Knock levels

[edcmat-l1]

To the op and other would-be knock sensor users I propose this questions to consider,

As you increase the sensitivity or decrease the sensitivity of the knock sensors and begin to detect knock (or not)

A. How will you know whether any knock is 'real'
B. If the knock sensors do not detect any knock, how will you know that they can detect 'real' knock?
C. will you keep increasing the sensitivity until they do? And then A. again

Experience. I have it and you don't.

[kingtal0n]

You're clueless.

Anybody can say that. Watch

You are clueless

See what I did there?

Use data to make your point. Not words. Its just talking.

Here I discuss the knock activity, pretty old video, has some data though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e12ZPbdo3ys&t=23s


Its not hard to interpret knocking data. Just like internet personality, your name calling and insulting ways, tell me that you are threatened and scared.

When you hide behind the facade pretending to be some expert when you have such limited experience and basic knowledge of signals.

Well. Its like this. The more you know, the less you know. You think you know, which tells me you know nothing. And you think that I think I know, which tells me you have a problem interpreting higher mathematics that do not offer analytical solutions- you lack education in mathematical methods.

This situation is like the weather. Somebody is worried about rain and you looked outside and said its not going to rain. Near sighted response that relies on luck. I pointed out that despite all the technology we have the weather is an unknown, and you called me clueless for it and basically pointed out the window at the obvious lack of clouds.


There is a hurricane coming, though.

[edcmat-l1]

Anybody can say that. Watch

You are clueless

See what I did there?

Use data to make your point. Not words. Its just talking.

Here I discuss the knock activity, pretty old video, has some data though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e12ZPbdo3ys&t=23s


Its not hard to interpret knocking data. Just like internet personality, your name calling and insulting ways, tell me that you are threatened and scared.

When you hide behind the facade pretending to be some expert when you have such limited experience and basic knowledge of signals.

Well. Its like this. The more you know, the less you know. You think you know, which tells me you know nothing. And you think that I think I know, which tells me you have a problem interpreting higher mathematics that do not offer analytical solutions- you lack education in mathematical methods.

This situation is like the weather. Somebody is worried about rain and you looked outside and said its not going to rain. Near sighted response that relies on luck. I pointed out that despite all the technology we have the weather is an unknown, and you called me clueless for it and basically pointed out the window at the obvious lack of clouds.


There is a hurricane coming, though.

You're here telling this guy his knock system in his GEN4 vehicle is worthless. You're also saying it's a bad idea to check to see if the sensors have been desensitized TOO MUCH.

Anyone who has tuned more than 2 of these things knows the combination of desensitized sensors and overly aggressive timing is the kiss of death.

Yeah. You're the smart one here.

[kingtal0n]

Experience. I have it and you don't.

Oh calling me out now?

First, experience is meaningless. You can do something wrong for 20 years and claim 20 years of experience.
Also some people learn faster than others. I can learn in 5 minutes more than somebody will in a lifetime.

But just for fun, Lets play a game based on tuning engines,

I'll wager that in 2003 I already knew more about tuning an engine 20 years ago than you are capable of now.

Here is my evidence, I write auto tuning stand-alone software application in 2003.
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/dfi-...der-950-a.html

Show me some software application you write to assist people with tuning an engine ~20 years ago or even today if you want to beat me with experience with respect to engine tuning.

[kingtal0n]

You're here telling this guy his knock system in his GEN4 vehicle is worthless. You're also saying it's a bad idea to check to see if the sensors have been desensitized TOO MUCH.

Anyone who has tuned more than 2 of these things knows the combination of desensitized sensors and overly aggressive timing is the kiss of death.

Yeah. You're the smart one here.

I hate to say this but I think YOU have the issue with reading comprehension. Its not a bad idea to check if the sensors are- anything. Play with it all you want its fun to learn. Last friday I was messing with some RB25 knock sensors at 30psi on E80 600rwhp. Just looked at the output and adjusted fuel quality etc... Its a tool. Knock sensors are a tool. But they are not dependable when you hand the vehicle over to a customer. Or when a customer on the internet is asking about using them for some concern about knocking. No no no no.

Just don't rely on them. Don't use them to tune the engine.

And nowhere did I mention overly aggressive timing. Why would you even say that? Have you even read my timing strategy? Quick- somebody tell me my timing strategy, I forgot what it was...


/yawn

[edcmat-l1]

Its not a bad idea to check if the sensors are- anything. Play with it all you want its fun to learn. Last friday I was messing with some RB25 knock sensors at 30psi on E80 600rwhp. Just looked at the output and adjusted fuel quality etc... Its a tool. Knock sensors are a tool. But they are not dependable when you hand the vehicle over to a customer. Or when a customer on the internet is asking about using them for some concern about knocking. No no no no.

Just don't rely on them. Don't use them to tune the engine.

Here's where it looks like you have no experience with these systems. They work very well for what they are. Too well actually. That's the whole point. And since your first post you've done nothing but poo poo them and the idea of checking them.

You talk a big game, yet you seem to not understand stoich, or PID controls versus dashpots and now the knock system in GEN4s. Because you write software (because you posted it doesn't mean it's true) does NOT make you a knowledgeable tuner.

[kingtal0n]

Here's where it looks like you have no experience with these systems. They work very well for what they are. Too well actually. That's the whole point. And since your first post you've done nothing but poo poo them and the idea of checking them.

Quote me saying that I don't agree with checking them. Because I distinctly remember saying its fine to use them just don't rely on them and don't use for tuning.

You talk a big game, yet you seem to not understand stoich, or PID controls versus dashpots and now the knock system in GEN4s. Because you write software (because you posted it doesn't mean it's true) does NOT make you a knowledgeable tuner.

You have not seen big game. I could fill this page with successful profitable builds that would alter your perception of what is possible as it did mine.

Every computer is a microcontroller. Like an arduino. I teach arduino in engineering lab to 120 students per semester. We do amplifiers and obstacle avoidance and underwater ROV and basic IO stuff. If you want to convince yourself that I don't understand those basic features then nothing I can say will convince you.
But the stoich thing- that still gets me. To me it is you that does not understand stoich. You seem to think that when the oxygen sensors says lambda=1 that all of the fuel in the chemical reaction has been used up. When in fact no combustion process is 100% efficient and many hydrocarbons are lost into the crevice of the piston rings and boundary layer. You are not seeing a true stoichiometry the oxygen sensor is lying to your face and you believe it because you cannot see the chemical reaction as it proceeds in terms of oxygen radicals. It is a basic chemistry conceptualization and I think if you pick up organic chemistry book and read the first 3 chapters plus the chapter on hydrocarbons you will get it some idea.

[edcmat-l1]

Quote me saying that I don't agree with checking them. Because I distinctly remember saying its fine to use them just don't rely on them and don't use for tuning.

Think about this, it is evidence that the knock sensors are not actually helping or giving useful information when it matters. Just noise. If it was real knock the engine is being damaged, head gasket would be damaged, compression into coolant, water in the oil, all the bad things would happen in a forced induction application. But no, the knock sensors report knock but there is no knock. Or the knock sensors fail to report knock and the engine falls apart, its been ruined. I've never seen a knock sensor actually reporting knock when there was real dangerous knock and if I would have it was already too late damage is done.

Go ahead and fix them so they light up and you get KR all the time and... and thats it. Its just a light on the dash that turns on with no real meaning. Like the gem in diablo 2 lobby.

I'm not sure why you keep saying "use them for tuning". No one is "using them for tuning". Tuning knock sensors is part of tuning any OE controller. But I totally understand coming from you, who advocates disabling closed loop because you think your stoich is better than actual stoich.

There is an acceptable level of knock sensor sensitivity where you allow the sensors to work. To completely discount them as overall nonfunctional or error riddled is to not understand the system. Simple as that.

[kingtal0n]

This might help. I don't agree with tuning for profit but maybe you had no choice. I think it stunted your growth as a tuner but w/e.

Look at these two this is an easy question, why is one high octane fuel and the other is low octane fuel? The answer to this cannot be found online anywhere it is purely conceptual
zero-vs-100-octane.png



I always ask the question when I teach to all students, not give answers. I am not singling you out. Anybody can answer this question feel free to guess. I will answer correctly eventually.
this is not a test its just helping explain the behavior of hydrocarbons to everyone who sees this picture.

[edcmat-l1]

This might help. I don't agree with tuning for profit but maybe you had no choice. I think it stunted your growth as a tuner but w/e.

Look at these two this is an easy question, why is one high octane fuel and the other is low octane fuel? The answer to this cannot be found online anywhere it is purely conceptual
zero-vs-100-octane.png



I always ask the question when I teach to all students, not give answers. I am not singling you out. Anybody can answer this question feel free to guess. I will answer correctly eventually.
this is not a test its just helping explain the behavior of hydrocarbons to everyone who sees this picture.

I don't care. None of that has any bearing on whether or not his knock sensors are or aren't desensitized too much.

If you have relevant information post it up. I'm saying GEN4 knock sensor systems work well for what they are and they have their place. I'm not discounting them, or saying they don't work correctly, or any of the things you seem to be saying.

[kingtal0n]

I'm not sure why you keep saying "use them for tuning". No one is "using them for tuning". Tuning knock sensors is part of tuning any OE controller. But I totally understand coming from you, who advocates disabling closed loop because you think your stoich is better than actual stoich.

lol. Every stand-alone ECU and even the OEM ecu has a lean cruise designation and recommends leaner than stoich for economy.
The manufacturer of aftermarket ECU always recommends a leaner than stoich air fuel ratio for idle and cruise to all engines. Every damn one of them.
The admin on the respective forums also perpetuates this knowledge.

You act like I invented that. Look inside the appropriate OEM ecu for 'lean cruise' did you miss it? Yeah there you go. Did you really believe I invented that? No. So then why do you have an issue when I pull that information out of YOUR computer and relay it back to you?

random
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...post1603850537

Chevrolet's own target air/fuel ratio for fuel injected, solid lifter engines was 15.5:1.

There is an acceptable level of knock sensor sensitivity where you allow the sensors to work. To completely discount them as overall nonfunctional or error riddled is to not understand the system. Simple as that.

I disagree on the basis that your setting is arbitrary. You think that the sensors are 'working' and yet the only way to know for sure is to deliberately knock the engine which if you did would be considered abuse of the customer's property. So you did not do that and have no clue whether the knock sensors actually work or not. They light up with 'mild' and 'false' knock all the time but only the former if the tune is shit and only the latter if they are too sensitive. So which one is it, former or latter? Shit tune or too sensitive? Otherwise why would there be any evidence that they 'work'? Your logic makes no sense. You can't test them properly. You can't adjust them properly. Its arbitrary. You used the word 'a wee bit' which is exactly what I expected.

Good luck with 'wee bit' guys , thats what you get, I think that makes my point for me

[kingtal0n]

I don't care.

You don't care about the behavior of fuels? as a tuner this is not a good sign. I think it shows your true intentions here is profit and minimal work investment. Not to understand the very essence of the energy that runs the engine.


Shame on you, pretending to be a tuner when all you really do is collect files and distribute files and make 'wee bit' random arbitrary adjustments. You are worse than I thought.

[edcmat-l1]

You don't care about the behavior of fuels? as a tuner this is not a good sign. I think it shows your true intentions here is profit and minimal work investment. Not to understand the very essence of the energy that runs the engine.


Shame on you, pretending to be a tuner when all you really do is collect files and distribute files and make 'wee bit' random arbitrary adjustments. You are worse than I thought.

I don't care about your pathetic posts to try and make you look smarter than everyone else.

Instead of posting your drivel, how about you tell the OP what your best professional opinion is on how he should setup and use his knock sensors? Or are you saying he should ignore them? They don't mean anything. Like closed loop or something.

Instead of posting totally irrelevant subject matter, discuss the system in question. Tell us all why it doesn't make sense to set the knock sensors up to actually detect, you know, knock?

[edcmat-l1]

First, experience is meaningless. You can do something wrong for 20 years and claim 20 years of experience.
Also some people learn faster than others. I can learn in 5 minutes more than somebody will in a lifetime.

Ah yeah, the first to discount experience are those that are without it.

But just for fun, Lets play a game based on tuning engines,

I'll wager that in 2003 I already knew more about tuning an engine 20 years ago than you are capable of now.

You don't want to wager anything. By 2003 my career was in full swing. I'm not a braggart though so I'll spare everyone. I will say this much, while you were writing software, I was making big tire cars go fast.

I disagree on the basis that your setting is arbitrary. You think that the sensors are 'working' and yet the only way to know for sure is to deliberately knock the engine which if you did would be considered abuse of the customer's property.

You have no idea how I came to the conclusion that I have. You're assuming. There are many ways of figuring out if they're working, detecting knock, etc. without knocking on someone's engine with a hammer.

Which is really ironic because if you go back to the whole stoich deal, you're trying to talk chemistry and yet you're using a wideband and not a 5 gas analyzer. I'm here to tell you I have more experience with 4 and 5 gas analyzers than you do. So to me, your arrival at your own stoich is "arbitrary".

It is not scientific, contrary to what you try to portray.

Again, just tell the guy how he should be setting up his knock sensors.

[Guy With A Chevy]

I had stopped chasing the knock sensors even though they were in my log earlier. So logging knock retard is pointless as well?

Did not know this was on the second page or I would have left it alone.

[edcmat-l1]

I had stopped chasing the knock sensors even though they were in my log earlier. So logging knock retard is pointless as well?

Did not know this was on the second page or I would have left it alone.

Logging knock retard is not pointless.

[pannetron]

I sense a battle of wits with an unarmed person...