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Thread: 2015 Ram 1500 no start when VVT enabled, disabled starts fine

  1. #1

    2015 Ram 1500 no start when VVT enabled, disabled starts fine

    So I have a 2011 Ram that the customer put a CompCams 201-303-17 (273/279 duration .596/.583 lift with the Comp Cams #5761 phase limiter. It came in supposedly with a stock tune but comparing it ro a stock tune the VVT was disabled. It idles decent and is down on power but it does run. I only enable the VVT and it cranks but doesn't run. I attached tunes and logs of each tune. I've tuned lots of GM and fords but this is the first Dodge I've played with. It just sems strange that turning on and off the VVT would result in a no start. Any insight would be helpful

    startVVT.hpl startNoVVT2.hpl newread.hpt newreadVVTtest.hpt
    Last edited by Wayne Presley; 09-18-2023 at 10:43 AM.

  2. #2
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    Where are you enabling/disabling VVT? Some of your VVT settings appear to be the same to me in both tunes you attached, newread.hpt and newreadVVT.hpt. Be sure to go to the Airflow>Variable Camshaft tab and enable exhaust cam 1 phaser in addition to whatever else you had adjusted. Leave the other 3 disabled. (Exhaust cam 1 phaser , Intake cam 1 phaser, and Intake cam 2 phaser)
    2016 Ram CCSB Forged NA 396ci Stroker
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    3800 stall/Det Tru-Trac/410 Gears

  3. #3
    The only difference between the 2 tunes is airflow>variable camshaft> exhaust phaser 1 enable or disable. The newreadVVTtest file did have it enabled but I turned it back off to see if it would run (which it did). here is the correct file newreadVVTtest2.hpt


    2015 ram with LT headers, comp cam listed above with the Comp 14? phase limiter

    SprayCam,

    I read some of your posts prior to posting this. I downloaded 2 of your file and compared them to stock file from the repository seeing where the changes were made




    Here is another posters suggestion about how to handle the cam, what do you think.

    "Disable VVT
    Add 10% to startup airflow
    Cut VE by 5% in idle area
    Flatline first 4 columns of PT Base timing to 14*
    Set any negative values in Min Spark timing to +5*
    Set Torque Delta and Torque Delta Faults to max
    Max out P2174, P2172, P2173, P2175 fault values.
    Set FA ratio to 12.0 AFR to start

    If no start, set Temporarily the 60 count and above Startup Airflow Mult to 4.0, log airflow after startup, once established the proper airflow at fire up, return this table to stock and fix your startup airflow to be closer to whats logged.

    Monitor fuel trims, adjust VE."
    Last edited by Wayne Presley; 09-01-2023 at 04:44 PM.

  4. #4

  5. #5
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    Ok. Now you'll likely get a lot of different opinions on how to go about this but as far as I am concerned, 1/2 to 2/3 of that list is either not really necessary, or could be incorrect, depending on your preferences for idle, start-up, ect. For example, would you be looking for some cam chop at idle in park, or even when stationary in drive? If not, then sure, flatline first 4 columns to I'd say 14 from about the 400-450 air charge row and above only. Personally, I more or less have, from left to right, 14,15,16,17 degrees input for the first 4 columns from the 400mg air charge row and above. Then go back to the 400-450mg air charge rows and start removing timing as you work your way down to the very bottom left corner of the table/bottom row where ideally, you probably want to be around 5-6 degrees. Alot of people will tell you to add 10% airflow to your start-up airflow. But I'm not one of them. It's really not necessary, at least not for any cam installs that I've been a part of. Maybe it's needed for some of the cams out there that are way too big for the 5,7L hemi anyway, but my 228/238 .611/.602 113.5 LSA cam starts up right away and every time with a start-up airflow table like this, from left to right in lbs/min (5.50, 4.50, 4.00, .75, .65, 0, 0, 0, 0). Add airflow to the stock values if you so choose. You'll just have a start-up that is a bit louder than say a start-up using my inputs paired with lower airflow values in the 0.00, 0.02, 0.05, 0.1 area of the main throttle body airflow table (The first 4 inputs from the top). And sure, you can cut 5% from your VE in the idle area to lean out the idle a bit, but again, just preference and like everything else covered thus far, doing so or not should not make or break whether it starts up or not. If you have Comp Cam's 5761 phase limiter installed, there is no reason VVT should be disabled. If you have part 5760 installed (Phaser lock-out) then yes, disable VVT. If the Comp Cam's 5761 cam phaser limiter is installed correctly, and everything with the cam install and engine build is mechanically correct, it should start, whether VVT is disabled or not. You can max out torque delta and delta faults. For P2172, P2173, P2174 and P2175, I have input 100kpa, 100lh/hr, 100kpa, -100kpa respectively. Don't really know that these are max values or not, but they seem to work none-the-less. As for setting any negative values in the min spark table to 5 degrees. This will depend on whether you want an aggressive cam chop or not as I see. Personally, Ive got my cam choppin' ridiculously hard, so I can't say that I set all of my negative values to +5 degrees. If you don't care about the lope/chop, then yea, set the negatives to +5 degrees. And there seems to be a few methods to go about maximizing your cam's chop/lope. Personally, I have quite the opposite and have all kinds of negative timing values in my idle area of my minimum spark table. Thats just my preference. So, from 500 rpm through 900/1000 rpm (first 3 or 4 columns) and between air charges 150mg and 300mg, I have between -19 to -25 degrees timing in this little square/rectangle containing I believe 12 blocks in the idle area. And then as I work away from this area, my timing increases to positive values somewhat quickly to help keep my truck from wanting to shut off when coming out of the idle timing area of the minimum spark table. Setting your FA ratio to 12.0 AFR is also unnecessary. If you want to set your stoich in the fueling>General tab to .0720, as well as your Bank1 and Bank 2 Goal AFR tables in Fueling> Oxygen Sensors so that your commanded stoic is more like 13.5-14 instead of 14.7 I'd say that's probably ok. But 12.0 AFR is prob too much. Unless of course you're doing builds like Purple Ram where it may be optimal to run it "Pig Rich". These are just my opinions on how to handle a cam, but at the very least I know this works and is working well for me.
    Last edited by Spray-Cam Hell-Ram; 09-02-2023 at 12:07 PM.
    2016 Ram CCSB Forged NA 396ci Stroker
    +2.5cc Flat/Dome Mahle Power-Pak Forged Pistons w/13.2/1 CR on E85
    Forged Manley 4.05" Stroke Crank/Speed Master Valvetrain
    Race Ported Eagles/Titanium 2.12"/Titanium 1.62" Valves
    Custom Cam 235/249 .629/.629 111LSA 110ICL+1Adv
    Ported Holley Hi-Ram Intake/NXpress Hi-Ram NO2 Plate kit w/250 Shot(4 sec)
    Tx Spd 2" Long Tubes/Active Viper Hood/2-Step
    ATI SD w/15% UD/Dual 450 Pumps/Fuel Cell in Bed/Demon 700cc Inj
    3800 stall/Det Tru-Trac/410 Gears

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Spray-Cam Hell-Ram View Post
    Ok. Now you'll likely get a lot of different opinions on how to go about this but as far as I am concerned, 1/2 to 2/3 of that list is either not really necessary, or could be incorrect, depending on your preferences for idle, start-up, ect. For example, would you be looking for some cam chop at idle in park, or even when stationary in drive? If not, then sure, flatline first 4 columns to I'd say 14 from about the 400-450 air charge row and above only. Personally, I more or less have, from left to right, 14,15,16,17 degrees input for the first 4 columns from the 400mg air charge row and above. Then go back to the 400-450mg air charge rows and start removing timing as you work your way down to the very bottom left corner of the table/bottom row where ideally, you probably want to be around 5-6 degrees. Alot of people will tell you to add 10% airflow to your start-up airflow. But I'm not one of them. It's really not necessary, at least not for any cam installs that I've been a part of. Maybe it's needed for some of the cams out there that are way too big for the 5,7L hemi anyway, but my 228/238 .611/.602 113.5 LSA cam starts up right away and every time with a start-up airflow table like this, from left to right in lbs/min (5.50, 4.50, 4.00, .75, .65, 0, 0, 0, 0). Add airflow to the stock values if you so choose. You'll just have a start-up that is a bit louder than say a start-up using my inputs paired with lower airflow values in the 0.00, 0.02, 0.05, 0.1 area of the main throttle body airflow table (The first 4 inputs from the top). And sure, you can cut 5% from your VE in the idle area to lean out the idle a bit, but again, just preference and like everything else covered thus far, doing so or not should not make or break whether it starts up or not. If you have Comp Cam's 5761 phase limiter installed, there is no reason VVT should be disabled. If you have part 5760 installed (Phaser lock-out) then yes, disable VVT. If the Comp Cam's 5761 cam phaser limiter is installed correctly, and everything with the cam install and engine build is mechanically correct, it should start, whether VVT is disabled or not. You can max out torque delta and delta faults. For P2172, P2173, P2174 and P2175, I have input 100kpa, 100lh/hr, 100kpa, -100kpa respectively. Don't really know that these are max values or not, but they seem to work none-the-less. As for setting any negative values in the min spark table to 5 degrees. This will depend on whether you want an aggressive cam chop or not as I see. Personally, Ive got my cam choppin' ridiculously hard, so I can't say that I set all of my negative values to +5 degrees. If you don't care about the lope/chop, then yea, set the negatives to +5 degrees. And there seems to be a few methods to go about maximizing your cam's chop/lope. Personally, I have quite the opposite and have all kinds of negative timing values in my idle area of my minimum spark table. Thats just my preference. So, from 500 rpm through 900/1000 rpm (first 3 or 4 columns) and between air charges 150mg and 300mg, I have between -19 to -25 degrees timing in this little square/rectangle containing I believe 12 blocks in the idle area. And then as I work away from this area, my timing increases to positive values somewhat quickly to help keep my truck from wanting to shut off when coming out of the idle timing area of the minimum spark table. Setting your FA ratio to 12.0 AFR is also unnecessary. If you want to set your stoich in the fueling>General tab to .0720, as well as your Bank1 and Bank 2 Goal AFR tables in Fueling> Oxygen Sensors so that your commanded stoic is more like 13.5-14 instead of 14.7 I'd say that's probably ok. But 12.0 AFR is prob too much. Unless of course you're doing builds like Purple Ram where it may be optimal to run it "Pig Rich". These are just my opinions on how to handle a cam, but at the very least I know this works and is working well for me.
    Thank you for the help, run the NN or go speed density? For the VVT, it won't start with it enabled even varying the throttle. I did not do or witness any of the motor work and I agree the motor should run with the VVT enabled. The exhaust cam centerline angle in the log without VVT 95.6? at start up/idle and with VVT the angle is 128?. I changed the intake and exhaust normal desired tables to 95 ex and 135 int (center point between the lobes is 115?, based on the reciprocal nature of how dodge looks at their cam positions. Correct me if I'm wrong). I'm going to try the file newreadVVTtest3 to see if it starts, then log min and max cam angles available and set their tables accordingly.

    I am attaching newbaseVVTtest4 with all of your suggestions, could you check my work?

    newreadVVTtest4.hpt
    Last edited by Wayne Presley; 09-02-2023 at 05:04 PM.

  7. #7
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    128 degrees for exhaust cam centerline could potentially be correct, perhaps giving you an operating range for the exhaust cam between 121.5 - 134.5 maybe. I need to brush up a bit on the comp cam cam phaser limiter. I seem to mostly deal with phaser lock-out set-ups. I know that my logs show 128 degrees for my exhaust cam phaser lock-out anyway. Watching your logs just now, I'm not really sure why it has your exhaust cam centerline showing to be at 95.5 degrees and intake cam center at 134.5 degrees. Seems like those two if anything should be reversed. I'm going to try to look into this a little deeper in the meantime. As far as your intake cam tables go, just put all of them back to stock and you'll never need to look at or touch any of the intake tables moving forward at all. Making changes in these intake tables can only create the potential for harming your engine. You don't have an intake cam per say so these tables do nothing more than serve as a reference. If summing up the intake tables in a single word.... redundant. I'm going to lay out 2 things I want you to try out here, and so I can better help you, report back and let me know exactly how each one plays out and log both. I'm going to attach 2 diff tunes. Let me know what each one does and if either of these start it or try to start it. Be sure to reset adaptives and fuel before trying to start it up with each tune. Thanks.
    Last edited by Spray-Cam Hell-Ram; 09-03-2023 at 01:17 PM.
    2016 Ram CCSB Forged NA 396ci Stroker
    +2.5cc Flat/Dome Mahle Power-Pak Forged Pistons w/13.2/1 CR on E85
    Forged Manley 4.05" Stroke Crank/Speed Master Valvetrain
    Race Ported Eagles/Titanium 2.12"/Titanium 1.62" Valves
    Custom Cam 235/249 .629/.629 111LSA 110ICL+1Adv
    Ported Holley Hi-Ram Intake/NXpress Hi-Ram NO2 Plate kit w/250 Shot(4 sec)
    Tx Spd 2" Long Tubes/Active Viper Hood/2-Step
    ATI SD w/15% UD/Dual 450 Pumps/Fuel Cell in Bed/Demon 700cc Inj
    3800 stall/Det Tru-Trac/410 Gears

  8. #8
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    go into scanner and delete all the cam channels you are logging

    connect

    repoll

    ex cam.png

    and add just that ^^^

    make another log

    if your ex CL is really 95 degres something is wrong because it should not be able to retard that far *even if the tune was telling it to
    Last edited by LilSick; 09-04-2023 at 01:18 AM. Reason: *

  9. #9
    Advanced Tuner f.creek-ranch's Avatar
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    What, if the failure comes from a wrong installation of spring or chain ?

    I wouldn’t trust the installation, did you take a look at the timing yet ?

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Spray-Cam Hell-Ram View Post
    128 degrees for exhaust cam centerline could potentially be correct, perhaps giving you an operating range for the exhaust cam between 121.5 - 134.5 maybe. I need to brush up a bit on the comp cam cam phaser limiter. I seem to mostly deal with phaser lock-out set-ups. I know that my logs show 128 degrees for my exhaust cam phaser lock-out anyway. Watching your logs just now, I'm not really sure why it has your exhaust cam centerline showing to be at 95.5 degrees and intake cam center at 134.5 degrees. Seems like those two if anything should be reversed. I'm going to try to look into this a little deeper in the meantime. As far as your intake cam tables go, just put all of them back to stock and you'll never need to look at or touch any of the intake tables moving forward at all. Making changes in these intake tables can only create the potential for harming your engine. You don't have an intake cam per say so these tables do nothing more than serve as a reference. If summing up the intake tables in a single word.... redundant. I'm going to lay out 2 things I want you to try out here, and so I can better help you, report back and let me know exactly how each one plays out and log both. I'm going to attach 2 diff tunes. Let me know what each one does and if either of these start it or try to start it. Be sure to reset adaptives and fuel before trying to start it up with each tune. Thanks.
    Heading out to try these. The non VVT tune exhaust centerline desired angle is at 120 degree at the hit of the starter and and stays there but the actual goes from 128degree down to 96degree when the oil pressure builds up .58 seconds later. The VVT tune has actual cam angle at 128 degree continuously. The startVVT log shows no commanded cam angle and the log is a continuous crank even though the RPM is dropping out. Also getting P0016 crank/cam position correlation error code. The phaser instructions were in the truck and list the phaser as a 14 degree adjustment sweep.

    Quote Originally Posted by LilSick View Post
    go into scanner and delete all the cam channels you are logging

    connect

    repoll

    ex cam.png

    and add just that ^^^

    make another log

    if your ex CL is really 95 degres something is wrong because it should not be able to retard that far *even if the tune was telling it to
    I agree that it should not move that far. I'll change the PID

    Quote Originally Posted by f.creek-ranch View Post
    What, if the failure comes from a wrong installation of spring or chain ?

    I wouldn?t trust the installation, did you take a look at the timing yet ?
    I'm beginning to think that is an issue as I'm getting P0016 crank/cam position correlation error code.
    Last edited by Wayne Presley; 09-04-2023 at 11:10 AM. Reason: forum doesn't like the degree symbol for some reason..

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    Im fairy certain that your cam has been installed incorrectly and is not properly in time with your crank. Also explains why your intake and exhaust center line angles are reversed. The Poo16 code is just the icing on the cake at this point.
    2016 Ram CCSB Forged NA 396ci Stroker
    +2.5cc Flat/Dome Mahle Power-Pak Forged Pistons w/13.2/1 CR on E85
    Forged Manley 4.05" Stroke Crank/Speed Master Valvetrain
    Race Ported Eagles/Titanium 2.12"/Titanium 1.62" Valves
    Custom Cam 235/249 .629/.629 111LSA 110ICL+1Adv
    Ported Holley Hi-Ram Intake/NXpress Hi-Ram NO2 Plate kit w/250 Shot(4 sec)
    Tx Spd 2" Long Tubes/Active Viper Hood/2-Step
    ATI SD w/15% UD/Dual 450 Pumps/Fuel Cell in Bed/Demon 700cc Inj
    3800 stall/Det Tru-Trac/410 Gears

  12. #12
    Advanced Tuner PurpleRam's Avatar
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    128 to 95? That’s 33 degrees of swing WITH a comp cams phase limiter?……….
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  13. #13
    Advanced Tuner PurpleRam's Avatar
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    I know spray ram touched on this but, every thing intake cam, leave stock.
    NN vs Speed density, till you have a good grasp on NN, go speed density.

    But none of that matters at this point, need to figure out if the cam was installed properly (ie(timing marks). Another thing to think about is, comp could have sent or package the wrong phaser, which can trigger the p0016, with VVT disabled, it starts(correct), with it enabled it doesn’t, , during cranking the cam is supposed to be fully advanced, and retards as needed during acceleration, sooooo if the ecu doesn’t see the cam retard during its initial crank and return to full advance during the next crank(aka start up) (VVT enabled) it thinks the oil control valve has failed. Clear code start with VVT DISABLED, it tosses code again, cam is off by a few teeth.
    Last edited by PurpleRam; 09-05-2023 at 07:53 AM. Reason: Too early, 3 Germans yelling about drag coefficient behind me
    04 GTX........ 8.91@151mph 392Ci G3Hemi NA 3600lbs 2.6HP/CI Naturally Aspirated
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  14. #14
    Advanced Tuner PurpleRam's Avatar
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    Ok let me explain, you hit the key, during the first revolution the cam is fully advanced (resting position), the 2nd revolution the the oil vavle(solenoid) pumps the phaser full of oil and retards the cam, the ecu sees the swing , 3rd revolution the cam will show full advance again ,if the ecu doesn’t see the swing it thinks the ocv is bad……
    04 GTX........ 8.91@151mph 392Ci G3Hemi NA 3600lbs 2.6HP/CI Naturally Aspirated
    05 GTxtreme 9:45@142mph 426Ci G3Hemi NA 4000lbs
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  15. #15

  16. #16
    Advanced Tuner PurpleRam's Avatar
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    The 3 intake pids no need to log those, just the 3 exhaust pids
    04 GTX........ 8.91@151mph 392Ci G3Hemi NA 3600lbs 2.6HP/CI Naturally Aspirated
    05 GTxtreme 9:45@142mph 426Ci G3Hemi NA 4000lbs
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    post the tunes so we can see what switch(s) were flipped that made it supposedly move

    looking at just the log it looks more like the cam is locked... more than the cam is limited

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by LilSick View Post
    post the tunes so we can see what switch(s) were flipped that made it supposedly move

    looking at just the log it looks more like the cam is locked... more than the cam is limited
    both tunes are attached above in Spray-Cams post.

    His non VVT VE tun ran overall better than my non VVT NN tune but the truck was dog slow with either. His or my VVT tunes will not start.They crank continuously (until the starter times out) and the RPM reads, then drops out, reads then drops out. If it was a Haltech, MS3pro or other stand alone I would say it had got crank position, gat a partial cam synch then reset back to zero and started over

  19. #19
    So the O2 sensor voltage goes between 2.7 volts to 3.3 volts in CL, does this truck have wideband sensors or is there a multiplier going on? I'll put the wideband from my dyno on it once it is ready to tie it down and tune it. There isn't a PID for actual lambda so trying to get a ball park on the narrow band voltage. On GM cars 950mv is below .80 lambda.

  20. #20
    Advanced Tuner PurpleRam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Presley View Post
    So the O2 sensor voltage goes between 2.7 volts to 3.3 volts in CL, does this truck have wideband sensors or is there a multiplier going on? I'll put the wideband from my dyno on it once it is ready to tie it down and tune it. There isn't a PID for actual lambda so trying to get a ball park on the narrow band voltage. On GM cars 950mv is below .80 lambda.
    Yeah....(2.7V o2)That's not right, something is off and also your Barometric pressure is 6.5Bar(89.X PSI) and Local air temperature is -81, Not sure where on Earth your located at but I sure as Crap would want to live in those ambient conditions.
    No this truck will not have an OEM WB, according to the VIn it's an 2011 4x4 1500,
    My(long lost, Niece is beating the crap out of it) 2014 Ram o2's use to read 2.5-3.5V , honestly, I never bothered to ask why, I think most anything with a Gpec controller reads that way....all I can say is Phucking Mopar WTH, My 1320 Challenger I don't even bother with O2 OEM channels.

    you're Logging the OEM EQ, set up a graph to use it, it's not perfect but it's better than most give it credit for.
    04 GTX........ 8.91@151mph 392Ci G3Hemi NA 3600lbs 2.6HP/CI Naturally Aspirated
    05 GTxtreme 9:45@142mph 426Ci G3Hemi NA 4000lbs
    G3 Hemi Videos

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UClS...5mXdDR5sOxs10Q