Start and Stall first time build: 2005 Twincharged Dodge Magnum

[Reignited]

Hi guys, I'm new to this platform and I've got a fairly unique build that I'm trying to get started that I'm hoping you will be able to give me some pointers on.

The build:
2005 Dodge Magnum with a 2015 Hemi 5.7 engine equipped with a 6.4 camshaft.
Has an Eaton M112 supercharger and a VS racing turbocharger
Hellcat injectors, Deatschwerks 400lph fuel pump with adjustable regulator fuel pressure is set to 58psi
Factory electronic throttle body, the bypass valve is hooked up and working on the supercharger
Not using the factory O2 sensors at all.
SRT caliber 3 bar MAP sensor
I'm at 4250ft elevation
I've got an AEM wideband with gauge, but I don't currently have it wired into the scanner for recording

The issue: The vehicle fires immediately, runs for about two seconds and then stalls. I've changed a bunch of different stuff but I'm basically fumbling around in the dark here, if you have any ideas I'd love to hear them. By looking at the logs it seems like the injectors get a big pulse on startup, but as soon as the vehicle fires they almost turn off completely, then right when the vehicle stalls they pulse again?

No matter what I change the vehicle does not seem to keep firing the injectors after startup. Occasionally if I disconnect the MAP sensor the vehicle will be able to keep itself running, but just barely.

Here is the current tune and log:
Magnum PI base start tune 8-6-23.hpt
start attempts 8-6-23.hpl

Any advice would be appreicated, even if just to tell me to do more research!

If you'd like to see the full build, check out the Poor Man's Hellcat playlist on my youtube channel:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCp-...vsrPLCZf9VtOrw

[rays04gtx]

"Not using the factory O2 sensors at all"
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I would change that 1st .

[B00STJUNKY]

Hi guys, I'm new to this platform and I've got a fairly unique build that I'm trying to get started that I'm hoping you will be able to give me some pointers on.

The build:
2005 Dodge Magnum with a 2015 Hemi 5.7 engine equipped with a 6.4 camshaft.
Has an Eaton M112 supercharger and a VS racing turbocharger
Hellcat injectors, Deatschwerks 400lph fuel pump with adjustable regulator fuel pressure is set to 58psi
Factory electronic throttle body, the bypass valve is hooked up and working on the supercharger
Not using the factory O2 sensors at all.
SRT caliber 3 bar MAP sensor
I'm at 4250ft elevation
I've got an AEM wideband with gauge, but I don't currently have it wired into the scanner for recording

The issue: The vehicle fires immediately, runs for about two seconds and then stalls. I've changed a bunch of different stuff but I'm basically fumbling around in the dark here, if you have any ideas I'd love to hear them. By looking at the logs it seems like the injectors get a big pulse on startup, but as soon as the vehicle fires they almost turn off completely, then right when the vehicle stalls they pulse again?

No matter what I change the vehicle does not seem to keep firing the injectors after startup. Occasionally if I disconnect the MAP sensor the vehicle will be able to keep itself running, but just barely.

Here is the current tune and log:
Magnum PI base start tune 8-6-23.hpt
start attempts 8-6-23.hpl

Any advice would be appreicated, even if just to tell me to do more research!

If you'd like to see the full build, check out the Poor Man's Hellcat playlist on my youtube channel:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCp-...vsrPLCZf9VtOrw

I'm a bit perplexed at the injector data. I initially thought you had copied/pasted or maybe even calculated injector data incorrectly from the Hellcat calibration. But after reviewing a few calibrations, I found you had essentially copied/pasted exactly what they hellcat calibration has in it, with the exception of the difference in the number of data points from your NGC3 PCM OS as compared to the extended range that the GPEC2A offers.

So, out of curiosity, I downloaded a Jeep Trackhawk calibration, and found the injector data in that calibration to be much closer to what I would expect to see from an injector that was run/tested at a consistent, static pressure. whereas the data for the hellcat calibration looks more like what you'd expect from variable fuel pressure, or more accurately, variable pressure differential across the injector tip vs feed orifice. Not saying that Mopar tried to bake injector pressure differential into the fuel mass vs pulse model. But looking at the slope, it is confusing to see how sharply it slopes when you normalize the data to mass per 1 millisecond of pulse across the range.

It's so different looking that I had to double check that they both use the same injector part number, and sure enough, they do.

The TrackHawk data has a much flatter slope across the range (with the exception of it being drastically different within the first 2 datapoints), and would ultimately end up delivering quite a bit more fuel in the low pulsewidth range as compared to the hellcat data. That sounds a bit like what you might need in your case, and should provide a much better starting point.

Hellcat-Injector-Data.JPG

Hellcat-Injector-Data-Graphs2.JPG

[Reignited]

"Not using the factory O2 sensors at all"
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I would change that 1st .

I was thinking about re-introducing the upstream O2's, the downstream is irrelevant since there are no cats on this vehicle. I fabricated the entire exhaust system/turbo manifolds from scratch so I never put a bung in either side for the 02 sensors because I was under the impression that running the vehicle solely in open loop the PCM would not be using any input from the 02 sensors, definitely let me know if I'm wrong in that assumption. As I mentioned the only 02 currently is a wideband that is about 24" into the downpipe. Adding additional bungs for the upstream 02's would be relatively simple so I might go that route anyway, since it would be nice to use closed loop at some point after the initial tuning is done.

I'm a bit perplexed at the injector data. I initially thought you had copied/pasted or maybe even calculated injector data incorrectly from the Hellcat calibration. But after reviewing a few calibrations, I found you had essentially copied/pasted exactly what they hellcat calibration has in it, with the exception of the difference in the number of data points from your NGC3 PCM OS as compared to the extended range that the GPEC2A offers.

So, out of curiosity, I downloaded a Jeep Trackhawk calibration, and found the injector data in that calibration to be much closer to what I would expect to see from an injector that was run/tested at a consistent, static pressure. whereas the data for the hellcat calibration looks more like what you'd expect from variable fuel pressure, or more accurately, variable pressure differential across the injector tip vs feed orifice. Not saying that Mopar tried to bake injector pressure differential into the fuel mass vs pulse model. But looking at the slope, it is confusing to see how sharply it slopes when you normalize the data to mass per 1 millisecond of pulse across the range.

It's so different looking that I had to double check that they both use the same injector part number, and sure enough, they do.

The TrackHawk data has a much flatter slope across the range (with the exception of it being drastically different within the first 2 datapoints), and would ultimately end up delivering quite a bit more fuel in the low pulsewidth range as compared to the hellcat data. That sounds a bit like what you might need in your case, and should provide a much better starting point.

Hellcat-Injector-Data.JPG

Hellcat-Injector-Data-Graphs2.JPG

Fascinating! And you are correct that's exactly what I did on the Hellcat injector data. Thank you for your help on that I really do appreciate it, I'll adjust the injector scaling and see what happens.

[PurpleRam]

You need the front if you are staying oem ecu, with out them the ecu thinks it’s super pig rich and goes in to a shut down mode

Been there pulled out a lot of hair over it.

[Reignited]

You need the front if you are staying oem ecu, with out them the ecu thinks it?s super pig rich and goes in to a shut down mode

Been there pulled out a lot of hair over it.

Very much appreicate the info, i'll get the front ones reinstalled pronto.

[Reignited]

Well unfortunately even with the rescaled injectors and the upstream O2 sensors reinstalled the problem remains, still starts and stalls. Here is the latest log if anyone is available to look at it.

Start attempts 8-13-23.hpl

[Reignited]

I just noticed while looking at the log that the VE percentage never moves from 15%, is this why my fuel injectors essentially shut off after startup? and if so, why is it reading this way?

forgot to add the latest tune:Magnum PI Trackhawk injector settings 8-8-23.hpt

[Reignited]

I hesitate to say it's fixed completely, but the VE percentage at 15% was apparently due to that being the minimum VE setting in the stock tune. I bumped that up to 55% and the vehicle runs now! Very excited now to actually start making some progress on the tune on this thing and I really appreciate everyone who chimed in so far!

[B00STJUNKY]

I hesitate to say it's fixed completely, but the VE percentage at 15% was apparently due to that being the minimum VE setting in the stock tune. I bumped that up to 55% and the vehicle runs now! Very excited now to actually start making some progress on the tune on this thing and I really appreciate everyone who chimed in so far!

That's very strange. I haven't been able to load your logs due to using older HP software, but I went ahead and installed the latest to take a look at what you were referring to. I can't say I've ever seen VE stuck at 15% on any platform before. I don't recall seeing a PID for Base Volumetric Efficiency in your log. Maybe try adding that and see how different the Base vs the Total VE end up logging as.

It's also maybe possible that you're logging the wrong Total VE PID. When you go into the scanner to take a log, go into your channel config and select the option at the top of the parameters window (where you're sifting through the available parameters) that specifies "show only supported parameters." Select that option and see if the Total VE PID logs any differently after doing that.

But look for any VE PIDs in the list that might give an indication of what is causing such a discrepancy between Base VE and Total VE. Because nowhere in your VE tables are you commanding anywhere near 15% base VE, so there has to be some sort of modifier taking control and bringing it down.

[Reignited]

That's very strange. I haven't been able to load your logs due to using older HP software, but I went ahead and installed the latest to take a look at what you were referring to. I can't say I've ever seen VE stuck at 15% on any platform before. I don't recall seeing a PID for Base Volumetric Efficiency in your log. Maybe try adding that and see how different the Base vs the Total VE end up logging as.

It's also maybe possible that you're logging the wrong Total VE PID. When you go into the scanner to take a log, go into your channel config and select the option at the top of the parameters window (where you're sifting through the available parameters) that specifies "show only supported parameters." Select that option and see if the Total VE PID logs any differently after doing that.

But look for any VE PIDs in the list that might give an indication of what is causing such a discrepancy between Base VE and Total VE. Because nowhere in your VE tables are you commanding anywhere near 15% base VE, so there has to be some sort of modifier taking control and bringing it down.

I have to agree with you that there's something here that I'm not seeing. Although I'm happy I was able to get it running by changing the minimum VE, I'd really like to know why that worked because as you mentioned nowhere in the VE table does it get that low. I'll look into the items you mentioned.

[Reignited]

Well you are correct, by upping the minimum VE all I was doing was keeping the engine running for a longer period of time, but once the startup enrichment drops off then the car doesn't have enough fuel to keep running for very long. I took another log while it was running with the base VE compared to the total VE and you can see that the total VE never varies from the minimum VE value in the tune, in this case I updated it to 45%. So clearly there's a setting I'm missing that is not allowing the vehicle to run using the VE table but is somehow stuck using only the minimum VE value. Thoughts?

base VE vs Actual VE 8-14-23.hpl

Current tune:

Magnum PI 125% VE 8-14-23.hpt

[PurpleRam]

Total ve and base ve NEVER separate during logs? ( I haven’t looked myself) , if so sounds like it’s stuck in open loop ,

[Reignited]

Total ve and base ve NEVER separate during logs? ( I haven?t looked myself) , if so sounds like it?s stuck in open loop ,

No, the vehicle stays completely stuck at whatever minimum VE value I have inputted in the tune. Essentially it'll kind of run with a base VE of 45 but while running it never moves from that value. I think Boost Junkie has it right that there's a modifier at play here that is changing whatever VE value it should be using down to the minimum VE.

I have an update though. When I wrote the initial tune I was trying to go by this thread:
https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...tarters-How-To

However, I must have screwed up one of the tables since I was doing everything at once. I went back to the stock magnum tune and basically just rescaled the injectors and map sensor and now the VE base and total are reading correctly and the vehicle idles properly now for the most part. Obviously I'll need to update the VE and spark tables before doing anything else. (I'm thinking I should have just started with that to begin with...) I'll just keep going with modifying this tune rather than using the original one since I'm still not sure what it was that I changed that caused it to revert to the minimum VE value.

[Bullet300]

Sent you a PM