Chall 5.7 Manual
copied: Trans based setpoint (all)
copied: idle adders
copied Airflow> Idle torque spark (all)

Desired Throttle Pedal Follower set 1:1
Pedal Follower Pedal Thresh = 0
Pedal Follower Percent Airflow = 0

Part throttle spark table block 45-105, 416rpm-800rpm per Andrew advice

Transmission > Torque Management > Torque Limit > Max engine set to max

RPM > Rolling Moving Idle +50RPM@2mph

removed rumble block in PT spark, MBT spark, corrected lower left timing


GS Torque Reduction to 0
Disabled Upshift/Downshift Torque reduction

*VE tuning/Injector tuning x2

restored stock MBT spark table

disabled all torque management
copied data from torque adapts Manual 09 challenger


7860 Aa.1(1)
PT spark & MBT tables
MAP values Matched,
Copied and pasted Negitive values from Spark retard Graph from Log 21-09-07 19-10-43 then multied table by .85 , smothed table till end.
WOT table, same procedure as Pt/MBT tables.

VE and PE tables changed Pratio to max 2 then intropolated between .2&2.0

i did not include any of the changes you suggested, only the changes you made ray, but looks like you went thru it with a fine tooth comb!

super nice of you

[rays04gtx]

That's not what I'm asking. Both the PT and WOT spark tables have been tuned, I'm not looking to add timing or pull timing. Their scale of timing on PRatio goes up to 1.6 (Roughly 10 Psi - which I don't believe the tables have from the factory). The MBT table has not received the same treatment as the other two tables, topping out at the stock 1.0. This is on a centrifugal supercharger, so I would look for timing to change as boost builds. When datalogging, it appears the timing hits the MBT tables spark limit set at 1.0 and hold that timing even as the boost climbs under WOT. So maybe I need a more thorough understanding of why the ecu would not reference the WOT spark table under WOT conditions, which when compared to the original file received a larger overhaul, and be limited by the MBT table.

I didn't see this , my bad.

1st , all three of these tables need to be "aligned" Part throttle(table 44628) MBT (Table 44673) and Min spark base (table 44679).
WOT table's Max cells (RPM and Air value, MAP in your case) need to match PT/MBT/MSB tables in order to work properly.....keep in mind the WHOLE package includes VE's(Table 44273/44274) Pe(table 34243) those RPM values should match PT/MBT/MSB tables for best results.

NGC3/NGC4 ECU's will not trip/use/look at/ have any idea what the WOT spark table is unless Engine>Torque Management>Throttle WOT is exceeded.....stock has a value of 3.745 (Table 44390) TPS Voltage Needs to exceed 3.745V in order for trip WOT spark table , unless you lower the value.

We have a few customer vehicles that never trip WOT spark table, all of the Road race/Hill Climb G3 hemis we've tuned run better using the PT table only.... we have those set at 5V
the WOT table is interesting, most start at 1/2 way point of the Air(aircharge or MAP) of the Part Throttle table, this was done so the ECU would have more information to use during WOT applications.

For are 100% drag cars , we start the WOT table 1000k RPMs below stall or 2000RPMs for the stick shift guys.....we have an low 8 sec Hellcat powered Foxbody (see attached) we start at 2240RPM and end at 7200.......and yes PT/MBT/MBS tables all end at 7200 RPMs on this car.

[LilSick]

What does a fox body weigh with a 6.2 and a glide or 400 or 4L80 or whatever ya are using?

[rays04gtx]

Drive to track Average weight 2825 lbs ,off trailer pure race effort 2750lbs, runs a Proflite 727. Drips in to high 7s now, Glide had better MPH but overall ET is better with the 727. 8.10 was best Glide ET.

[rockystock]

Which is what I'm trying to learn before changing my timing. Do I need to change the WOT table or MBT table, because even though it's in WOT, it seems to use timing from MBT.

I suspect the remote tuner(s) attempted to give you a safe starting point by dropping your MBT spark table from 80kpa and above. Really the only way to get an accurately tuned MBT table is to run a very healthy, clean setup with high octane fuel (maybe 108 or above) on a "sensitive load-bearing dyno" https://www.hpacademy.com/courses/ro...ing-mbt-tuning Just about every other approach is more or less guesswork.

I think what you have currently is a bit of a hack - the knock sensors were desensitized, but the spark tables were not correctly re-scaled to keep you safe. I'd recommend taking your vehicle to a good professional that knows what they're doing and can tune your car correctly. You're really not going to be able to safely optimize it any other way. Try to find a shop that knows Mopar, that can prove to you that they can tune MBT the right way. Let us know if you find one lol.

[TerrysTrans]

So much to unpack, thank you very much. I will be away from the computer that has the tunes and logs until tomorrow, but I'll definitely be going back through all the data I was given. Makes sense that MBT is used until the pedal WOT threshold is crossed. I had actually had a date set to go to a dyno and tuning shop that came highly recommended, and tbh I wanted to make sure I understood the tables so I could see and understand what got changed and could tweak if further if I needed after.. but I missed that for the same reason the only semi recent WOT log I could find is a year old and one short pull I'm in a sling for 6 months (great time to finish a manual swap huh?) And everything else has just been driveability tuning. Wish I could have given a better WOT file post manual conversion.

[LilSick]

i do not believe that it does...

i think it uses part throttle when yer at part throttle and wot when yer at wot and mbt is what timing would be in a perfect world

or course there is also the spark t stat and who knows... there may be other tables that i do not even know about

my mbt and my part throttle are identical. i took it (mbt) and copied it over to PT. My car is not supercharged and i log knock voltage - both banks - always

[rockystock]

The PCM uses the MBT as a maximum for all conditions - part throttle, WOT, startup, WOT thermal, you name it. The other spark tables should never command something greater than MBT, but if they are then yes you will see the MBT value being applied.

As long as the MBT table is tuned correctly, you should rarely if ever actually see MBT timing applied when running pump gas on the street, because the engine will almost certainly be knock limited. That's why the other spark tables are there - to give an optimal spark timing that will not cause preignition/knock.

Sure, you can run the MBT values in your other tables if the engine is spotless inside, you only run racing fuel, or the MBT values were not correct (I.e., too low) to begin with. Otherwise, you're probably asking for trouble, especially with desensitized knock sensors.

Knock voltage won't help too much. The sampling rate is too low to reliably catch a knock event. There are some standalone knock monitoring tools out there with an audio feed; but they're $$$$ and may require a laptop several steps above what's needed for HPT.

[rays04gtx]

Purple Ram did a video on working this tune.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdZUUokEvD8

"The PCM uses the MBT as a maximum for all conditions" Actually it does not, MBT table is the reference point as Max value for PT table , The WOT table will exceed MBT values as long as the knock sensors limits are not exceeded

[rockystock]

Purple Ram did a video on working this tune.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdZUUokEvD8

"The PCM uses the MBT as a maximum for all conditions" Actually it does not, MBT table is the reference point as Max value for PT table , The WOT table will exceed MBT values as long as the knock sensors limits are not exceeded

Good to know. I will not be verifying that haha.

[LilSick]

that is ok

i will : )

took me 2 mins to write the tune

mbt test pt.pngmbt test mbt.pngmbt test wot.png

will write calibration and log a putt this afternoon

[rays04gtx]

Good to know. I will not be verifying that haha.

It's ok , I don't expect you to, but I will .

These two attachments are from this OP's Tune and Log posted, the extra few Degrees come from table 45542 which is labeled wrong.

[LilSick]

huh? what table is that? the numbers are too close at 50 map 1500 table to table to prove anything

here... you seen the tune i made ^^^

PT 20
wot 10
mbt 0

here is the log:

car has no spark t stat but i did not make wot thermal 10 like wot. i think that is where the timing adjustment came from at 3 min 40 secs when i punched it

bottom line... part throttle seems like IT is labelled wrong and MBT IS PT???

[LilSick]

naw my bad, the wot woulda been zero like mbt but i didnt zero the min spark base for the test

mbt overrides pt and wot : )

the log proves it

mbt test min.png

*so as for the op and him not having map right on that table... yeah ya prolly needed to fix that rofl

[rockystock]

Yep, pretty easy to verify MBT as max timing limit. But at the same time, there are no hard and fast rules since tables can be labled wrong and FCA changes things sometimes without warning, especially when they go from NGC3, to 4 to GPEC, etc.

If anyone has a PCM that is not applying the MBT table(s) as THE ceiling, then they should be contacting HP Tuners help staff for some explanation.

MBT is by definition the highest possible torque for the given RPM and fuel-air charge, regardless of which mode the engine is running in. At a given operating condition, there is only one spark time that will achieve the maximum torque - too advanced and the chamber pressure peaks too soon; too late and the pressure peaks after the piston has already moved down past the ideal point for max torque. Either way, timing too high or too low will reduce torque.

[PurpleRam]

Yep, pretty easy to verify MBT as max timing limit. But at the same time, there are no hard and fast rules since tables can be labled wrong and FCA changes things sometimes without warning, especially when they go from NGC3, to 4 to GPEC, etc.

If anyone has a PCM that is not applying the MBT table(s) as THE ceiling, then they should be contacting HP Tuners help staff for some explanation.

MBT is by definition the highest possible torque for the given RPM and fuel-air charge, regardless of which mode the engine is running in. At a given operating condition, there is only one spark time that will achieve the maximum torque - too advanced and the chamber pressure peaks too soon; too late and the pressure peaks after the piston has already moved down past the ideal point for max torque. Either way, timing too high or too low will reduce torque.

By definition yes, by DCX no, what a lot of people do not get is DCX WRITTEN OS, airflow dictates all, if the spark is too low on WOT table but air and fuel is there to meet TQ request the the OS looks at spark inverse , checks limit of spark allowed on table and will raise spark above MBT table limit.Timing is all about making to most cylinder pressure at the least crank angle after TDC power stroke. We advance ?timing? to get past ignition delay, which is basically the time from initial spark to fully igniting the fuel mixture in the cylinder. There are 3 ?ratios? that the OS looks for, 1st is theoretical hp /TAF, 2nd is calculated hp/TAF 3rd is tq request/total ve averages theoretical hp/TAF, all 3 need to be within.30 of each other, when one is too low the is goes into a hissy fit and looks OUTSIDE of PT/WOT and a few other tables for its answer.

[rockystock]

By definition yes, by DCX no, what a lot of people do not get is DCX WRITTEN OS, airflow dictates all, if the spark is too low on WOT table but air and fuel is there to meet TQ request the the OS looks at spark inverse , checks limit of spark allowed on table and will raise spark above MBT table limit.Timing is all about making to most cylinder pressure at the least crank angle after TDC power stroke. We advance ?timing? to get past ignition delay, which is basically the time from initial spark to fully igniting the fuel mixture in the cylinder. There are 3 ?ratios? that the OS looks for, 1st is theoretical hp /TAF, 2nd is calculated hp/TAF 3rd is tq request/total ve averages theoretical hp/TAF, all 3 need to be within.30 of each other, when one is too low the is goes into a hissy fit and looks OUTSIDE of PT/WOT and a few other tables for its answer.

Spark Inverse - are you referring to the "Inv Efficiency" table under the Torque Model or Torque Management tab? (can't remember which tab at the moment). If so, that table is used to retard timing for torque management or other purposes, not to raise timing.

I'm curious as to where you learned the other items you mentioned. Is there a publication available out on the web?

[PurpleRam]

I'm curious as to where you learned the other items you mentioned. Is there a publication available out on the web?

3 of the 12 people who wrote the code for these OS systems