6L80 bad slip/flare shifting from 3-4

[TURBOSILVERADO11]

Feels good, gives the back end a good wiggle, kills the trans too unfortunately. TM is necessary, especially with your power level. Greg is doing a good job for you. Next trans you will be right once he's finished.

The weight is a big factor to, dang truck is right over 5400lbs

[TURBOSILVERADO11]

You'll have to post a screenshot of what you're talking about on that one. I still haven't seen it in the log. Probably looked right over it. If it's happening during a shift that's just tm. Tm even when disabled will still be used if the transmission control module sees something wrong with a shift as a last ditch effort to save itself. Otherwise I'll need to be pointed to what your talking about in a specific log with a time stamp

Time on the log was 3:07:14, I was just going to put a picture from my phone on here but it won't up load

[TransGo Robert]

Dang, that's what I figured. How much is it supposed to slip WOT? It's always been about 2000 rpm, is that about right or is that to much? Thanks for all the help!

That PID you are looking at for the Transmission slip is useless during the shifts. It goes up to 2000 or as soon as the computer start to initiate the shift. In reality the shift will not occur for another 1/2 second or so, during that period that number you see means absolutely nothing. There are 4 phase to a synchronized shift, first you have the fill fase, then the torque phase, followed by the inertia phase where the shift finally happens and then finally the holding phase once the change in ratio is fully accomplish. During the fill and torque phase nothing at all happens ratio wise, it has not shifted yet, but that abritrairy trans slip parameter shows is slipping like crazy. If it was really slipping like that, the little paper clutch would fry to a crisp on the very first shift. Also when you do a WOT shift like that, you have quite a shift shock 1-2, some tire spin, so it will look on that PID as if it is slipping up and down when in reality it is not slipping at all. For that reason I personally never pay attention to that PID and instead create a math channel calculating the ratio (ISS divided by OSS).

Once you have the math channel graphed, looking at the ratio you can tell right away if the transmissions is slipping or not. First gear needs to be 4.02 to 1, 2nd 2.36, 3rd 1.53, 4th 1.15, 5th 0.85, and 6th 0.66.

Here's two screenshots showing what I am talking about. First one shows an orange circle where you are slipping in 4th just before it attempt to make a 4-5 shift. It is subtle but it is there. Then in the red circle is the slip when it tried to make a 4-5 shift.
Slip 4th and 5th.png

On the next screenshot, you can see in the red circle where it slips in 6th when the computer commands lock-up and then in recuperate and goes back down to 0.66
Slip 6th.png

[TransGo Robert]

Circle D runs a whole lot of clutch clearance and part of the operation of the controller is to apply then bleed back off the hold pressure, kind of a constant fight by itself, then you throw the bigger clutch clearance into the equation and well things are just that much harder to get right. You wind up having to jack apply pressure and max pressure way up and then play with the regulator settings. For some reason every circle d seems different too, like maybe not as tight of controls in place?

If you have a log of one causing you grief let me look at it. Many of the things you wrote I can't quite follow. The clutch clearance in the converter should not vary much from one from one to another even for multi disk, that clearance is really critical. However the mass of the clutch varies a lot when it comes to different race oriented converters. The OD clearance between the clutch and the cover is also something that varies a bunch and can cause all kinds of problems. I am not sure what you mean by constant fight by itself, and then this part "You wind up having to jack apply pressure and max pressure way up and then play with the regulator settings" got me a bit confuse. I think I need to see a concrete example to be able to grasp what the issue is and what you do to counteract it. The average issue with aftermarket converters usually are all related to the flat billet cover and piston (factory has a taper and flex to control the app rate) as well as the lining they use which grabs too quickly unlike the OE woven carbon that by its very nature cannot make a perfect seal when touching the cover. The only way to get those to work half way decently is to switch the command to basically and ON/OFF apply. However back to what you had mentioned originally, it seems to you were talking about having problem holding the clutch applied as if it was slipping when you commanded it not too. If that's the case then we are dealing with a very unusual issue for this transmissions, it does not take much pressure at all to keep that clutch from slipping even with a factory single disc and added engine power.

[TURBOSILVERADO11]

That PID you are looking at for the Transmission slip is useless during the shift. It goes up to 2000 or as soon as the computer start to initiate the shift. In reality the shift will not occur for another 1/2 second or so, during that period that number you see means absolutely nothing. There are 4 phase to a synchronized shift, first you have the fill fase, then the torque phase, followed by the inertia phase where the shift finally happens and then finally the holding phase once the change in ratio is fully accomplish. During the fill and torque phase nothing at all happens ratio wise, it has not shifted yet, but that abritrairy trans slip parameter shows is slipping like crazy. If it was really slipping like that, the little paper clutch would fry to a crisp on the very first shift. Also when you do a WOT shift like that, you have quite a shift shock 1-2, some tire spin, so it will look on that PID as if it is slipping up and down when in reality it is not slipping at all. For that reason I personally never pay attention to that PID and instead create a math channel calculating the ratio (ISS divided by OSS).

Once you have the math channel graphed, looking at the ratio you can tell right away if the transmissions is slipping or not. First gear needs to be 4.02 to 1, 2nd 2.36, 3rd 1.53, 4th 1.15, 5th 0.85, and 6th 0.66.

Here's two screenshots showing what I am talking about. First one shows an orange circle where you are slipping in 4th just before it attempt to make a 4-5 shift. It is subtle but it is there. Then in the red circle is the slip when it tried to make a 4-5 shift.
Slip 4th and 5th.png

On the next screenshot, you can see in the red circle where it slips in 6th when the computer commands lock-up and then in recuperate and goes back down to 0.66
Slip 6th.png

I haven't seen it like that before, I'll definitely have to figure how to data log like that. Thanks for all your help on here!

[GHuggins]

If you have a log of one causing you grief let me look at it. Many of the things you wrote I can't quite follow. The clutch clearance in the converter should not vary much from one from one to another even for multi disk, that clearance is really critical. However the mass of the clutch varies a lot when it comes to different race oriented converters. The OD clearance between the clutch and the cover is also something that varies a bunch and can cause all kinds of problems. I am not sure what you mean by constant fight by itself, and then this part "You wind up having to jack apply pressure and max pressure way up and then play with the regulator settings" got me a bit confuse. I think I need to see a concrete example to be able to grasp what the issue is and what you do to counteract it. The average issue with aftermarket converters usually are all related to the flat billet cover and piston (factory has a taper and flex to control the app rate) as well as the lining they use which grabs too quickly unlike the OE woven carbon that by its very nature cannot make a perfect seal when touching the cover. The only way to get those to work half way decently is to switch the command to basically and ON/OFF apply. However back to what you had mentioned originally, it seems to you were talking about having problem holding the clutch applied as if it was slipping when you commanded it not too. If that's the case then we are dealing with a very unusual issue for this transmissions, it does not take much pressure at all to keep that clutch from slipping even with a factory single disc and added engine power.

The problem mostly just lies with the circle D's. Seems like they're very loose with their clutches.

The way the OS operates on these is it will apply the clutch at full hold pressure then it will bleed the pressure back off until slip starts then reapply pressure - a roller coaster act. These are the regulator and regulator gain settings that you have to raise up quite a bit to keep it from bleeding so much pressure back off. Then on top of that there are max pressure and apply pressure settings that also have to be raised a lot.

Then you take a different converter from another company it may give you whiplash when it engages or even a different converter from Circle D. Just doesn't seem to be that consistent in the AM.

If your kit increases line pressure 10psi plus aids in converter control, I see that as a plus.

[TransGo Robert]

The problem mostly just lies with the circle D's. Seems like they're very loose with their clutches.

The way the OS operates on these is it will apply the clutch at full hold pressure then it will bleed the pressure back off until slip starts then re-apply pressure - a roller coaster act. These are the regulator and regulator gain settings that you have to raise up quite a bit to keep it from bleeding so much pressure back off. Then on top of that there are max pressure and apply pressure settings that also have to be raised a lot.

Then you take a different converter from another company it may give you whiplash when it engages or even a different converter from Circle D. Just doesn't seem to be that consistent in the AM.

If your kit increases line pressure 10psi plus aids in converter control, I see that as a plus.

What you describe is classic case of issues you get with aftermarket converters that use flat billet cover, piston and non woven carbon lining. I call it the funky chicken as the computer tries to get the darn thing to slip 20 rpm or so (or 40 when AFM is on) but can't it either locks or unlock. A bottle of Ford XL-3 additive does wonder to help with that, but many times you still have to play with the tune to get it to work properly. Our kit unfortunately does not do anything to help with that problem. It will help things only when using the right lining and regular stamps steel piston with a taper in it. Then it makes for a much nicer and more precise slip control then OE.

[TURBOSILVERADO11]

Haven't messed with the tune any this week. Where do I need to start to get the torque model's closer? Do I just need to have a torque histogram? I want to try and have the torque model dialed in before anything is done to the transmission and while I can still go WOT in 1st 2nd and 3rd.

[GHuggins]

It takes a little bit more than that unfortunately.

Once you're sure the airmass side is roughly close for the build - and you can use other shown dyno charts if you like for that and just calculate driveline loss into it to get your peak numbers then this will have your airmass side somewhat close to begin with to speed things up. I also recommend starting over with a stock torque model and make your initial adjustments to it. Log delivered torque from there with filters for cam angle and timing (allow a 5 degree window in the filters) for both map and airfmass. Set the axis up like what's in the calibration. Make sure your MAF and VE tables are pretty close, which again is why it's important even on SD tunes. Plug the logged values straight into the calibration. Keep in mind delivered caps at 640, so you're primarily shaping things based off of the lower loads and then interpolating upward from there. I've used this on 1000hp builds, so it works for them too.

Here's where things get a little tricky. On the map side - it will always report lower the majority of the time due to how the VE table was shifted during it's dial in, so you have to find where your airmass side maxed out - see what that torque number peaks around then plug that back into the map side where it's peaking and then interpolate to balance the models out. Once that is done the transmission should be shifting correctly or more like it did OE with the added benefit of more line pressure for holding the gears and so forth.

If you're running a cam, the idle is harder to dial in and requires some math, but can be done with math to get it close and then requires some fine tweaking from there.

[TURBOSILVERADO11]

It takes a little bit more than that unfortunately.

Once you're sure the airmass side is roughly close for the build - and you can use other shown dyno charts if you like for that and just calculate driveline loss into it to get your peak numbers then this will have your airmass side somewhat close to begin with to speed things up. I also recommend starting over with a stock torque model and make your initial adjustments to it. Log delivered torque from there with filters for cam angle and timing (allow a 5 degree window in the filters) for both map and airfmass. Set the axis up like what's in the calibration. Make sure your MAF and VE tables are pretty close, which again is why it's important even on SD tunes. Plug the logged values straight into the calibration. Keep in mind delivered caps at 640, so you're primarily shaping things based off of the lower loads and then interpolating upward from there. I've used this on 1000hp builds, so it works for them too.

Here's where things get a little tricky. On the map side - it will always report lower the majority of the time due to how the VE table was shifted during it's dial in, so you have to find where your airmass side maxed out - see what that torque number peaks around then plug that back into the map side where it's peaking and then interpolate to balance the models out. Once that is done the transmission should be shifting correctly or more like it did OE with the added benefit of more line pressure for holding the gears and so forth.

If you're running a cam, the idle is harder to dial in and requires some math, but can be done with math to get it close and then requires some fine tweaking from there.

How much would it be for you to fix it? I want to learn how to do it, but I'm getting tried of trying to fix the crap and get everything dialed in that should have already been dialed in by the one that was supposed to tune it right the last time. I had to change a bunch of stuff because he wouldn't listen to what I was telling him the truck was doing. When the afr gauge goes to 12.5 and the log shows. 85 or .86 lambda at WOT above 5700 rpms that's lean, not the afr gauge lagging. I told him three times the virtual torque was way low WOT, he never raised it I had to raise it. So the torque model has probably never been close to being right. I got 6 weeks left before the track closes for the winter, truck has hooked only 3 or 4 times out of the last 25 or more runs, I want to focus on getting it to hook and leave hard to run in the 6s so I can turn the boost up a little more, but im constantly worrying about if something going to happen because of the tune. I know the trans is going to have to be rebuild again, but might as well use the 3 good gears for the rest of the year. Sorry for the rant, just still irritated the tune is not right and the trans is going bad with only 5000 miles on it. For anybody reading this that might be looking for a tuner, never use Pat!

[GHuggins]

Shoot me an email if you want to go that route. Pat G? He's usually not that bad, so not sure what happened there, but everything being off is what killed it...

[TURBOSILVERADO11]

Shoot me an email if you want to go that route. Pat G? He's usually not that bad, so not sure what happened there, but everything being off is what killed it...

Ok, yeah it was him. Took just about 3 months to get the first tune, he only sent 5 total over 6 months time. I'd have to send 2 or 3 emails and text to him before he would answer a question. Had to send the data logs several times, he claimed he never got them. Truck had bad throttle response down low, and was really lazy when you'd rev it compared to how it was before. Afr was jumping all around driving normal. Truck just wasn't as fast as it was before.

[GHuggins]

Dang, I get swamped. Usually run wot from 6 to 10:30ish for the second round - first round comes in slow in the morning then I deal with some straglers up till 2am depending on where in the world they're coming from, but I always answer emails the day I get them or at least try to. It may take 1 or 2 days to get the base out depending on background tables, but I try to get it out as quick as possible. 6 months for a base and 4 revisions. That sucks.

My email's in my signature. I'll check spam just in case. It'll take a few logs to get the tm right, so just send it when you can.

[TURBOSILVERADO11]

Dang, I get swamped. Usually run wot from 6 to 10:30ish for the second round - first round comes in slow in the morning then I deal with some straglers up till 2am depending on where in the world they're coming from, but I always answer emails the day I get them or at least try to. It may take 1 or 2 days to get the base out depending on background tables, but I try to get it out as quick as possible. 6 months for a base and 4 revisions. That sucks.

My email's in my signature. I'll check spam just in case. It'll take a few logs to get the tm right, so just send it when you can.

Sorry, I wasn't talking about you. I was talking about dealing with Pat. I haven't emailed you yet, I will email you tonight or tomorrow.

[GHuggins]

Sorry, I wasn't talking about you. I was talking about dealing with Pat. I haven't emailed you yet, I will email you tonight or tomorrow.

I know. I was just meaning that Pat should have done better

[TURBOSILVERADO11]

I know. I was just meaning that Pat should have done better

I figured you were, just wanted to make sure

[Alvin]

Thinks for the replies I just now saw them. I was messing with it last night and I added around 20% to the base pressure on the 3-4 shift and the 6-4 downshift. I did the reset preset and after about 20 to 25 miles it was back to normal. I have added to the virtual torque a couple of times already, I guess I need to add more? it defiantly has the right injector data. Here's the tune if ya'll want to take a look.
Attachment 136706

I have no idea how this thread evolved but looking at this first file..

It looks like they are chasing shift firmness with pressure - not the way to go, at least at first.
and its commanding an almost half second 3-4 WOT shift. That is a lazy shift. A more appropriate value would be in the 0.15-0.25 second range.

Changing the virtual torque all you want will not matter if it is still asking for a half second long WOT shift.

[Alvin]

Capture.PNG

This what I mean.. This .40 second shift time (+adders) is what the TCM is going to be shooting for no matter what you do to VT, shift pressures, TM, etc.. If you happen to get it to shift faster its going to learn back down to that 0.40.. Fix the target shift times FIRST. When transmissions are worked like this they will often have a slip-bang shift quality.

Asking for a such a long shift is not good for the transmission and you may have hurt it at this point. It works in a OEM setting at OEM power for comfort. It isn't good for making the parts last.

[GHuggins]

I fixed the shift times with one I had given him to try. Clutches are already damaged...

[Alvin]

I fixed the shift times with one I had given him to try. Clutches are already damaged...

Which one.. cause that screen shot is the last file I saw you posted. *See the file name at the top of the screen shot* I could be wrong.