I haven't has much luck with my Glow Shift fuel pressure gauge, but when it breaks, it really breaks and something will obviously be really wrong. And so far it always reads really high when the sender goes bad.Originally Posted by Lxjoshxl
I haven't has much luck with my Glow Shift fuel pressure gauge, but when it breaks, it really breaks and something will obviously be really wrong. And so far it always reads really high when the sender goes bad.
Trying to insert video from phone it drops to 40psi wot is the injectors causing all the the fuel to pull or is that a pump issue?
Last edited by Lxjoshxl; 12-18-2023 at 11:18 AM.
Everything is wrong right. Everything wrong is right. Dear user: Please be sure to perform the comparison I outlined because what you log at 4,400rpm will not match what is on your wideband gauge if you synced analog offset with a low rpm like idle at different electrical load.
[2811.10]*2+10 This is common sense. But it is linear. The curve of voltage difference between wideband gauge and ECU is not linear.
The true formula is this
[2811.10]*2+10 + X where X is the difference in base10 of the ground offset between wideband controller and ECU trying to log at it's own ground offset.
The difference will depend upon grounding and electrical load and temperature. You need to constantly check for X by comparing gauge reading with currently logging values. X will change as you drive and in situations.
Remember I am in open loop so I see everything. I see the raw data feed before the computer does anything. Which is always faster because it is 1 step ahead of predicting state space vectors from feeding back in error signal. You may be looking at a perfect narrowband feed but the analog offset of the wideband will always skew you over X no matter what. The only way to actually see on the wideband gauge what the narrowbands see is to use a CANBUS wideband like the guy in the thread who I am training to think like a mechanic because he asked to go slow and get that training and now anybody can see how it is to be done. My careful surveillance of his wideband character early on assures no matter what the HPtuners scanner says it will match what the narrowband agrees because a canbus isn't an analog situation with an analog offset. And if anybody checks anyone of those 99 logs you will notice narrowband and wideband perfectly agree, he has one, I checked and it works. In other words a narrowband is actually an extremely precise kind of sensor because it is connected directly to the ECU, there is no controller, so the ECU Can agree using a transistor circuit only at one specific spot with the best resolution and we choose lambda=1 to make it useful information. In 2003 I programmed such an array that takes narrowband voltage as a wideband sort of input by converting 0.122mV for example in 18.8:1 and say 387mV is approaching 15.7:1 and this way we have a wideband, kind of. I would let the default assumption interact with user-inputs about the conditions of the plugs so if you are still getting a bit of tan-nes on the tips for example cruising around in the 350 to 400mV ranges you could adjust the analog offset of those values to en-lean or en-rich the narrowband feed based on experimental results from driving the engine. It was also an initial assumption data generated from being lean could be extrapolated to auto-fill rich a/f values initially, so you could nail a 11.8:1 on the first try it was guessed at 744mV but turned out to be 822mV, and we made sure to use a 4-wire narrowband of COULD for that redundant ground which can dramatically improve narrowband accuracy in terms of mV:Wideband use. You take that ground and put it right onthe ECU ground and it should help bring the sensor to the ground level of the ECU as the level changes making the narrowband act like a wideband. I would goto parts stores and just start looking through boxes of narrowbands. Rob at forced fuel injection and I went to some large warehouses to look at piles of OEM parts where you could get 100 or 1,000 of the 4-wire narrowbands or whatever they were for $3/ea. His business was putting stand-alones on forced inducted cars he distributed big stuff for example and produced his own 6AL MSD style ignition multi capacitive discharge box. Like literally had a guy building them upstairs and downstairs buckets and bins of injectors and whatever else. A whole wall of hose ends like a normal horsepower sales type of place would have. He gave me turbochargers for my first small block chevrolet 355 in 2004 when I finally jumped from blowers and nitrous to turbochargers and never looked back. I found in 2003 that You can actually use a narrowband exactly like a wideband by training the analog series of voltage:afr into an array and report fairly confidence average a/f over any range that a wideband can detect. The signal is poor because there is no amplification a narrowband only puts out 1V max and anything between here and there could alter it some at different ground levels throughout operation that the ECU will experience. As I was fairly confident in the code and operation it didn't matter because shortly I had an actual wideband sensor which, the gauge was how we did it. There was no logging for a minute. You just looked at the gauge and remember what the wideband says at some spots on the fuel map, i would write them down on a little paper or napkin "3200r 65kpa 14.5:1" From 04 to 23 I've discovered the gauge will never lie and when something goes bad, I can tell immediately. I've never had a wideband that was working confidently display an incorrect a/f value. Because the information is based on the absolute accuracy of the narrowband inside and my confidence of exhaust system talent. The only thing that can change is the analog offset.
Let this be lesson10 of my tuning instructions:
And yes they knew. But they let you think it anyways because they don't want to be wrong.
Still wrong.Everything is wrong right. Everything wrong is right. Dear user: Please be sure to perform the comparison I outlined because what you log at 4,400rpm will not match what is on your wideband gauge if you synced analog offset with a low rpm like idle at different electrical load.
[2811.10]*2+10 This is common sense. But it is linear. The curve of voltage difference between wideband gauge and ECU is not linear.
The true formula is this
[2811.10]*2+10 + X where X is the difference in base10 of the ground offset between wideband controller and ECU trying to log at it's own ground offset.
The difference will depend upon grounding and electrical load and temperature. You need to constantly check for X by comparing gauge reading with currently logging values. X will change as you drive and in situations.
Remember I am in open loop so I see everything. I see the raw data feed before the computer does anything. Which is always faster because it is 1 step ahead of predicting state space vectors from feeding back in error signal. You may be looking at a perfect narrowband feed but the analog offset of the wideband will always skew you over X no matter what. The only way to actually see on the wideband gauge what the narrowbands see is to use a CANBUS wideband like the guy in the thread who I am training to think like a mechanic because he asked to go slow and get that training and now anybody can see how it is to be done. My careful surveillance of his wideband character early on assures no matter what the HPtuners scanner says it will match what the narrowband agrees because a canbus isn't an analog situation with an analog offset. And if anybody checks anyone of those 99 logs you will notice narrowband and wideband perfectly agree, he has one, I checked and it works. In other words a narrowband is actually an extremely precise kind of sensor because it is connected directly to the ECU, there is no controller, so the ECU Can agree using a transistor circuit only at one specific spot with the best resolution and we choose lambda=1 to make it useful information. In 2003 I programmed such an array that takes narrowband voltage as a wideband sort of input by converting 0.122mV for example in 18.8:1 and say 387mV is approaching 15.7:1 and this way we have a wideband, kind of. I would let the default assumption interact with user-inputs about the conditions of the plugs so if you are still getting a bit of tan-nes on the tips for example cruising around in the 350 to 400mV ranges you could adjust the analog offset of those values to en-lean or en-rich the narrowband feed based on experimental results from driving the engine. It was also an initial assumption data generated from being lean could be extrapolated to auto-fill rich a/f values initially, so you could nail a 11.8:1 on the first try it was guessed at 744mV but turned out to be 822mV, and we made sure to use a 4-wire narrowband of COULD for that redundant ground which can dramatically improve narrowband accuracy in terms of mV:Wideband use. You take that ground and put it right onthe ECU ground and it should help bring the sensor to the ground level of the ECU as the level changes making the narrowband act like a wideband. I would goto parts stores and just start looking through boxes of narrowbands. Rob at forced fuel injection and I went to some large warehouses to look at piles of OEM parts where you could get 100 or 1,000 of the 4-wire narrowbands or whatever they were for $3/ea. His business was putting stand-alones on forced inducted cars he distributed big stuff for example and produced his own 6AL MSD style ignition multi capacitive discharge box. Like literally had a guy building them upstairs and downstairs buckets and bins of injectors and whatever else. A whole wall of hose ends like a normal horsepower sales type of place would have. He gave me turbochargers for my first small block chevrolet 355 in 2004 when I finally jumped from blowers and nitrous to turbochargers and never looked back. I found in 2003 that You can actually use a narrowband exactly like a wideband by training the analog series of voltage:afr into an array and report fairly confidence average a/f over any range that a wideband can detect. The signal is poor because there is no amplification a narrowband only puts out 1V max and anything between here and there could alter it some at different ground levels throughout operation that the ECU will experience. As I was fairly confident in the code and operation it didn't matter because shortly I had an actual wideband sensor which, the gauge was how we did it. There was no logging for a minute. You just looked at the gauge and remember what the wideband says at some spots on the fuel map, i would write them down on a little paper or napkin "3200r 65kpa 14.5:1" From 04 to 23 I've discovered the gauge will never lie and when something goes bad, I can tell immediately. I've never had a wideband that was working confidently display an incorrect a/f value. Because the information is based on the absolute accuracy of the narrowband inside and my confidence of exhaust system talent. The only thing that can change is the analog offset.
Let this be lesson10 of my tuning instructions:
And yes they knew. But they let you think it anyways because they don't want to be wrong.
Read the datasheet for the wideband. It's 0-4V not 5V. 10-17 AFR indicated. The math is right.
Start your own thread about OL vs CL. This one isn't about that.
Fuel isn't pulling. Up there it's in PE. Lean is indicated because the pressure drops, so flow drops.
The fuel pump and/or filter are causing the pressure to drop. Supply isn't meeting demand.
Last edited by SiriusC1024; 12-18-2023 at 04:53 PM.
Even if that is true, you STILL need to explain that the '10' is the variable, '10 + X' which needs to be adjusted by comparing gauge to scanner logging values because the log will never match, the math is never correct for all situations.
I was thinking about logging the fuel pressure transducer through the A/C pressure sensor. Gauge can do what it wants, accurate or not, and voltage will be measured directly. Are the transducers garbage for those?
Last edited by SiriusC1024; 12-18-2023 at 05:07 PM.
No I don't, but I'll explain it on the OL vs CL thread you're about to start.
Your comment originated because you thought I was modifying the offset with a multiplier. That was wrong. You jumped to conclusions instead of getting the background info. Go read the datasheet.
Yeah I've never seen a 0v to 4v wideband before. I did jump to conclusions. I am retired I never thought they would do that but you are right I already checked the part number, it does exist.
The bottom line though is no matter what formula anybody can come up with its wrong, there is always some variable in the offset. It must be accounted for somehow. The gauge will never match the log perfectly. The math must account the brunt of the difference somehow. You can adjust any number but its easier to just add a term because offsets are linear voltage skews at each interval. It doesn't warp the range it just raises or lowers it. ALL analog devices have to deal with this issue somehow. I 100% Guarantee the wideband will not correlate to the scanner at every possible condition it will need an adjustment to the formula in the math somehow over time.
I design voltage curves for sensors and deal with analog input frequently, here is one for my car specifically a transmission fan activation and LCD, because OEM ecu does not control transmission fan I make a darlington pair pull the automotive relay using a cheap 1/8" NPT temperature sensor, here is my curve fit and voltage divider for it
Here is analog voltage inputs to the microcontroller, parsing 0 to 5v
253, 659, 1017 , Different voltage dividers setup for different sensors on the ADC, 5v going in is read as something like 4.857v and converted to a 0 to 1024 range digital step input which refers to analog voltage. It is a digital representation of analog voltage.
The ECU has many influences, injected/induced currents and internal components such as diodes which create voltage drops along the way and narrows sensing voltage range and some causes an offset. This is a typical problem with all analog voltage sensors and why they must have clean power and ground coming and received by the ECU to be at the same level using a voltage controller which takes a much higher voltage like 12v or 9v and turns it into 5v steady input.
https://microchipdeveloper.com/xwiki...-offset-error/
https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/tec...pecifications/
If you understand what analog voltage offset is. Then admit it will be present in the EGR Input signal and actual ADC input voltage can not truly be reported by the scanner. Then you would see why all formulas require further addendum to the math formula supplied so far.
Also if anybody needs a transmission fan and temperature controller my code and setup is available.
Inaccuracy of the wideband inherent to the implementation. More evidence of why we tune CL. Please start a new thread.
The wideband is perfect. Its the analog offset that must be adjusted. You do not yet understand how to do this I guess. That does not mean the owner should not be made aware.
This is absolutely essential knowledge that anybody using EGR or A/C input needs to know.
Dear users. You must adjust the given formula to account for analog offset differences no matter what wideband you are using when its with the analog voltage input to an ECU such as EGR or A/C 0-5v input.
If using a can-bus the wideband is absolutely perfectly accurate all the time in the scanner because it has a digital communication to the ECU tuning input hardware.
You make the gauge match the wideband so you can tune specific situations like high rpm or low rpm. Otherwise whats the point of using a wideband? If the numbers are wrong then its useless. No wonder you hate widebands so much you have not figured out what analog offset is yet.
In this statement you are saying that due to analog offset you will tune closed loop. Which is to say that if you don't know how to properly log the wideband then it is useless. I agree with that if you can't make it accurate then you are stuck, you need to learn how to implement the wideband properly by adjusting the math.
On the other hand this statement also says that if a user has HPtuners canbus interface with a wideband that is 100% accurate all the time, then you would prefer to tune it in open loop instead of closed loop. That is what you are saying. Which is what I am doing in my teaching thread where the user has a canbus wideband so there is no question of accuracy due to implementation. Got you
On topic bro 2007 everybody knows about this. You need to be teaching this and showing people how to do this if you want to actually teach people how to use a wideband properly including yourself.
https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...ll=1#post79124
exactly like I've been sayingand you realize that you have an offset voltage....
so what do you do...
well..this is the "How to"
For Reference The Formula itself is
Volts/ [(0~Max Voltage)/(max AFR - Min AFR)] + [min AFR +any offsets in AFR values]
Absolutely necessary to teach this or you can't use the wideband properly. Holy shit can't believe you didn't realize this you truly are so new to tuning. Its weird because you act like you know so much.so the new formula would be
volts/0.625 + 10.2
if you saw 14.9 then it would be the other direction
volts/0.625 + 9.8
I'm sorry to be so blunt but they give me such shit over how inaccurate a wideband is- and it turns out you guys don't even know how to fucking use one. The sound engineer teaching thread is almost 20 years old by now. No way you can forget this fundamental of analog electronics if you own a scope. This was a setup. They wanted Sirius to fail this for some reason. Maybe They didn't want Sirius to understand that widebands are insanely accurate if you know how to use it properly. But this is a really obvious thing, I Mean everybody knows about the offset for 20 years to use a wideband wtf. I would start asking questions Sirius. Because its like people are withholding information from you to curtail their own ego. Or just plain clueless literally just can't be bothered to understand basic analog electronics principles and then blaming the device when the number is wrong. hah doesn't it just make you want to vomit
Here I'll do it for you.
https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...886#post760886
What are you doing bro. Nice panic posts that link makes absolutely no sense its just you pretending to respond with no explanation for why you didn't know you need to use analog offset to correct a wideband input as per the 2007 instructions laid out previously on this forum. Its right there in front of you. https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...ll=1#post79124 You are in a panic now because your mentor has been using widebands wrong for 17 years apparently. You obviously didn't know about the correct math formula: https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...ll=1#post79124
This is all that it comes down to. Why didn't you use the correct formula.
Why didn't you make a analog offset term. Because you didn't know it exists. You need to confess about using the wrong formula and teaching the wrong formula. For 17 years apparently.
Its already there. If you admit it now you can at least say you are honest.
https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...980#post760980
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