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Thread: What is dynamic airflow

  1. #1
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    What is dynamic airflow

    Anything described as dynamic means it is varying; it is in motion; it is changing over time. In an engine with an ECU that does calculations periodically, you can technically only know the past. Every sensor measurement has some time delay, and the algorithms those sensors inform, even more delay. Dynamic airflow exploits this fact to provide a good balance between accuracy of measurement and time-sensitive response. Past measurements of key sensors are compared with their current measurements and a determination is made about the airflow dynamics: it is steady state or it is in a transient.

    A reference for this can be found here: https://patents.google.com/patent/US5423208A/en

    The key sensors here are the MAP and throttle position sensors. The sensor outputs are monitored over time and the differences between subsequent measurements are evaluated against a set of steady state entry/exit criteria. In short, if the change from the previous measurement to the current measurement is over some threshold, steady state exits. If the inverse is true for some amount of time, steady state is entered.

    dynamic.PNG

    Loosely translated, when describing the source of engine airflow, steady state can be interpreted as MAF. Transient is speed density/VVE/VE. The logic here is that dynamic definition from earlier...things are moving. And during a transition, a MAF is several feet away from where you REALLY want your airflow/airmass measured: in the cylinder. And airflow isn't super quick relative to how fast the ECU is performing these measurements and calculations - so the MAF reading no longer directly corresponds to the real airflow entering the engine. In this case, the MAF measurement is ignored and the speed density modeled airflow becomes the source of air measurement for calculation of fuel requirements. This is depicted in the above image between steps 118 and 128. So long as the criteria are met and the MAF ignored, the MAP sensor with its close proximity to the cylinder (and other speed density parameters) is utilized to calculate fuel delivery. In this transient condition, the time sensitive nature of the speed density model produces the best estimation of airflow relative to what is happening in reality. Conversely, in steady state where the MAP and TPS activity have settled, time sensitivity is not as important and airflow calculation returns to the MAF. Given the MAF's insensitivity of measurement to barometric pressure, temperature and exhaust pressure, it is considered the 'source of truth' by which the speed density/VE is corrected...so long as it remains in steady state.

    A reference for this particular VE correction algo is here: https://patents.google.com/patent/US5465617A/en

    VEcorr.PNG


    It should be clear here that dynamic airflow can and does produce airflow values from both the MAF and speed density model. Again, see steps 124-128 in the first image. Which one it matches will depend on those steady state criteria. It should also be obvious that, since you don't know the source of the airflow based on dynamic airflow alone (especially since the steady state enable criteria are not defined by HPT in any gen 4 ECU calibration I have seen...see gen3 for examples), it should not be used as reference for anything related to speed density/VE/VVE or MAF calibration. I have purposely excluded the prediction contribution of dynamic airflow from this overview - however that presents another reason that dynamic airflow, despite being the source of air mass for fuel calculations, does not represent either the speed density model or the MAF and thus should not be used to correct them.

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    Yeah I was wondering how you were attempting to explain this control scheme in the first paragraph while neglecting the derivative term, but you corrected the non-sequitur in the last paragraph.

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    Lots of things we can't see. 14,721 tables in this particular E38 calibration.

    Screenshot 2023-08-17 210449.png

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    Quote Originally Posted by smokeshow View Post
    Anything described as dynamic means it is varying; it is in motion; it is changing over time. In an engine with an ECU that does calculations periodically, you can technically only know the past. Every sensor measurement has some time delay, and the algorithms those sensors inform, even more delay. Dynamic airflow exploits this fact to provide a good balance between accuracy of measurement and time-sensitive response. Past measurements of key sensors are compared with their current measurements and a determination is made about the airflow dynamics: it is steady state or it is in a transient.

    A reference for this can be found here: https://patents.google.com/patent/US5423208A/en

    The key sensors here are the MAP and throttle position sensors. The sensor outputs are monitored over time and the differences between subsequent measurements are evaluated against a set of steady state entry/exit criteria. In short, if the change from the previous measurement to the current measurement is over some threshold, steady state exits. If the inverse is true for some amount of time, steady state is entered.

    dynamic.PNG

    Loosely translated, when describing the source of engine airflow, steady state can be interpreted as MAF. Transient is speed density/VVE/VE. The logic here is that dynamic definition from earlier...things are moving. And during a transition, a MAF is several feet away from where you REALLY want your airflow/airmass measured: in the cylinder. And airflow isn't super quick relative to how fast the ECU is performing these measurements and calculations - so the MAF reading no longer directly corresponds to the real airflow entering the engine. In this case, the MAF measurement is ignored and the speed density modeled airflow becomes the source of air measurement for calculation of fuel requirements. This is depicted in the above image between steps 118 and 128. So long as the criteria are met and the MAF ignored, the MAP sensor with its close proximity to the cylinder (and other speed density parameters) is utilized to calculate fuel delivery. In this transient condition, the time sensitive nature of the speed density model produces the best estimation of airflow relative to what is happening in reality. Conversely, in steady state where the MAP and TPS activity have settled, time sensitivity is not as important and airflow calculation returns to the MAF. Given the MAF's insensitivity of measurement to barometric pressure, temperature and exhaust pressure, it is considered the 'source of truth' by which the speed density/VE is corrected...so long as it remains in steady state.

    A reference for this particular VE correction algo is here: https://patents.google.com/patent/US5465617A/en

    VEcorr.PNG


    It should be clear here that dynamic airflow can and does produce airflow values from both the MAF and speed density model. Again, see steps 124-128 in the first image. Which one it matches will depend on those steady state criteria. It should also be obvious that, since you don't know the source of the airflow based on dynamic airflow alone (especially since the steady state enable criteria are not defined by HPT in any gen 4 ECU calibration I have seen...see gen3 for examples), it should not be used as reference for anything related to speed density/VE/VVE or MAF calibration. I have purposely excluded the prediction contribution of dynamic airflow from this overview - however that presents another reason that dynamic airflow, despite being the source of air mass for fuel calculations, does not represent either the speed density model or the MAF and thus should not be used to correct them.
    OK so we agree that Dynamic Airflow is ALWAYS being calculated 100% of the time from two different input sources.

    Now which one of them fancy patents (from 1995) shows what airflow model actually controls the injector pulse width?

    ETA: As you can see the first patent paper shows that "all road lead to Rome". Steps 118 through 136 shows that no matter what Kalman Filter/algorithm is used...it goes into creating the one single airflow to rule them all...Dynamic Airflow.
    Last edited by Cringer; 08-17-2023 at 03:50 PM. Reason: all road lead to Rome
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    Man...what is this world coming to? Even Dave Steck agrees with my point of view whether he knows it or not! You should be using dynamic air to tune your air flow models, both VVE and MAF at the same time. You just have to know how to use the math formulas to make it work.

    Quote Originally Posted by DSteck
    "Dynamic airflow is the number used no matter what mode you run (MAF only, SD, or hybrid)."
    https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...l=1#post267134

    Quote Originally Posted by DSteck
    "At the end of the day, dynamic airflow is what dictates fueling."
    https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...l=1#post267157
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    Lol. I don't think Dave will be disagreeing with me here...

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    Quote Originally Posted by smokeshow View Post
    Lol. I don't think Dave will be disagreeing with me here...
    Feel free to call him in to explain himself. However, he posted those comments in the Gen4 section and he is correct. Both the links to your patents were created initially in '93 and '94. Which would indicate they apply to Gen3. Surely in the decade or so between Gen3 and Gen4 GM would have made changes and improvements. It is clear the ECM's are much sophisticated between these two generations.

    You still haven't answered the main question: what airflow model actually controls the injector pulse width?
    A standard approach will give you standard results.

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    Quote Originally Posted by smokeshow View Post
    I have purposely excluded the prediction contribution of dynamic airflow from this overview - however that presents another reason that dynamic airflow, despite being the source of air mass for fuel calculations, does not represent either the speed density model or the MAF and thus should not be used to correct them.
    Dynamic

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    Indeed this does apply to gen3. I mentioned it in the original post.. Many algorithms are developed and patented decades before the hardware is available to implement it. Not uncommon at all. However 1995 is right at the time where the gen3 development would have been in high gear...

    Both. Airflow. Sources. Influence. Fueling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cringer View Post
    Feel free to call him in to explain himself. However, he posted those comments in the Gen4 section and he is correct. Both the links to your patents were created initially in '93 and '94. Which would indicate they apply to Gen3. Surely in the decade or so between Gen3 and Gen4 GM would have made changes and improvements. It is clear the ECM's are much sophisticated between these two generations.

    You still haven't answered the main question: what airflow model actually controls the injector pulse width?
    That's answered in the last half of the last sentence. If you're going to debate him don't play word games. Support your position with logic and facts.

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    All smokeshow is saying is why introduce the potential for error with another layer of abstraction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SiriusC1024 View Post
    That's answered in the last half of the last sentence. If you're going to debate him don't play word games. Support your position with logic and facts.
    Quote Originally Posted by SiriusC1024 View Post
    All smokeshow is saying is why introduce the potential for error with another layer of abstraction.
    I have supported my decision with logic, facts, and empirical evidence over the last several months. Prior to that I have tried using the standard tuning methods including GMVE and this is the best way I have found. It works amazingly well. If someone is dead set on not even trying it, then fine, I cannot help them. This is IMHO the first thread that smokeshow has actually provided any real information other than "here is the answer, trust me bro". In my logs, that I have uploaded on other threads, you can see even in steady state throttle Dynamic Air may mirror or match MAF, VVE, or go it's own direction. It is hard to argue with logs and results.

    When I struggled with GMVE and posted my formulas and logs I received no help or input other than its probably MAF reversion. Yet how in the heckin when using this dynamic air method do I not see all this false MAF reversion? Clearly, something isn't right.

    My whole point is that using dynamic air removes A LOT of layers of abstraction and makes it much simpler. If you go with GMVE, you are trying to predict or model what conclusion the ECM is going to reach. Why? Why not steal the ECM's answer and use dynamic air? Otherwise you are relying on stale sensor data and canbus delays and hoping your math is not omitting a billion other factors that are not exposed by HPT.

    I don't know what the hold up is or reluctancy to try this?

    From what I have seen in my logs, Dynamic Air is ALWAYS calculated regardless of steady state or transient conditions. It never drops to zero nor give off the wall wild results. And yes predicting transient conditions is hard —but what is easy —steady state conditions. And even in steady state conditions Dynamic Air is in fact being calculated.

    SiriusC1024, do you have anything to contribute to this? I have posted youtube videos, create scanner formulas, and a system to calibrate airflow models using software I have developed. And while I am not saying I am an expert and know everything, I am saying I have put a TON of information out there and 100% in effort all in attempt to make the tuning world a better place. I did not do it to start arguments or attack anyone. At this point I feel like my only recourse is to buy an E38 and reverse engineer it to illicit the source code. Even then...I am sure people will still disagree with whatever I find lol.

    My goal is to find the truth, whatever that my be. May guiding principles are:
    "I never learned anything from a man who agreed with me."
    "Try to to understand in what ways my argument is correct and incorrect, and in what ways is the person I am arguing with is correct and incorrect."

    I appreciate the discourse and sharing of knowledge. Whether Jake knows it or not, I do appreciate his viewpoint and information as it will have no other conclusion other than to uncover the truth (no matter how long it takes).
    Last edited by Cringer; 10-19-2023 at 10:38 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cringer View Post
    "Try to to understand in what ways your argument is correct and incorrect, and in what ways is the person you are arguing with is correct and incorrect."
    My contribution is helping you with that part.

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    How about this then. I caught up real quick on the issue between busy times here at work.

    Smokeshow is correct that VVE and MAF cannot be tuned simultaneously using dynair. You implicitly admit as much by stating that your method works only in steady state. During a transient the error between dynair and either MAF or VVE increases. Here's a good example of that provided by smokeshow:

    comparison.png

    On the other hand using dynair as the airflow predictor does have merits. Dynair is filtered data, and it is ultimately how fueling is defined. Transients are troublesome, especially when doing VVE tuning. Responsiveness depends on the system and the rate at which the model of that system can be updated. It's up to the tuner to define what can be thrown out as a result of a transient condition. Basically, the tuner defines the filter. If dynair is referenced then that is the filtered data exactly, which results in a better representation of actual running conditions.

    Both positions have their merits. Why not combine them? Do MAF and VVE separately, but reference dynair in each. The advantage would be accurated data due to isolating the models coupled with the filter used by the ECU to remove problematic situations such as MAF reversion. Your equations are found here:

    https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...-the-Same-Time

    Tune VVE and MAF using dynair as the basis for airflow, but do them separately.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SiriusC1024 View Post
    Dynair is filtered data, and it is ultimately how fueling is defined.
    BINGO!

    Another way to state that is "fuel trims are in direct response to DynAir and ONLY DynAir".
    MAF and VVE are inputs to DynAir but do NOT directly control injector pulse width. Thus fuel trims are not in direct response to either MAF or VVE.

    So now what? Log a few basic PIDs.
    -DynAir (g/s)
    -MAF (g/s)
    -VVE (g/s)
    -Fuel Trims (%)
    -RPM (for creating a 3D VVE chart)
    -MAP (for creating a 3D VVE chart)
    -MAF (Hz) (for creating a 2D chart)


    Example:
    -DynAir log shows [50 g/s]
    -Fuel trim log shows [2.3%]
    -Then we know the correct airflow (regardless of source...MAF or VVE or your grandma) is:
    [50 g/s] * [1.023%] = [51.15 g/s]
    [51.15 g/s] is now our benchmark. Our single source of truth by which we can see if MAF and VVE are measuring up.


    And here is how we do that:

    If MAF was reporting [40 g/s] at this Hz, then what do we need to multiply it by in order to get it up to the correct airflow?
    [40 g/s] * [1.27875%] = [51.15 g/s]
    Copy Paste Special [1.27875]

    If VVE was reporting [65 g/s] at this RPM:MAP, then we need to do in order to get it up to the correct airflow?
    [65 g/s] * [0.787%] = [51.15 g/s]
    Copy Paste Special [0.787]

    As you can see this is very simple. We are not relying on an external calculation like GMVE does. This technique only uses the data supplied by the ECM, it is basically "tuning itself" without the guess work of an external formula. This eliminates " layers of abstraction" and allows you to perfectly tune both MAF and VVE at the same time.

    So when you think about this:
    -I am saying to drive under steady state throttle.
    -This is essentially using MAF to tune VVE. However, as I have noted, DynAir can deviate from MAF from time to time, so MAF does not always control IPW.
    -I am just taking it one step further by using DynAir to back calculate MAF and VVE.
    A standard approach will give you standard results.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cringer View Post
    So when you think about this:
    -I am saying to drive under steady state throttle.
    -This is essentially using MAF to tune VVE. However, as I have noted, DynAir can deviate from MAF from time to time, so MAF does not always control IPW.
    -I am just taking it one step further by using DynAir to back calculate MAF and VVE.
    Agreed

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cringer View Post
    So when you think about this:
    -I am saying to drive under steady state throttle.
    -This is essentially using MAF to tune VVE. However, as I have noted, DynAir can deviate from MAF from time to time, so MAF does not always control IPW.
    -I am just taking it one step further by using DynAir to back calculate MAF and VVE.[/COLOR]
    When you think about it a little more...dynamic airflow at steady state should line up with the MAF. If it doesn't...either you're not in steady state or something is wrong. For dynamic air to deviate from MAF, you must be in a transient. And as we all know, feedback from the O2s during transients is data you filter out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SiriusC1024 View Post
    Thanks for digging that up lol. That's literally the image I had in mind to describe this. Picture is worth a thousand words.

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    Quote Originally Posted by smokeshow View Post
    Thanks for digging that up lol. That's literally the image I had in mind to describe this. Picture is worth a thousand words.
    And that picture is great since it also explains how I am using Dynamic Air as it lines up at steady state. I know the ECM wants to use Dynamic Air for dynamic situations, and as such you feel like this is the only applicable use for it. And I would agree with you IF when the engine returned to steady state and then DynAir dropped to zero. However, we know DynAir is always updated and maintained by the ECM under all running conditions.

    So just to be clear; I want to filter out transients. I am not proposing to use transient dynair as a tuning aid.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cringer View Post
    And I would agree with you IF when the engine returned to steady state and then DynAir dropped to zero.
    I'm unsure what or who you would be agreeing with from that statement. I've never said dynamic airflow becomes zero, and the patent docs sure didn't suggest that. Bit left field, that idea...

    If you want to use dynamic airflow at steady state, that's great...but its just MAF airflow. lol